Talk:Blackrock College

The article makes no reference the school's extensive missionary and charity work or it's academic standing.

Is there any possibility of adding in some extra photos showing the scenic grounds and the beautiful location? It just seems a bit lacking. Also I believe there should be more talk about the rich traditions and history of the college, stemming from the fact that it is one of the most illustrious private schools in the world, easily competing with the top european/british/international equivalents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.191.65 (talk) 09:41, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

A mention of Ross O Caroll Kelly perhaps? -- Liam195.7.54.2 12:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I've added him in. Demiurge 13:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I mean as a well known satire on the school and related culture rather than as an alumnus!
 * Maybe as a satire reference, but definitely not as an alumnus - he went to "Castlerock". --Kwekubo 21:39, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Should the article also point out that the majority of students pay fees? Ekilfeather 16:51, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it reads a bit like a brochure rather than an encyclopedia entry at the moment. There's a lot more stuff that could go in eg about the associations and place it has in the media and popular thought. Anyone know enough about this to tackle it? 195.7.54.2 14:00, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I think this article has improved greatly. It should concentrate on what makes the school notable and avoid aspects that are common to most other Irish schools.Curtains99 18:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Media Coverage of Killing of Brian Murphy paragraph not NPOV

 * "What is perhaps most interesting about the incident is the media-fuelled outpouring of disdain for the school, given the connections of those involved. Several publications, some even with a veneer of reputability, were reprimanded for how they dealt with the issue. This is now seen as part of a wider-felt disregard for the school and similar institutions."

This is not NPOV (see Neutral point of view). Would you disagree that the killing itself and the conviction of the guilty were the most interesting things about the incident rather than perceived media bias against the school? Is there a source indicating which newspapers were 'reprimanded'? I don't remember this. Did a judge make such a reprimand? Is there a survey showing a wide-felt disregard for the school? Could someone delete or edit this paragraph to make it neutral and based on verifiable facts?Curtains99 20:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

In response:

Given that the article is about the school itself, the case is only of interest in perspective and relevance to the scool. If there is a need for an article or an objective writeup of the case on Wikipedia, it should have its own article. As described in the links below, the negative media attention was wildly disproportionate to the accused's relationship with the school.

As described in the links below, various publications were reprimanded by the case's Judge.

There is no direct statistic showing a widespread disregard for the school (as no such survey is ever likely to be undertaken by an impartial party) but the context of and situations described in the linked articles clearly indicate the prescence of pre-existing negative attitudes and dislike for the school, especially given that it is fee-paying and seen as the preserve of the upper-middle class.

The articles generally contain considerably more relevant material than expressed in the quotes. The quotes are there merely to demonstrate evidence of their content.

"Media Frenzy of Manslaughter Trial" http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2004/02/29/story190712089.asp

From the article: "`For privilege read Shame' ran the headline in yesterday's Irish Independent. Referring to the "Silver Spoon Generation", the newspaper described how "their lovely homes, their fee-paying schools, their clothes, their accents, their conversation, the cars that have taken them to and from the trial, have set them apart in the environs of the courthouse". "

"Black Days at Blackrock" http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2004/03/07/story61515294.asp

From the article: "From the very outset of the Club Anabel's trial, the defendants have been consistently defined by their association with their old school. Reading the more sensationalist accounts of the case,you would have got the impression that Blackrock College itself was in the dock, along with the four young men accused of the death of an 18-year-old boy.

By extension, the case became an excuse for some to condemn an entire section of society - the affluent, south Dublin professional class that inspires such fascination and envy from those who do not belong to it."

