Talk:Black sheep/Archive 1

Merged from Talk:Black sheep (term)
On the word black sheep. How common are black sheep in flocks a few centuries ago? If they were rare then their wool would have been more highly prized! So in the nusery ryhme a black sheep is pointed out. Yes it ryhmes with baa baa, but it also might relate to black sheep being prized in certain cultures. So origonal black sheep may have ment something special and only latter did it come to have a derogatory meaning. Just as artificial is now seen as bad, it was at first seen as good - as a work of artifice - of craft - a creation that was good.

just a thought to think about 15:14, 9 March 2006 User:82.5.173.225

etymology
anything about black sheep's etymology?

It's called the same in spanish (oveja negra)

--euyyn 16:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

wrong picture
The picture is actually of a goat, not a sheep. 20:35, 22 November 2006 User:62.163.50.92
 * I agree - it's definitely a goat. I'm removing it 81.151.231.225 15:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Added new pic of blacksheep in a flock with white sheep 81.151.231.225 15:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Etymology?
A clever person might want to add the meaning of the expression "black sheep" to this page, possibly with some sense of origin for the saying. --Feitclub 00:41, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC) Italic text

a black sheep is a sheep in black colour 07:47, 19 May 2006 User:202.63.121.7

Removal not justified
But I never fight with people who are convinced that they are right.

Just WHERE do you think I got the description? From a professional article discussing this phenomena in family therapy....


 * The removed bit -
 * Black sheep (psychology), a psychology description of the member of a rigidly triangulated family  who holds the rest tightly together by being identified as the bad/sick/deviant one who causes all the family problems.
 * The rule enforcer in the family is charged with the job of controlling the black sheep from spilling the family secrets - which often involve incest or alcoholism.
 * In short, the black sheep, in psychology, IS an outsider, but only because he/she is a teller of truth.

I had added, surely there is already a topic page on this, but I can't find it. And I LEFT this elaborate description because this IS a valid recognized phenomena. I am currently collaborating on a book to be published by an established author on the Black Sheep in families.

I had not put in CITATIONS here because this is NOT the place for citations... And if someone could not be bothered googling "black sheep" family and triangulation, then there is no hope for Wikipedia. Ignorance rules. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by A Kiwi (talk • contribs) 10:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC).
 * Slow down, my friend. If you have all this information, why not create a topic? But, fair enough. I'm willing to call this a mea culpa. I've created a stub. Add to it as you desire. --Eyrian 11:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Photo displayed is a goat, not a black sheep
I am someone who has owned both goats and freshly sheared sheep, and this know that not only are sheep not "marked" with contrasting color patches of white, but they also have a very different body shape. Kiwi 23:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I say it looks like a goat too. IvoShandor 22:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey, Ivo .... THANKS for your support. I have owned and lived around both goats and sheep all my life.


 * I "know" that there are photos that are allowable -- but the woman who told me that, with such superiority, that you certainly could NOT find them on any Google search, subsequently refused to tell me where to find these "allowable photos".  WikiPedia can be a weird clannish place at times.  Kiwi 02:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * We can't use other people's copyrighted photos, is all. We're giving out Wikipedia for free. If you can find a picture which the photographer has clearly put in the public domain (or if you can take such a picture yourself), that'd be fine. --McGeddon 13:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey, I don't know how to check an image on Flickrs copyright status, but this is a really cool photo with a black sheep: [Black-Sheep] 216.9.17.110 (talk) 03:13, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Moves, merges, history

 * There is a confused history of edits and 5 cut-and-paste moves between Black Sheep and Black sheep and Black sheep (term) and Black Sheep (disambiguation), involving various meanings: social outcast, a pop music group, disambig pages, etc. Anthony Appleyard 22:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Some sort of apparent history of those pages (Anthony Appleyard 09:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)):
 * The same boldface number marks opposite ends of the same cut-and-paste.
 * # marks edits that describe the expression.

