Talk:Black and Tan Terrier

History
And what is being disputed? The early history of the Welsh Terrier is quite clear and sources are noted. Has the person disputing this read Bardi McLennan's book on the Welsh Terrier, which is rather impressively detailed? Preceding unsigned comment added by PBurns3711 (talk • contribs) 02:40, 10 October 2006‎


 * The point is that this reads like an essay or a sermon, it is not write in neutral voice, and the author is presenting original work as established fact. No one is disputing the descent of the Welsh Terrier from black-and-tan terrier types, but lots of terriers claim this ancestry AFAIK.  Quill 03:12, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, wrong on all counts. No wonder your dispute note was unsupported by a question or a clear point.

What is presented in this piece is not "opinion" unless you think opinion has dates, place locations, and actual organizations adding and striking names off of show ring rolls. The history of the Old English Black and Tan is not a closely held secret and is well-documented by Bardi McLennan (I am not her) in her excellent book on the Welsh Terrier, which is cited. The research is hers, and I have checked it out at the original sources, and she is entirely right (no surprise -- she does her homework!)

People who work their dogs are under no illusion that the black and tan terrier is extinct (a picture of one from one of this morning's working terrier boards can be seen here >> http://www.terrierman.com/blackandtanmussellshuntinglife.jpg ). This is not a modern welsh terrier -- it is the original black and tan fell terrier as it looked then, and as it looked now. The history of terriers is not long or complex (about 150 years or 10 generations of dogs) and useful working breeds do not die out overnight. The black and tan still exists as a working dog because it is a useful breed. The fact that the Black and Tan terrier is not a Kennel Club breed seems to present a lot of confusion to folks in the Kennel Club, but in fact the breed was drawn into the Kennel Club as the Welsh Terrier as the article notes (and as an examination of Kennel Club history shows).

It is odd that you still do not seem to have read the Wikipedia article yet. The article does indeed note that the fell terrier (black and tan fell, red fell, brown fell and black fell) is what created the Lakeland Terrier, the Border Terrier, the Manchester Terrier, the Patterdale Terrier) as well as the Welsh Terrier. Perhaps a re-reading of the second and third paragraphs are in order?

As for tone, if this article does not drone too much, I do not think that is much of a fault. Since you offer no examples of what is wrong in tone or fact, and since you apparently did not even read the piece very closely, one has to assume your points are pretty minor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PBurns3711 (talk • contribs) 12:27, 11 October 2006‎

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Merger proposal:Old English Terrier
I propose to merge redirect Old English Terrier to Black and Tan Terrier. David Hancock's Sporting Terriers states definitively that the Old English Terrier is the same as the Black and Tan Terrier. Another article by Hancock that is very similar to what he says in his book can be seen here. The merger will be accompanied by a complete rewrite and sourcing of the this page. Cavalryman (talk) 23:21, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Have amended proposal above per developing consensus below, I agree, there is nothing attributed in the Old English Terrier page to merge. Courtesy ping to who’s !vote preceded this change in direction. Cavalryman (talk) 00:54, 10 June 2020 (UTC).


 *  Support Redirect as per JLAN. Further secondary source from Cummins in his book The Terriers of England and Wales: their history and development (2019) found here.  William Harris Canis lupis track.svg talk Canis lupis track.svg 08:36, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect, not merge. The present article cites a couple of antique books which have generic content about terriers but no mention of this one, and an American "breed registry" which has been defunct since about 2008. There is not one word of reliably-sourced on-topic text in that page, so nothing to merge. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:51, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect - I agree with JLAN. Atsme Talk 📧 14:35, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect, per the above. I'm not opposed to selective merger if something in the merge-from article is useful and can be better-sourced than it presently is.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:51, 9 June 2020 (UTC)


 * ✅. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:35, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
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