"Newspapers Fined for reporting Manslaughter Trial" http://www.simonmcaleese.com/asp/article.asp?ObjectID=310&Mode=0&RecordID=214

From the article: "The media coverage of the trial was criticised by many on the basis that it concentrated on the privileged background of those charged with the killing. Headlines such as "Kicked to Death"; “For Privilege read Shame; "The Posh Killer; Shame of Blackrock Thug Who Kicked Student to Death" and "Silver Spoon Generation" were above newspaper articles which described the defendants’"

"Judge Bans Comments on Accused in Murphy Case" (Google Cache, website requires registration) http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:cBiqYapWmyMJ:www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3%3Fca%3D9%26si%3D1114343%26issue_id%3D10353+brian+murphy+blackrock+media&hl=en&gl=ie&ct=clnk&cd=11

From the article: " The judge had previously expressed concerns over some of the publicity the case had received and urged the jury to pay no attention to newspaper reports on the trial. He had asked them not to read, in particular, the numerous "colour articles" some publications had carried since the trial began."

"Murphy Death Shows 'Innate Savagery of Man'" (Google Cache, website requires registration) http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:ChZ1T0FGMFsJ:www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3%3Fca%3D9%26si%3D1131571%26issue_id%3D10480+brian+murphy+blackrock+media+innate+savagery&hl=en&gl=ie&ct=clnk&cd=1

From the article: " John Edwards pleaded with the jury to ignore what he called a "palpable atmosphere" that he claimed has existed in the press and broadcast media from the beginning of the case."

I will refrain from editing/expanding and reposting of the paragraph in question, for an appropriate period of time, until these details have been discussed.
 * I'm still a bit dubious about phrases like "what is most interesting", "some even with a veneer of respectability" and "this is now seen". How about just keeping to the facts and avoiding our interpretation of them entirely. Here's my suggestion for a compromise paragraph:
 * The school was the subject of much media comment during the trial. According to Andrew Lynch writing in the Sunday Business Post: "Reading the more sensationalist accounts of the case,you would have got the impression that Blackrock College itself was in the dock".
 * All factual/verifiable, yet I think it gets the same point across.Demiurge 09:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Admittedly, the initial version of the paragraph was probably not the most appropriate possible description. I think your proposed paragraph is fine, but there should be an additional line or two alluding to the extent of media commentary and it's often unethical nature, sometimes to the point of criminality.
 * Also, given the cultural reference to Ross O'Carroll-Kelly in the article I think it is also important to mention public perception of the school, and I suspect much of public opinion of the school is now inexorably connected with the Brian Murphy case.
 * I agree. Blackrock College is now famous for 3 things: being by far the best school at Rugby in Leinster (Ireland?), being the alma mater of cultural anti-hero Ross, educating the teenagers who kicked Brian Murphy to death.Curtains99 15:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)


 * With regards to the title, given that the charge brought before the court was manslaughter, perhaps "Death of Brian Murphy" would be more accurate.
 * Manslaughter means unlawful killing. It's when you kill someone with out intending to do so.Curtains99 15:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps Dermot Laide should not be included in notable alumni, apart from anything else, he is unlikely to have a bio. written up, and Brian Murphy is not listed as an alumnus of Gonzaga.
 * Agreed, Laide is only notable for making the news and going to prison and he has no achievements other than killing someone. I don't see him getting a bio. Curtains99 15:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Finally, the External Links to Brian Murphy related journalism, if they are to remain, should include some of the links detailing the media's reprimand and their attitude in general. 10:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, if you want to include that the media were reprimanded then add an external link for proofCurtains99 15:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

There is far too much weight given to the coverage of this incident. The entry cannot simply write about media coverage of an incident hen much of what was said was unverififed and unfairly attacking the school. The entry doesn't state that only one of the accused was convicted of a crime. An earlier talker said it's the school that educated people who kicked Brian Murphy to death, only one Blackrock past pupil was shown to have struck Brian Murphy and that was with a punch. Witnesses described up to eight people in the fight at one time, the majority of whon were not from Blackrock college.

A seperate article should be written about the incident.

