Talk:Black ice

Terminology
In northern New England "black ice" has traditionally referred to a clear form of pond ice that formed in very cold weather. Black ice has the appearance of thick, slightly cracked glass laid on the water, and its transparency reveals the darkness of the pond beneath; hence the name. Black ice is very hard and smooth, and provides conditions that make ice-skaters ecstatic: effortless gliding and extremely smooth, if slow, stopping. (One can skate sideways on black ice, using the right blade angle.)

Black Ice is also the title of a critically-acclaimed memoir by Lorene Cary of her experiences as a young black student at the elite St. Paul's School in the 1970's. It contains the following description: "...a clear, glittering ice that forms when it gets cold enough before the first snow to freeze the dark waters of the lakes. The surface acts like a prism to break winter sun into a brilliant spectrum of browns.  Below, in the depths, frozen flora pose.  Black ice is the smoothest naturally occurring ice there is, as if nature were condescending to art."

The use of the same term by television weather reporters to describe ice-glazed black pavement is a more recent occurrence of the past few decades.


 * Time for a disambiguation page? There's also Black Ice (poet), and "black ICE" as a term in Neuromancer for lethal Intrusion Countermeasures Electronics. 86.141.84.1 03:36, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I think using the term "Black Ice" to describe frozen water is very silly and should stop. Ice has no color, it is just ice. Call it clear ice, or very clear ice, or very thin slippery ice, but don't give it a color. There is a reason people of a more scienctic backgroud (American Meteorological Society) don't have "Black Ice" in their Glossary. Brewce larkin (talk) 16:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm all but certain the term BLACK ICE came to be because as conditions change what looks to be simply wet, black pavement (e.g. asphalt) is actually a layer of ice. So yes, ice is clear, but what's below is black and therefore deceptive. And the author(s) note this.

Black Ice Versus Clear Ice
In very cold climates the term "black ice" has yet another meaning. It is actually a form of frost that forms on paved roads after a prolonged period of very cold weather (typcially -30 C or colder) followed by warmer, more humid weather. Unlike clear ice, this form of ice is visually indistinguishable from dry pavement, even in broad daylight. But it is nearly as slippery as clear ice.

With experience, a driver can feel the reduced coefficient of friction. But most drivers will not notice it until they have actually begun to skid, at which point it may be too late.

--Tedd 17:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Black ice Overdrive
There is also an overdrive circuit that can be installed on guitars called the Black Ice Overdrive, that is distributed by Stewart-MacDonald, I think it should get its own article but anyways...

Avyfain 04:40, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment on NTP for freezing point
Don't you think that specifying NTP for the freezing point of ice is a bit too much? The freezing point's dependence on pressure is slight, so it just adds confusion. It isn't like the boiling point. Why not just say the freezing point (0 C)?

Rerooks 16:17, 23 March 2007 (UTC) Raymond

Interleaved?
>> In addition, it often has a matte appearance rather than the expected gloss; and often is interleaved with wet pavement, which is identical in appearance. >>

I can figure out what it means in context but "interleaved" is kind of a weird word, does anyone have a better term to use? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.124.29.130 (talk) 04:58, 6 May 2007 (UTC).


 * Maybe "interspersed"?


 * Atlant 14:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

What on earth has the link to African-Canadians playing ice-hockey got to do with black ice? I came here looking to be a better driver here in our Australian winter, and found no advice, but there is, of course, as is Wikipedia's want... a link to entertainment in the form of ice hockey! Grr...

