Talk:Black Tom explosion

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to do
I'm putting this on my "to do" list. &mdash; Rickyrab | Talk 03:59, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I started to expand this story. I hope some others can contribute. - Tim Masterson, 11:10 PM, July 29, 2005.
 * Good work. BTW, I wonder if we might want to move this to simply "Black Tom Island", which, for what it's worth, gets just about the same number of google hits as "Black Tom explosion".--Pharos 05:55, 30 July 2005 (UTC)Google hits are not an idication of the visitors to this page as many come here directly from the Wikipedia article on the statue of liberty.Other come from other references and believe it or not Bing, Yahoo, meta-crawler also point to this article..75.17.210.153 (talk) 20:13, 4 July 2009 (UTC)Google This


 * I made a couple of minor edits. This article needs a lot of help. I moved a section speaking about the explosion into the actual explosion section. This required changing a pair of sentences slightly. I also filled out the complete date of the explosion, again.--Celtic hackr (talk) 19:26, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Smudge Pots?
Two of the guards who had lit the smudge pots were immediately arrested. What does this mean? I know what a smudge pot is, but there is no mention of why they would be used. PrometheusX303 21:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Spies
The article contains no mention of flame. Lothar Witzke and Kurt Jahnke who according to this article were the oners who set the blast. Rmhermen 06:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

You're the bomb?
How does this compare to the Halifax Explosion? TREKphiler  hit me ♠  14:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Magazine tag added
Added "magazine" tag to draw attention to blatantly non-encyclopedic narrative style ("Walk the harbor today and you'll find . . .", "My guidebook says that . . . " etc. etc.) --Smithfarm (talk) 13:27, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree. Also, it was clearly not an "act of terrorism".  It was an act of war.JPBarrass (talk) 15:48, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

The "Bath School House Bombing" is clearly a worse act of terrorism.Sammyofish (talk) 07:23, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

TO DO LIST?
This article needs verification in so many places it should almost be started over. Bits and pieces have been cut-and-pasted followed by a total lack of many of the important facts that were in the article the information was taken from. It is clear the USA may have been free to sell ammunition to whomever they wanted but that has nothing to do with Freedom of the Seas no matter how you twist it. Please finish this article or find some who will remain committed to it.75.17.210.153 (talk) 20:21, 4 July 2009 (UTC)Abandoned Article Sniffer

In the section titled 'Act of Aggression' the bombing is characterized as a terrorist act, but since terrorism is usually defined as violent acts attempting to achieve political ends more by frightening the populace than by their practical impact, the term is misused here. This action was clearly ordinary military sabotage and not terrorism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.241.211.163 (talk) 07:29, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Short count
"one of the three covert attacks on mainland U.S." Somebody's (correctly) added the '20 Wall Street bomb, & then there's the '93 WTC bombing... Clearly not only 3. Anybody have a better number? TREKphiler  hit me ♠  02:50, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I changed the phrase to "covert attack by another nation" and dropped the terrorist incidents. The number of of covert terrorist attacks (e.g.30 anarchist bombings in 1919) would be too difficult to count--and too ambiguous to define. --134.140.153.162 (talk) 15:27, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. If it's sabotage (by definition, action by foreign power), it's not terrorism anyhow. QED.  TREKphiler   any time you're ready, Uhura  16:00, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Effects of blast: shattering of windows
Warning: the following is OR and should not be inserted in the article. I noticed that accounts have windows being shattered all over lower Manhattan. Out of curiosity, I simulated a nuke attack via a nuke attack simulator (yeah, I know, Black Tom was conventional, oh well), and noticed that an explosion at Black Tom with overpressure sufficient to do that damage might have been somewhere in the 9 to 10 kt range, although the seismic waves thus caused might have contributed to the damage and atmospheric dynamics might have come into play. (Also, being a conventional munitions pile explosion, the shape of the blast/ fireball/ whatever it was would've been different from that of a nuclear weapon, affecting the damage area.) Depending on where relative to Black Tom the explosion was, the Statue of Liberty may have been pretty lucky that she didn't suffer worse damage. 192.12.88.7 (talk) 22:48, 4 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Huh. An interesting result, indeed. (Would you happen to know of one to compare Black Tom to Halifax and Port Chicago?) AFAIK, the blast effect is the same (hence rendering in "kilotons", i.e TNT-equivalent); it's the thermal pulse that differs.  TREKphiler   any time you're ready, Uhura  23:05, 4 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I've heard that the Black Tom explosion involved something like 900 tons of explosives - an 0.9 kt explosion would (assuming spherical explosion, level terrain, etc.) have shattered a lot of windows in the Bayonne/Jersey City area (0.25 psi) but not necessarily too many windows in NYC with overpressure alone. Thus the shattering may have been due to seismic waves, rather than overpressure. 192.12.88.7 (talk) 23:09, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * BTW, here's Halifax. 192.12.88.7 (talk) 23:18, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