Valid Alumni?
Did Barry John go to Blackrock College? Is Rowan Manahan notable? His claim to fame is that he wrote a book and his entry in wikipedia looks like an ad for that book (currently bubbling under at no 64,000 in the Amazon.co.uk bestseller list). Curtains99 01:02, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

--I've never heard of John O'Shea (thr footballer). However, John O'Shea, founder of the charity GOAL is a well known figure in Irish public life. He is regularly in the media and regarded as a figure of moral authority. he is certainly more renowned than some of the other (no doubt equaly meritricious) alumni listed. his name should go back on the list. Boldymumbles 11:28, 26 July 2007 (UTC)-response John O'Shea did not attend Blackrock College
 * User:Johnnnn removed Eamon de Valera, Pádraic Ó Conaire, Liam Ó Flaithearta, John O'Shea and Fergus Slattery from the alumni section. The first three are among the College's most famous past pupils, and it seems that a notable John O'Shea did attend Blackrock, although I cannot identify from online sources which one. I'm unsure about Slattery. --Kwekubo 20:41, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it should be noted that John O'Shea the footballer and also the more famous of the two did not attend Blackrock College

Is David McWilliams really an academic? I agree he should be included, but elsewhere. 20:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Should the list simply continue to grow? I think we should check conventions on other school's articles. There have been some recent additions that aren't really that notable, e.g. development contracts with provincial sport teams.AleXd (talk) 12:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Somebody has messed up the alumnni section very badly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Legiglass (talk • contribs) 23:28, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If you mean the problem with the reference recently change not having a title then I have fixed that. If you are referring to the tags that I placed in the section they are there for the purpose of requesting that people provide valid references for each of the people in this section. All of the references marked have no mention that the person went to the college and so the source could effectively be removed as useless. Keith D (talk) 12:36, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

In The Irish Male at Home and Abroad, Joesph O'Connor states he went to Blackrock College, but I have never heard any other mention of it. Does anybody know anything about this? I added him to Alumni anyway, you can sort it out yourselves.89.100.151.138 (talk) 13:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Tomás de Bhaldraithe
Apparently de Bhaldraithe attempted to start a hurling team here in the 1930s and the college authorities resisted him because they feared it would lower the tone. This was in De Bhaldraithe's obituary in The Irish Times a few years ago so if anybody has access to the archives they should find more. El Gringo 14:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That doesn't sound very likely, even if it was in an obituary. Hurling was so popular in the early years of the college that at one point it was in danger of passing out rugby as the college's main sport. --Kwekubo 00:14, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, Michael Cusack, one of the GAA's founders was a teacher in the school. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AleXd (talk • contribs) 15:42, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Harbison's 'erroneous report'
I have removed this sentence:
 * The apparent error by Dr. Harbison has cast doubt over several other cases based on his autopsy evidence given at a similar time to the erroneous Brian Murphy report.

No source for this doubt cast over other cases. No source that Harbison's report was erroneous. No source to show he was medically unfit at time of report preparation. No source that the two reports are even contradictory: the newer pathologist merely mentioned a complicating factor that she felt exacerbated the assault injuries, leading to death. Curtains99 10:31, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

The credibility of the state pathologist also shouldn't be discussed on a school's article. AleXd (talk) 11:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Agree fully. If someone wants to write an article about the case, fine. Not in the middle of a schools article. I have already removed the section relating to the incident from this article. (Sarah777 (talk) 22:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC))

Creatine etc
A number of editors have added claims that rugby players from this school have failed doping tests and that use of creatine is widespread. Any information like this has to be backed up with a source such as a newspaper article. Here's an article from the Irish Times in which the headmaster states that the school actively discourages creatine use. And here's an article from the Sunday Business Post where the author states that 'It is also widely suspected that many of today's school rugby players take the legal performance-enhancing drug creatine.' I don't think either of these articles are worth adding. One is a journalistic denial (headmaster denies that dragons live under the school), the other uses weasel words to make an allegation not specifically directed at this school. Curtains99 11:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, uninformed media speculation doesn't really merit mention. Secondly such allegations are part of a wider debate about the nature, desirability and future of schools' rugby in Ireland. AleXd (talk) 13:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Fees
A properly referenced sentence giving recent figures for school fees was removed by an editor a few days ago (to the best of my knowledge it was the person's only Blackrock edit). Their comment was that giving this information was 'advertising'. I am of the opinion that the information should stay, but I wanted to invite comment before I reverted the edit. Ekilfeather 22:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