authoritative?
"The term black ice is sometimes used to to describe any type of ice that forms on roadways, even when standing water on roads turns to ice as the temperature falls below freezing. However, this use of the term black ice is not included in the American Meteorological Society Glossary of Meteorology." - is the american meteorological society an authority on the name of what is really a road safety condition rather than a form of weather? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Random832 (talk • contribs) 17:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Reinstated edits
This statement from the Black Ice article was the one that triggered me ito action. "The process of freezing is slowed down due to latent heat given off in sublimation,". Sublimation is the evaporation of a solid not the freezing of a liquid as is stated in the article. Also, sublimation would adsorb heat not liberate it. [Please make the distinction between 'adsorb' & 'liberate' for those of us with only a single doctoral laureate Jsindaco (talk) 14:10, 9 November 2012 (UTC)] Another of my edits was to remove the mention of Rime Ice as a type of ice that is a hazard on a road surface. Another of my edits was to remove the mention of a steep atmospheric pressure gradient from the sentence that describes why rain freezes on very cold pavement. Electricmic (talk) 05:00, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Black ice on lakes
I started a new article Black ice (lakes) using some material that was previous deleted for the Ice Skating section. The new page corresponds to Kärnis, Stålis and Stålis Ddermott (talk) 00:04, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Not a legal definition
This is just a reminder. Wikipedia NEVER should be used for any sort of legal definition or evidence. It was brought to my attention that this article was recently submitted to a court as evidence. --DePottey (talk) 03:43, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Verglas is verglas
Verglas is not black ice, it is a form of clear ice formed when supercooled water droplets hit rocks which are below freezing. It is what it is, and let not confound matters. A thin layer of verglas on a road surface is one of mechanisms for what we term "black ice" (ice that blends in with surface of a road), which can form along with other mechanisms (frost, freezing rain, etc).

Merge-from Black ice (lakes) proposal
Most of the Black ice (lakes) article is based on content that was removed from this article for some reason on December 18 2008 , so re-merging the content is not logical.

There is another proposal to merge Black ice (lakes) to Congelation ice, which seems more logical. "Black ice" on lakes is the fresh-water form of "Congelation Ice", and is quite different from black ice on roads.

Ddermott (talk) 21:06, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Black ice (lakes) has now been merged to Congelation ice and a REDIRECT from the former to the latter was made. See Talk:Black ice (lakes). The merger proposal tag should now be removed. Ddermott (talk) 16:50, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Should be removed/merged altogether
There is no such thing as "black ice" as it's presented here - it's simply ice. Ice can be more or less visible, depending on the conditions under which it forms. So-called "black ice", as presented in this article, is merely a pervasive urban legend, popular for use when excusing oneself or another for being involved in an automobile accident brought on by winter road conditions. Perceptive individuals know it as a euphemism for "driving too fast for conditions". In view of this, I suggest this article be merged into another, such as "ice" itself or perhaps "urban legend". If it's to remain standing alone, I would suggest editing to ensure the spurious nature of the topic is made clear to readers.

--Throgmo (talk) 22:11, 22 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I live in Trinidad, CO, and in mid-February this year I was walking my sister's dog the day after a snow fall. I thought I was walking on black pavement until suddenly I saw that I was standing on clear ice with black pavement below.  Until I was on it, I had no idea that there was ice there.  I'd like to say that I managed to get across it safely but alas, I lost my traction and went down, fracturing my right femur.  Black ice isn't just an urban legend; I've seen it and know! JDZeff (talk) 21:52, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Actual Black Ice
Actual 'black ice' is not ice at all. In locales where rainfall is rare, like southern & mid California or the Southwestern desert states, motor oil can accumulate in places where vehicles stop for any length of time. This includes the length of a red light on expressways where many cars line up during rush hour. It also includes the concrete pads at bus stops, or train stations. The slightest bit of rainfall transforms these miniature oil slicks into patches of 'black ice' that can make a motorcar or small truck lose traction when braking, and the same thing happens to trains. This is the true meaning of the term.

In our present day nanny-state where nothing is really anyone's fault, people can't help inventing excuses for mishaps by co-opting descriptive terms, like this one, to deflect responsibility. The length of this article and the elaborate technical tapdances it contains, support my assertion.

