Talk:Black or White/Archive 1

Comparison to The Beatles' "It's All Too Much"
The article states, that "The song's introduction and main riff is performed by guitarist Slash and is extremely similar to the start of The Beatles's It's All Too Much." - The comparison to The Beatles' song makes no sense at all. "extremely similar" is a subjective statement - and it doesn't sound like that song, IMHO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.242.205.5 (talk) 07:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

And the verse melody is exactly that of Duran Duran's "Rio". 76.105.157.77 (talk) 07:40, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it's "Hungry Like the Wolf" from the "Rio" album. 24.189.228.174 (talk) 02:53, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the main riff of the song is identical to that of John Cougar Mellencamp's, "Hurt So Good". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Timewarppp (talk • contribs) 00:52, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Slash
I know there is this interview with Slash, where he denies playing the hook line (I thought that just meant the bridge?). But in the liner notes of the album, Slash is clearly mentioned to play on this track. --AndroidOfNotreDame (talk) 23:54, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

There was a recent episode of VH1's That Metal Show in which Slash states he did play on the song. -MrPajamaShark — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrPajamaShark (talk • contribs) 08:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The Panther Sequence
Whoaaa... Back up a second here. I'm pretty sure the author has got this backwards, but I don't have a linnk to back it up. The original version had all the racist stuff, and then they were upset so they took it off the screen. That's why later versions, when they played it extended, looked really stupid, because he was just smashing things for no reason. That makes more sense than adding in the racist stuff after. - Darkhawk

LTB
The rap is apparently performed by "LTB". There appears to be zero information on the internet about who this is. Anyone know? --87.82.24.11 01:25, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a current underground rapper by the name of LTB/Earl Stringer, but that can't be the same who had performed over 20 years ago. The only hint for the "Black Or White"-L.T.B. is this release:

http://www.discogs.com/LTB-Yo-Start-The-Show/release/3640937

The release year and the voice match the MJ-rapper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.154.17.23 (talk) 02:21, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Another rather convincing theory from a MJ-fan-board:

His real name is Bill Bottrell, who also coproduced the song. He originally recorded that rap for Michael as a joke, and intended to bring in LL Cool J or Heavy D to put down an actual verse. But when Michael heard it, he fell in love and insisted that they kept it on.

Fun fact: L.T.B. stands for "Leave it To Beaver". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.154.17.23 (talk) 02:32, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

YouTube links
This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed or you would like to help spread this message contact us on this page. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 05:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge
articles are about SONGS, not singles - remix article info should be moved into here.--Ericorbit (Note:Ashadeofgrey added this information from the history)
 * I support the proposed merge per nom.--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 22:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge complete.--200.32.222.2 01:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Inspired by Queen's One Vision?
Can the main riff of Black or White be inspired by the Queen song One Vision? I haven't read anything about this on the net, but I think there's a striking resembelance between the main riff of Black or White, and the riff that Brian May plays at 1:25 in the song, right after Freddie Mercury has sung the line "I'm gonna tell you there's no black and no white". With that particular line of lyrics, and the similarity of the riffs, I really think this has to be more than mere coincidence.

Now, I know that MJ and Queen were good friends, so is it possible that MJ put this riff in his song as a small homage to Queen? It can't be the other way around, since One Vision was released in 1985. Any thoughts on this? Lappado 12:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Black or White.jpg
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Controversy section
The controversy section may be inaccurate. (version I'm referring to ) The Bart/Homer bit in particular is confusing. I'm pretty sure this was not in the original version and which version, if any it's referring to is confusing. It may be vandalism, it was added here. Also, what the controversy was about is not particularly clear. Was it simply that the inclusion of symbols associated with racism was offensive to some, even if the reason was for the symbolic breaking of the symbols? Was it because of the zipping up scene? (Is this real? It was added by the person who added the Homer/Bart bit). Was the breaking of property seen as controversial even though the reason for the breaking was to destroy the racist symbols? It's not really clear what the controversy was about. This whole section is unsourced. Remember that for something to be controversial, there needs to be a reliable source which says it's controversial and preferbly why it's controversial as well. (Although the apology if sourced is probably sufficient to show there was a controversy since he wouldn't have apologised without any controversy) Nil Einne 11:48, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The controversy is not about destroying racist graffiti, that's what was intended, but they didn't even put the graffiti on and it was just Michael destroying everything. Nobody understood why he was destroying everything and it just seemed to be violence for no reason. The other controversial part of the segment was that Michael's dancing was suggestive in that he grabs his crotch a lot and zips up his pants. I think he did apologize saying that he was trying to make the instincts of the black panther into a dance move. Frankyboy5 (talk) 03:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Dubious

 * Michael Jackson asks him, "I am black or am I white?" When the officer responds, "You're under arrest." and handcuffs Michael, the pop star notes, "I guess I'm black.