The Black Tom explosion, being a nonnuclear explosion involving fire, numerous pieces of explosives, and a somewhat haphazard distribution, was not necessarily completely spherical in effect. (I suspect it looked something like the FOB Falcon incident of October 10, 2006, occurring at night and lighting up the sky with an orange glow - and involving a lot of "fireworks" and smaller explosions. Accounts have it that things were apparently exploding for several hours after the initial Black Tom blast.) 198.151.130.54 (talk) 23:50, 10 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Perhaps one of the closest things to a (real life) reenactment of Halifax that I could find on Youtube (so far) was Operation Sailor Hat, a 500 ton explosion (detonated deliberately) on the shore of Kahoolawe. There is a movie reconstruction of Halifax out there on Youtube as well, but that uses special effects and is a duplicate of copyrighted stuff (which is presumably used under fair use), so I won't link to that here. 198.151.130.54 (talk) 00:59, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Woodrow Wilson
The investigation results (sabotage) were kept secret partly because Woodrow Wilson was running for re-election on a platform calling for America to stay out of the war, and the investigation results would have essentially brought them into it. This isn't mentioned anywhere in the article, though. Why? --98.232.176.109 (talk) 02:59, 21 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Despite what "History Detectives" says, this seems to be more the stuff of conspiracy theory than fact. The logic runs: "Wilson should have known, therefore he must have known." And: "It served Wilson's interests to keep it secret, therefore he kept it secret." Evidence is scant. "History Detectives" quotes author John Cooper saying: "they didn’t want to get into the war; it’s simply you want to keep it quiet. That’s why there is no official response to the Black Tom." No official response? Wilson gives it to the Interstate Commerce Commission to investigate -- nothing secret, it's widely reported.


 * Cooper also says the U.S. had good intelligence, which is questionable for this period. If there was a cover-up, too many people would have had to participate for us to be left with no contemporary evidence of it. Makes me want to have a closer look at what Cooper has actually written, rather than just his off-the-cuff remarks quoted by "History Detectives." Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 02:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Franz von Papen
Denied his involvement well into the fifties and it is rather unproven only alleged--Tresckow (talk) 10:40, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Found a related!
"suspicion at the time fell solely on German saboteurs such as Kurt Jahnke and his assistant Lothar Witzke" - Kurt Jahnke was the brother of my grandfather ... and I am very pleased to read about his heroic action!! Is there any more information about him? Just filling gaps in our family's history ... --77.6.97.163 (talk) 12:45, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

There is nothing specially heroic about setting bombs under cover of night and then sneaking off before they explode, sending several people to their deaths.


 * Nor about making obscene profits selling to one group of countries at war and then claiming that you are simply neutral.Historian932 (talk) 11:47, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Jahnke later set up a detective bureau, and worked with Rudolph Hess after the Nazis took power. He was captured by the Soviets in April 1945 and shot.

Witzke was involved in the 1917 blowing up of the Navy base at San Francisco, Mare Island. He was arrested in early 1918, and sentenced to death. An unheroic attempt to kill himself was foiled. However, Germany lost the war shortly after, and his sentence was commuted to life.

He was released in 1923, as part of the trend to amnesty for all spies after the war. Also, it should be said, he showed some bravery by entering a prison boiler room after an explosion, witch affected the release.

He entered the Abwehr, and did not attract the attention of war crimes prosecutors in 1945. Unlike Jahnke, he was not active in serving the Nazi Party, and was approved to serve in the Hamburg Landtag until his death in 1952. 2A00:23C5:E097:5D00:D1BB:FAC9:6138:F8E4 (talk) 11:41, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

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unsourced "Characters" section
I just removed this unsourced "Characters" section from the article. If anyone wants to add sources, have a go at it. epicgenius (talk) 01:47, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

There were 39 important men involved in the Black Tom Island explosion.

American Lawyers:

Robert Bonynge: He was the lead lawyer representing the U.S. government and American claimants. He came before the Mixed Claims Commission. Harold Martin: Was the State Department lawyer and U.S. representative to the Mixed Claims Commission. Was also the top aide to Robert Bonynge. John McCloy: Was one of the most influential and important people to be involved with the Black Tom Island Explosion. He gathered evidence that Germany blew up the island. He then showed this to the Mixed Claims Commission and got the case reopened. He was a lawyer for claimants in the sabotage cases. Was partner at Cravath, Henderson & de Gersdorff. If it was not for him, the guards would be still be in jail. Amos Peaslee: Was a lawyer for claimants in the sabotage cases. Was partner at Peaslee & Brigham. Henry Arnold: Was partner at Rumsey & Morgan; therefore a lawyer for claimants in sabotage cases.

The German Lawyers:

Karl von Lewinski: Was a German agent to the Mixed Claims Commission from August 1922 until the January of 1931. Wilhelm Tannenberg: Was Von Lewinski’s assistant. He took over in January 1931. Richard Paulig: Was a German agent to the Mixed Claims Commission. Started in May 1934 to October 1939.