Jsindaco (talk) 23:48, 5 November 2012 (UTC) Jerome Sindaco


 * This is an out of subject comment. Pierre cb (talk) 17:25, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

From Article Feedback
People using the Article Feedback are asking when the term "black ice" was first used for roadways. I searched, and found usage dating back to the 1970s, but I could not find a source for the first attested use. Abductive (reasoning) 19:53, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Bridges
Entire section needs to be referenced. I'm a Minnesotan and while many of these claims seem reasonable they of course need citations. Also it seems that there is something like original research towards the end of the section referring to St. Anthony Falls. I'm fresh to editing / maintaining so I am not sure if or what I should do other than look for citations which I am.

phenux (talk) 18:36, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Definition changed?
I strongly disagree with the current state of this page. I suggest we revert edit 574487943 made by 70.56.223.142 on September 25, 2013, as it completely changes the definition without citing any sources. In fact, the only source it cites contains the old definition, though 70.56.223.142 cited it as an "erroneous" source.

I will add some extra citation needed templates for now and check back in a few days to see if anyone disagrees, otherwise I will go ahead and revert that change.

Quasar (talk) 20:51, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we really need to wait. The reversion was unsourced and seems to be based on some kind of weird local definition/urban legend. Black ice is ice on the road that you can't see, it has nothing to do with oil slicks. Megalophias (talk) 21:20, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree, go ahead and revert this weird definition. Reify-tech (talk) 16:43, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

On further examination, there does seem to be an alternative definition that may be used in Southern California and the American Southwest, which don't often experience freezing temperatures. The term appears to have been reapplied to sun-baked oil slicks (which are indeed a common road hazard in these regions). To avoid edit warring between different climate regions, I suggest that some acknowledgement and coverage be given to this alternative, derivative definition (it seems clear that the cold-weather definition must have come first). Finding reliable sources may require some clever use of search engines. Reify-tech (talk) 16:58, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
 * In the past couple of years, I haven't encountered anything to indicate a connection between oil slicks and the term "black ice", and I'm very skeptical of any such claims not backed by a WP:RS. Reify-tech (talk) 21:36, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

If you lived here in the desert, it would be clear that the term was adopted by people that need something to blame an accident on. It's just as clear to me that the term originated in the desert, although I could be the one that is wrong. A "scientific" citation would breathe some fresh aire into this matter, but wouldn't we have seen one already if there was indeed a scientific basis to any of this twaddle? 71.120.72.42 (talk) 20:55, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

You can get black ice which has significant hydrocarbon components when it is really cold. Vehicle exhaust condenses on pavement, and poorly tuned, diesel, as well as cars which haven't warmed up their catalytic converter can add heavier hydrocarbons which were not fully burned in the engine. However, it is likely the black ice which forms during the morning rush hour is mostly due to the water in vehicle exhaust. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.1.89 (talk) 15:25, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Warning sign for icy pavement
Nice picture. But en.wikipedia is ENGLISH based. The sign is FRENCH Canadian where the metric system is used. The US uses English units. Hence a sign reading 32°F is more appropriate for an American audience, not 0°C  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tensace (talk • contribs) 15:55, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The photo is fine as it is. This is the English-language Wikipedia, but is not an exclusively United States publication. Canada, England, Australia, and most of the English-speaking world use the metric system, while the US is an anomaly among the world standards of measurement.  Even the US traditional units are defined in terms of the metric system. Reify-tech (talk) 17:21, 30 January 2014 (UTC

Deicing ERROR
The author(s) state:

"Deicing with salt (sodium chloride) is effective down to temperatures of about −18 °C (0 °F)"

Wrong. The effectiveness of deicing BEGINS at −18 °C (0 °F) and ends at about 15°F.

"When the pavement temperature drops below 15°F the effectiveness of salt is decreased significantly."

SOURCE: http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/travel/road/frequentlyaskedquestions.htm

While the Wisconsin DOT is not likely the ultimate referee on this subject, they certainly have a ton, and I mean tons of salt, experience in this area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tensace (talk • contribs) 16:13, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Black ice. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20111005050312/http://www.dot.state.mn.us:80/metro/maintenance/Anti-icing%20evaluation.pdf to http://www.dot.state.mn.us/metro/maintenance/Anti-icing%20evaluation.pdf

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Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 12:27, 19 October 2015 (UTC)