I added the dubious tag because it sounds more likely he would have said "Am I black or am I white?" Rather then "I am black or am I white?" Nil Einne 11:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Requested move
I believe that this page should be moved to Black or White, as the disambiguation page does not link to any other articles called Black or White. - ARC Gritt TALK 19:14, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Support Ewlyahoocom 06:58, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This page has been moved from Black or White (song) to Black or White as the result of an uncontroversial move request. Dekimasu よ! 09:48, 22 October 2007 (UTC) 

Music Video section problems
In the Music Video section, the first line claims that the video was controversial, but the section never makes clear what the controversy was. There ought to be a couple of sentences describing the content that made it controversial and who was upset by the video, including references.

Also, the Synopsis section doesn't describe the whole video. It stops at "...Michael Jackson begins to sing Black or White, surrounded by various different cultures scene-by-scene." A synopsis ought to describe the remaining parts of the video as well - the fire part and the morphing. I know these parts are mentioned elsewhere in the article, but they ought to be described in the synopsis to make it complete. Perhaps the descriptions that soon follow the "The video today" heading should be moved up? And, I'm not sure that the "The video today" heading is adding anything to this section.

I think the Music Video section ought to have three parts:

Synopsis - describing the original version, Controversy - describing the controversy and edits made specifically because of the controversy, Alternate Versions - describing different versions in existence for whatever reasons

Other issues:

In what section of the video were "racist graffitis" added?

Why are parodies mentioned in the video section when there is a parody section farther down the article?

Thanks for all your hard work. :)


 * If a proper cite isn't added soon for the "racist graffiti," it will be removed. This is the kind of incendiary item that MUST include a proper cite. HelpnWP (talk) 20:57, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Videoclip
The videoclip can be seen in MTV page:

http://www.mtvmusic.com/video/?id=18164

The YouTube link on the article, doesn't work. --212.183.253.249 (talk) 23:42, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems you need to have (or fake) an American IP. Try googling for other sites. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:41, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

A hard rock like "Beat It"
Michael Jackson is quoted in Rolling Stone magazine's Top 500 songs issue as saying of this, "I wanted to write the type of rock song that I would go out and buy. But also something totally different from the rock music I was hearing on Top 40 radio."

This is the link: http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=459

Then Michael always wanted an innovative rock song or hard rock song. "Black or White" is a mix of hard rock, dance and rap, but basically it is a hard rock song like "Beat It".

Here's a list of books that the users should read about "Beat It" is a hard rock song: http://books.google.com/books?q=%22beat+it%22+%22hard+rock%22+%22michael+jackson%22&btnG=Search+Books

--Alexanderfriend (talk) 23:05, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Peacock Words
Although a huge fan of this single, I have replaced the Peacock words 'Extraordinary' and 'Amazing' with 'Record Breaking' in the section 'Reception', 2nd para. Unlike the original text, the change I made is not subjective, and (handily) the original citation still applies. We can't just say things like this, no matter how extraordinary or amazing we feel a thing to be, or WP loses objectivity.

Incidentally I never bother watching pages; I'm not on a mission. I just correct as I read articles, if something is obviously wrong. If people change back an edit of mine, well, meh... life's too short to worry about it. And who am I to think I'm the final arbiter of good style & grammar anyway? lol. Change away, you won't get an edit war from me!

controersy segment
the last part of the controvery segemnt doesn't fit.it's rather about the technique that's used for the morphing heads. someone should clean that up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.51.154.43 (talk) 19:31, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

The actress who plays the mother: True Identity?
Surely the actress is Marcia Strassman, not Peggy Lipton as written in this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.174.117 (talk) 17:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Charts section
I am Alexanderfriend, the main author of the "Black or White" article, see here: . I added 14 references, it was a hard work, because I searched information and added information using reliable sources. You can also see my user page: Alexanderfriend. I added countries where "Black or White" was number one in 1991 and 1992, see here:, according to the references: Campbell (1993), Page 302 and Halstead, Craig; Cadman, Chris (2003), Page 99, see here:  

According to this two reliable sources, "Black or White" hit number one in the US, UK, Mexico, Cuba, Zimbabwe, Australia, New Zealand, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, India, Israel, Italy, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the Euro Chart Hot 100, number two in Germany and number three in Holland.