w/r/t quoting the actual fees: "The annual fees in 2007/8 are €5,650 for day boys and and,€15,700 for boarders(Blackrock only)." these numbers are uncited, the citiation leads to an article detailing the fees for 2005. Until someone can cite the current fees I feel it is better to quote the fees for 2005 and am changing the sentence to read: "The annual fees for first year students in 2005 were €4,550 for day boys, €12,250 for boarders and €13,450 for overseas borders." Additionally, the article does not specifically state the fees for the junior school (or indeed, any year other than first year) and it is ureasonable to assume they are the same as the senior school. I have to say though that I do not think this information is relevant to the article and I could find no other examples of explicit fee quotations for other academic institutions, including those mentioned in the cited article except for Clongowes Wood College's page that has an uncited quote that does not match the amount reported in the article. I suggest the page should not quote fees. 86.45.3.54 (talk) 18:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

History & Traditions, buildings
A new section on the history of the school, perhaps? I don't think journalistic sources would be adqueate. Does anyone know of any reliable historical works?

Also more on the location, site, buildings etc, some of them were significant before it was a school.

AleXd (talk) 13:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Removal of Ross O'Carroll Kelly reference
Is Ross O'Carroll-Kelly really a satire on Blackrock college or South Dublin in general. He isn't mentioned in any other school or universities article, not even Castleknock College, a supposed source of the name of his fictious school. I think he's been added here because Blackrock is one of the most famous schools in the country rather than any genuine link.AleXd (talk) 18:44, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

But, Ross O'Carroll Kelly definitely went to a Southside school, while Castleknock is on the northside. Paul Howard is much more likely to have meant Blackrock than any other school. Include the reference, I say!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.151.138 (talk) 13:08, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Particularly because the initials of Ross o'Carroll Kelly spell out ROCK... it's definitely a satire on Blackrock College —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.90.7.79 (talk) 05:54, 21 August 2010 (UTC)


 * This is original research. Ktlynch (talk) 11:55, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

During a talk when he was invited to the school in the Academic year of 2007-2008, he said the character was depicted on those he saw at a Senior Cup Final and the school was based on Blackrock College as it is the most successful Senior Cup side and he said he had the misfortune of playing against them once as a 14 year old. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.41.24.165 (talk) 15:47, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Blackrock crest.gif
Image:Blackrock crest.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 03:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Photographs
This article could do with some pictures of the college, the grounds are beautiful and well maintained.AleXd (talk) 18:26, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

"Heraldic Crest Of The College 1936" ?
The user JohnFGreene appears to be courting a pet project relating to the preservation of the heraldry of the college. He has chosen to do so below the references and external links in the article. I suggest the content he has added be integrated into the main article provided adequate citations are found or it be removed on grounds that it is likely NPOV, unreferenceable, and not-notable. Wikipeida is not the place for original research. 86.43.163.45 (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

The section has been removed. 86.43.170.206 (talk) 03:06, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

On what basis do you call this information "nonsense", the author cited a book on the college. Have you checked the source? The user did add the material in the wrond place, but not everyone is an expert at wikicode (myself included). How do you know that it is a "pet project"? Surely his pet project is benefiting the wikipedia project if he adds verifable, relevant material. Aspects of the heraldry are worthy for inclusion and are mentioned in most articles on institutions of various kinds.AleXd (talk) 11:43, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Notable Alumni
The list is continually being added to and changed, often these are vandal edits. To be listed as "Notable Alumni" a man must meet these guidelines WP:GNG. Please cite reliable, independent, not-self published sources. I think all the people without their own article should be removed. A double column list should also be created.AleXd (talk) 09:56, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