The Mixed Claims Commission:

William H. Day: Was an umpire from August 1922 until May 1923. Edwin H. Parker: Was an umpire from May of 1923 until October 1929. Roland Boyden: Was an umpire starting in January 1930 up until October 1931. Owen J. Roberts: Was an umpire starting in March 1932 until October 1939. Chandler Anderson: Was an American commissioner from May 1923 until August 1936. Christopher Garnett: Was an American commissioner starting in September 1936 up until October 1939. Wilhelm Kiesselbach: Was a German commissioner from August 1922 until May 1934. Victor Huecking: Was a German commissioner from June 1934 until March 1939.

The Detonators:

Heinrich Albert: Was a German commercial attaché to the United States before World War I. Karl Boy-Ed: Was a German naval attaché to the United States before to World War I. Anton Dilger: Was an American doctor. He was trained in Germany and ran an anthrax lab in Chevy Chase, Maryland, before World War I. Raoul Gerdts: Was the assistant to Fred Herrmann. Fred Herrmann: Was an American citizen who became a German spy. Paul Hilken: Was a Baltimore-based paymaster for German spies. He stayed in the United States prior to World War I. Frederick Hinsch: Was a German merchant marine interned in Baltimore prior to World War I. Was Hilken’s top enforcer and agent. Wolf von Igel: Was the top aide to Franz von Papen. He took over as German military attaché in 1916. Kurt Jahnke: Was a German spy who was based in San Francisco. Paul Koenig: Was aide to Franz von Papen. Was also head of Germany’s War Intelligence Center in New York. Michael Kristoff: Was an Austrian immigrant but an U.S.-based German spy. Hans Marguerre: Was a staff member of Section III-B. This was in the German Foreign Office. Rudolf Nadolny: Was head of Section III-B in German Foreign Office. Franz von Papen: Was a German military attaché to the United States before World War I. Franz von Rintelen: Was extremely important. Was a German navy captain. He was sent to the United States to stop American shipments of munitions to the Allies. This was their main planned as he carried it out successfully. Walter Scheele: Was a German chemist in New Jersey. He created the “cigar” bomb. Adam Siegel: Was a German spy. He befriended Fred Herrmann. Lothar Witzke: Was a German spy based in San Francisco; protégé of Kurt Jahnke.

The Handwriting Experts:

Albert Osborn: Was hired by the Germans to authenticate the Herrmann message. Was extremely important. Eldridge Stein: Was hired by the Americans to authenticate the Herrmann message. The Investigator Thomas Tunney: He was the head of the New York City Police Department’s bomb squad. Reginald “Blinker” Hall: Was the head of Room 40. Room 40 was the British government’s secret group of code breakers.

The Witnesses:

Carl Ahrendt: The American aide to Frederick Hinsch and Paul Hilken. James Larkin: Was the German labor leader recruited by the Germans. They made him plant bombs in the United States just before World War I

"The United States did not have an established national intelligence service"
The article says "The United States did not have an established national intelligence service" in 1916. However the Office of Naval Intelligence and the Military Information Division (United States) had existed for several decades at this point. ☆ Bri (talk) 02:28, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Difference in amount of TNT
Hi there,

first the load on Johnson Barge No. 17 is given with 100,000 pounds (converted to 45 tons of TNT), later on, the load is given with 50 tons of TNT. Small discrepancy, but nevertheless should be unified. ciao --Pentaclebreaker (talk) 18:37, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Quote 12 does not actually have what is in the reference
Quote 12 is linked for a line about there having-been a 25$ fee being avoided ... *scoff* ... but the page on the .nj site does not contain anything about it -  page edited? is there an archive? a wayback machine version?

Also, perhaps you might also want to reference various nj flaunting-their-wealth content like Jersey shore, ... *starting-to-giggle* ... and that South Park episode with the nj re-occuring theme / plot, as a contrast example of whether or not .nj are or aren't all that generous/relaxed about money! :D *can't keep it in anymore bursts out laughing* 120.21.164.161 (talk) 01:02, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Codebreaking
This linked paper from the US national archives gives an interesting sidelight on the effect of the Black Tom incident on German military and diplomatic codes. Thomas Peardew (talk) 19:08, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

United States plural?
The article says: "United States was neutral". Shouldn't it be "United States were neutral" instead? Nakonana (talk) 22:38, 18 May 2024 (UTC)


 * No. United States is the name of the country, so "United States was neutral" is correct, akin to "the country was neutral". ManlyMatt (talk) 16:04, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I see. Thanks for the explanation :) I'm not a native English speaker that's why I thought it's probably best to ask here instead of just changing it. It still sounds a bit funny to me. That means it also applies to other countries such as "Philippines was neutral"? It would be plural in the other two languages I speak (both for the US as well as the Philippines). That's a bit confusing. Nakonana (talk) 19:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Links to Clan Na Gael?
Outside of British Intelligence services and young anglophile U.S. politicians with ambitions for higher office claiming this link, and considering that it seems to be established that it was German saboteurs, is there any evidence for this? MyIP19216811 (talk) 23:47, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Michael Kristoff
In the "Investigation" section, consecutive paragraphs identify Michael Kristoff as Slovak & Austrian ManlyMatt (talk) 16:01, 4 July 2024 (UTC)