--Alexanderfriend (talk) 03:02, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

False release date
I am Alexanderfriend, the main author of the "Black or White" article, I added the true release date of "Black or White": "...it began to be promoted on radio stations the first week of November 1991 in New York and Los Angeles. "Black or White" was officially released one week later.", according to Campbell (1993), Page 301. "Black or White" was released on November 1991, not October 1991, see here:

--Alexanderfriend (talk) 03:02, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

"Black or White", a hard rock song like "Beat It"
I am Alexanderfriend, the main author of the "Black or White" article. "Black or White" is a mix of hard rock, dance and rap, but basically it is a hard rock song like "Beat It". It is my best sentence because I did the comparison between "Black or White" and "Beat It" as hard rock songs, using 5 references:    

Since 1982, each Jackson album would include one or two hard rock songs of its own:
 * "Beat It" featuring Eddie Van Halen (Thriller, 1982)


 * "Dirty Diana" featuring Steve Stevens (Bad, 1987)
 * "Black or White" featuring Slash (Dangerous, 1991)
 * "Give in to Me" featuring Slash (Dangerous)
 * "D.S." featuring Slash (HIStory, 1995)


 * "Morphine" featuring Slash (Blood on the Dance Floor: HIStory in the Mix, 1997)
 * "Privacy" featuring Slash (Invincible)

--Alexanderfriend (talk) 03:02, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm agree with you, "Black or White" is a mix of hard rock, dance and rap, but basically it is a hard rock song like "Beat It". I have two aditional citations about it:

NewsBlaze, Daily News says, "Black Or White is the hardest rocking song on the album,...", here: http://newsblaze.com/story/20090705121607kays.nb/topstory.html

and msnbc.msn.com says, "The hard rock 'Beat It', set to the switchblade guitar runs of Eddie Van Halen, is an anthem of pacifism, or passivity, with Jackson pleading to stop a gang war — and perhaps all wars — because 'It doesn't matter who's wrong or right.'", here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31614225/ns/entertainment-music/

These 2 citations shows that "Black or White" and "Beat It" are hard rock songs, and then your sentence is right. I supposed you think that your 5 citations are enough for your sentence, but I hope you considers my citations. Your article is very interesting. Thanks

JackoStar2007 (talk) 19:01, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Sure, thanks JackoStar2007. Of course, I will consider your citations, your sources are really clear, especially "NewsBlaze, Daily News", it is very clear on that "Black Or White" is a hard rock song. And "msnbc.msn.com" says clearly "The hard rock 'Beat It'". In my sentence I did the comparison between "Black or White" and "Beat It" as hard rock songs, using 5 references, but I also will use your references. I will also use your source (NewsBlaze) in other songs because it has a full review of the Dangerous album. I'm currently working on more information for the article and I'll add their own references. After I finish the job, I'll edit this article by adding new information and new references in the sections (history, charts, etc). And I will also work on improving the music video section by adding new references and order it. Thanks for your collaboration, I will also add my sentence in the history section because it is sourced and had consensus and you now confirm it. You can also collaborate reverting vandalism or unsourced information, if I can not do it at its time.

--Alexanderfriend (talk) 02:32, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Synopsis
In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_or_White#Synopsis it says that, "The video shows scenes in which Africans begin dancing like Jackson; so do, in sequence, Indonesians, American Indians, a woman from India and a set of Russians". Although says that it's Indonesian's, actually it's Thai's traditional dance 125.160.128.90 (talk) 14:41, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Your observation is interesting and the picture shows that the women dancing with Michael looks like Thai. But The New York Times is a reliable source and Jon Pareles says: Indonesians, see: http://www.nytimes.com/1991/11/16/arts/review-rock-new-video-opens-the-jackson-blitz.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1. I used this reliable source (The New York Times) for this sentence: "The video shows scenes in which Africans begin dancing like Jackson; so do, in sequence, Indonesians, American Indians, a woman from India and a set of Russians". But if you have other source that says that they are Thai women, reply my comment.