A list of schools alumni should be created, there are enough on in article to warrant one's creation. The section could then just have a short summary, and link to the list.AleXd (talk) 10:58, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a good idea Alex. Off you go! Sarah777 (talk) 08:01, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the encouragement Sarah. The section in the main article can now be re-written as prose, just retaining the most notable names. The new list should concentrate on getting references for everyman.AleXd (talk) 22:59, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The list is getting organised. I wonder is it a good idea having redlinks to non-existent Wiki-bios such as Paul Costelloe (designer)? Makes the section look scrappy (and obviously doesn't support the entry). Sarah777 (talk) 20:59, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the best is to add entries for those there is reliable information for (e.g. Donal Murray) then remove those that are deemed not notable. Autarch (talk) 12:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I notice the list of Alumni is growing and the references to some are problematic (though I think we've rooted out any real 'non-notables'). The article on past-pupils is still needed. You still out there Alex??! Sarah777 (talk) 17:19, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Slang
There are references to "scorfes and dubes" and "ledge" culture. I know what these refer to but as the slang in question is probably not understood much outside Ireland, it should be removed or rewritten. There is also a vague mention of "many people" which has no source. Criticism should be sourced, as should all other claims. Autarch (talk) 00:34, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I would consider that vandalism, this article suffers alot form that sort of childish thing. Since this got mixed in with your good faith edits it escaped attention for a while. I'm going to reccomend this article for semi protection since over five times a week it is vandalised my unregistered users. These fall into two categories:

i) Recent past pupils or their friends childisly adding their name to the alumni list: " John Coughlan was a ledge when he attended, successful school mascot"

ii) Just simple swearwords, abuse etc

While the odd edit can be easily reverted it is very frequent and getting to the point where it disrupts building the article. AleXd (talk) 12:10, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Good idea - any page that gets this sort of nonsense should be semi protected at least - failing that, suggest to a few editors that they watch the page for vandalism. Autarch (talk) 12:38, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Notability of alumni and activities
[This edit] added Henry McKean - who I admittedly know little about - but I wonder if the list of alumni is a little too long. Bob Geldof would be notable, but I wonder if the list is just becoming a list of everyone who went there - keep in mind WP:N

As for the Extra Curricular Activities section - this is quite long and I wonder if it could be trimmed - for instance there is a redundant sentence in the Water Sports that mentions a pool that is mentioned under Facilities. (And should that be extracurricular in the heading?) Autarch (talk) 19:27, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * If a man has a wikipedia article then he is notable, there is a list of Old Rockmen, which doesn't have this problem. Ktlynch (talk) 14:49, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The list is in need of references and I have tagged it for Refimprove as there should be at least 1 reference for each entry showing their association with the college a linked article is insufficient for this purposes. Keith D (talk) 19:45, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Autarch was asking about notability for such a list; my criteria were an existing entry and that they went to the school.

As for everything needing to be referenced, ideally every piece of information on the encyclopedia should be cited. More than half of this list is; which is a very high proportion for any kind of list (Some institutional affiliation lists have none at all). There has been a strong positve trend toward adding references in this article over the last few months so please don't aggressively delete material that people have added. Thanks Ktlynch (talk) 19:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Assessment
I am assessing this article, based on a request filed at the Schools Wikiproject. I am keeping the school listed as a start class, but based on the extensive claimed alumni, I am moving the importance of this article to high importance within the schools project.

There is a concern with the weighting of the article. The sports section is the longest section, but is virtually unreferenced. The history section, which should be longer for a school of 150 years old is virtually non-existent. The sports section may need to be trimmed down a little, and the history section greatly expanded. Given the age of the school, the architecture should probably be mentioned more prominently.

The alumni list (contained in a separate article from this one) needs more extensive referencing to confirm that they are alumni.

I think that these changes would do well to move the article up to at least "B" status. I wish editors here the best of luck. LonelyBeacon (talk) 23:19, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

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Browne house
Why is "Browne" referenced as a student house and not McQuaid in the info box? Last report I can find gives it as McQuaid https://www.blackrockcollege.com/news/commissioning-of-house-captains-2022-23/ NotQualified (talk) 02:31, 23 February 2024 (UTC)