Black Sheep

 * 16:14, 15 April 2004 User:212.137.34.41: created as Black sheep, only about the expression #
 * 03:49, 9 May 2004 User:67.84.185.183: By now the rap music group had got in #
 * 04:38, 9 May 2004 User:Stormie: created Black Sheep by cut-and-paste splitting the rap music group matter from here [1] #
 * 21:20, 3 March 2005 User:Angr: to here inclusive it was only about the expression #
 * 01:10, 4 March 2005 User:VivaEmilyDavies: cut-and-paste merged to Black Sheep and redirected to Black Sheep [5]
 * 19:10, 5 March 2007 User:SteinbDJ : redirected to Black sheep (term)
 * 02:26, 17 March 2007 User:DennyColt: a 3-way disambig between the term & 2 movies
 * 02:29, 17 March 2007 User:DennyColt: redirected to Black Sheep
 * 09:15, 10 October 2007 & after: User:Anthony Appleyard: swapped its name with Black Sheep

Black sheep

 * 04:38, 9 May 2004 User:Stormie: created as Black Sheep by cut-and-paste splitting the rap music group matter from Black sheep [1]
 * 00:39, 9 December 2004 User:Feitclub: by now a film comedy (1996) and a Marine Corps aviation unit had got in.
 * 00:59, 4 March 2005 User:VivaEmilyDavies: added a section about the expression, by cut-and-pasting from Black sheep [5] #
 * 19:16, 17 August 2005 User:66.92.180.51: by now it had sections for the expression, 2 bands, a song, a movie comedy, a Marine Corps aviation unit, and a make of beer. #
 * 17:47, 22 August 2005 User:Neilc: some sections deleted, long sections cut-and-paste split into separate files (including Black sheep (term) [4]) with links, short sections kept, changed into disambig page format
 * 02:29, 17 March 2007 User: DennyColt: Up to here inclusive it stayed a disambig page
 * 04:40, 21 April 2007 User:In Defense of the Artist: cut-and-pasted from here to Black Sheep (disambiguation) [3], and from Black sheep (term) to here [2]. #
 * 13:39, 8 October 2007 User:IvoShandor: current edit: up to here only about the expression (and the psychology term) #
 * 09:16, 10 October 2007 User:Anthony Appleyard: swapped its name with Black sheep

Black Sheep (disambiguation)

 * 02:27, 17 March 2007 User:DennyColt: Created as Black Sheep (film), a redirect left behind by moving the older Black Sheep (film) to Black Sheep (1996 film): ("... fixing this, adding to disambig--there are two films named this now.")
 * 04:04, 19 March 2007 User:DennyColt: changed into 3-way disambig between the 2 movies and "Black Sheep (disambiguation page)": confusing edit comment ("remaking again as a redirect... there are two films by that name now")
 * 09:56, 19 March 2007 User:Kozmik Pariah: moved this page from Black Sheep (film) to Black Sheep (disambiguation))"
 * 04:38, 21 April 2007 User:In Defense of the Artist: he cut-and-pasted a full disambig page from Black Sheep to here [3], losing the previous short (3-way) disambig page
 * 07:04, 26 September 2007 User:StYxXx: current edit, still a disambig page

Black sheep (term)

 * 17:39, 22 August 2005 User:Neilc: created by cut-and-pasting a section from Black Sheep [4] #
 * 04:35, 21 April 2007 User:In Defense of the Artist: up to here inclusive, stayed only about the expression #
 * 04:42, 21 April 2007 User:In Defense of the Artist: cut-and-pasted to and redirected to Black Sheep [2]

Procedure to tidy up
The above is the situation as at 10:00, 11 October 2007 (UTC). I then did this to reassemble edit histories after the cut-and-pastes: Anthony Appleyard 11:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge from Talk:Black sheep (term) to Talk:Black sheep.
 * Delete Black Sheep (disambiguation)
 * Undelete its first 6 edits (the short disambig only about the films & the term)
 * Move those undeleted edits to Black Sheep (films) (disambiguation)
 * Delete Black sheep
 * Undelete edits of Black sheep 02:29, 17 March 2007 User:DennyColt and earlier: those were the big disambig and its ancestry
 * Move (those edits of) Black sheep to Black Sheep (disambiguation)
 * Undelete Black Sheep (disambiguation). That reassembled the history of the big disambig page. Revert off its last 2 edits, which were junk created by the histmerge.
 * Move Black sheep (term) to Black sheep
 * Undelete Black sheep. Revert off its last 2 edits, which were junk created by the histmerge.
 * Delete Black Sheep.
 * Undelete edits of Black Sheep 21:20, 3 March 2005 User:Angr and earlier: those were about the expression.
 * Delete Black sheep, move Black Sheep to Black sheep, undelete Black sheep.
 * Undelete Black Sheep: those edits were a short disambig page and redirects.

Note
In the history of Black sheep there is a gap between these two edits: as between them this text was part of Black Sheep (disambiguation). Anthony Appleyard 11:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 17:39, 22 August 2005 Neilc (move content from Black Sheep)
 * 21:20, 3 March 2005 Angr (nothing to do with languages)