--Alexanderfriend (talk) 03:16, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Release date
The release date of this single needs to be clarified, as dates referred to in the infobox and article conflict between 1990 and 1991. -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 18:23, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

VIDEO PREMIER
It should be mentioned that Black or White was released simultaniously around the world with 500 million viewers, 27 countries the most to ever watch a music video, this is stated at the bigining of the video on the Dangerous DVD/VHS and is an interesting fact and oustanding achievement that should be noted!!--Colette89 (talk) 20:26, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Godley & Creme Original Research
The comparison between the music video for Cry and Black or White is interesting, but there are no reliable sources that make that comparison, so I've removed it, due to the fact that it's original research. If you can find a reliable source (and I looked), then please do add it back in...I looked around, and I couldn't find anything. I'm guessing that this is because the video for Cry uses a different technique (analog cross-fading, as opposed to digital morphing) to change between singers. Yes, the "multiple talking heads singing the song" idea is the same, and the videos do look very similar...but unless this comparison is mentioned in some kind of reputable third-party publication, it doesn't belong in the article. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 17:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Slash calling the hook "gay"
The cited source is this Spinner article, which was published almost two years ago. The article cites Slash telling that to CNN officials, yet there is not a single CNN link which confirms that. All the other sources I managed to find cite the Spinner article as their source. I have pinned an tag on the statement and if no one can do a better job than I managed to, I will be forced to remove it as it is a potentially libelous rumor. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 20:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Never mind... found this YouTube clip, I'll pair it with the Spinner article. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 20:56, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Funk rock ?
I saw someone added funk rock recently, but I didn't find any reliable sources talking about funk rock for this song 81.53.43.233 (talk) 22:07, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. I don't get the funk rock part of "Black or White". Sounds like your typical pop rock record to me. I don't know if I wanna call the song hard rock either. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 04:13, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I got a question: how do you get 500 million from only 27 countries?
I've been troubled by that fact. I guess if one was to believe from that source posted about the number that you have to have had half of all the United States (and I think our population is over 300 million), half of the United Kingdom, portions of Australia, New Zealand, parts of Europe, etc. For some reason, because of the populations of some countries that BOW debuted at in 1991 it just does not round out to 500 million. How did the label just decide to go along with it and why did no one question it? Just like those that didn't question Elvis' one billion stat for his performance at Aloha from Hawaii. It was confirmed 40 countries watch that on satellite in 1973 but it's unclear if one billion actually watch that show. Same with the supposed 500 million that watched Michael's video. Maybe it'll be fair to add "although it's debatable whether those figures are accurate"? BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 04:29, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Only if you can provide reliable source for the "debatable" part. Otherwise, it's pure synthesis. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 03:50, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's best to remove it? Someone added that it aired primarily in 27 countries but the "source" doesn't state that. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 06:03, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

I watched B or W when it was released in 1991. Not in any of the countries you list, but in Nigeria, which as of today has 200 million people. If you add just Ethiopia, the 2 Sudans, Congo and Egypt, you'd easily beat 500 million. Of course the numbers were smaller in 1991, but it goes to show how you need to widen your scope, and when it comes to MJ, he was way bigger in Africa than in his home country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.127.122.247 (talk) 07:12, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Top 40 radio stations
This sentence doesn't make any sense:

"In a period of twenty-four hours, "Black or White", described by the record company as "a rock 'n' roll dance song about racial harmony", had been added to the playlists of 96 percent of 237 of the United States of America's top forty radio stations the first day of release."

"96%" of "237" of "U.S.'s top 40" is a mouthful at best, but how are there 237 stations in the U.S. top 40 stations? And even of there were, how is that a useful statistic? BreachReach talk 17:48, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a reference to the Top 40 radio format, also known as Contemporary hit radio, meaning all the radio stations that focus on the 40 most popular songs of the time, as opposed to the forty most important radio stations. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 07:36, 8 December 2015 (UTC)


 * I removed the redundant phrase "the first day of release" and changed "top forty" to a wikilink Top 40. However, it's still a mouthful and I wonder if last.fm is the best source for this info. A5 (talk) 07:55, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

External links modified
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Odissi Dancer
In this article wrongly state that odissi dancer was from india, but she is from Sri lanka. How to correct that. Thank you SMM EM (talk) 15:53, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Ref idea
https://www.stereogum.com/2171534/the-number-ones-michael-jacksons-black-or-white/columns/the-number-ones/