Talk:Blade Runner 2049/Archive 2

K's death confirmed by the author
, in my edit comment I linked to the relevant section in the manual of style which explains why to include the point using references: If a vague plot element is later clarified by the work's creator, this can be included in the summary as long as a citation to this clarification is provided, together with sources covering the plot point with "correlation with the creator". This is precisely what is going on: the death may result vague as you said in a first watching, but the author has confirmed it and several reliable sources confirm that it happens, with at least to of them saying it explicitly.

The number of references are there to prove the level of coverage, showing that it is not a minor point in the plot as you think, with several of them dedicating a whole stand-alone article to the ending alone; so it should be covered in the article per WP:DUEWEIGHT. If you don't want it included in the plot as a simple and short statement, I'm waiting to see how you deem acceptable to cover it. Diego (talk) 07:12, 28 June 2018 (UTC)


 * I have already stated, more than once, that whether or not K dies is a minor point, which is left vague in the film. Why do you insist on belaboring it? --- The Old Jacobite The '45 12:11, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
 * So, let's recap:
 * You complain that the plot section containing mentions about the music is not adequate for the plot section, which is a fair point to make.
 * After I say that I'll just include K's death, and Cnbrb agreeing ("yes, maybe so"), I rewrite the sentence to remove all mentions of the music, reducing the contentious content to a single fact with three independent references directly supporting it.
 * You switch your complaints to the fact that K's death is mentioned at all.
 * You justify this removal on the entirely subjective that this is a minor point, and ignore the references which establish its importance with some weird notion that plot sections don't have references, even after I've also pointed you to the guideline which requires this kind of sourcing for plot points that, as you admitted yourself, may be vague.
 * You repeatedly remove the NPOV tag without having reached an agreement, even after I've pointed to you the instruction page describing the conditions for when to remove it, and requesting that you don't do it.
 * You make no attempt to discuss your position in depth, merely reinstating your subjective opinion that this is a minor point despite the evidence I provided in form of RSs - no guidelines supporting your point, no reliable sources stating that the ending and death are ambiguous, not a word to my question in my previous post.
 * At this point, if you keep removing well-sourced content and don't address my request that you explain how we could include K's death somewhere in the article in a way acceptable to you, I'm going to report your behavior to the boards as disruptive per WP:FILIBUSTERING.
 * Diego (talk) 12:51, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Cool it, guys. I think the problem that we have here is that K's death or non-death is not actually explicitly  portrayed in the film — it's open to interpretation. For this reason I would say this issue doesn't belong in the Plot section. So here's a constructive suggestion: why not include it in the Critical Reception section, e.g. "The fate of K in the closing scenes of the film is has been a matter of debate; some critics have suggested that his demise is open to interpretation (reference here); in an interview with Entertainment Weekly, writer Michael Green indicated that K's death is shown in the final scene. (reference here)" .. or words to that effect. It covers the discussion surrounding the ambiguity without making assertions either way. Seem fair? Cnbrb (talk) 13:00, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Cnbrb you have a very reasonable solution but as in most of these discussions, the parties want to be right for following the rules or in the alternative want respected for their opinion as a long time editor. Consensus is a goal rarely achieved.Eschoryii (talk) 14:32, 28 June 2018 (UTC)Sorry my comment was not helpful.
 * Tell me about it! Cnbrb (talk) 14:35, 28 June 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree with your suggestion, Cnbrb. Thanks. --- The Old Jacobite The '45 21:33, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, that would be a pretty acceptable solution, and the conversation has been more or less moving towards that. Still, I would like The Old Jacobite to actually *discuss* that possiblity, rather than passively-aggressively disrupting the work to build such content. It wouldn't be cool to announce that we're going to write that section, take the time to research it and make it neutral and policy-compliant and put it in place, only for her/him to remove it after the fact with the argument that it's "not needed" or "not important", as just happened at the Plot section. , do you have anything to say? Diego (talk) 19:30, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I think he  just did. So do we have consensus? Cnbrb (talk) 00:18, 29 June 2018 (UTC)  Good work.Eschoryii (talk) 04:25, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, it looks like it. I'm busy these days, but next week I'll try to write that section and then remove the maintenance tag, unless someone adds it first. Diego (talk) 21:57, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Right, well nothing seems to have happened on this matter in the meantime, so I have made this edit today which inserts a brief explanation along the lines of my suggestion above. Various editors keep changing the plot to say K is dead and then it gets reverted, and it's getting a bit boring now. So hopefully this will address the problem by outlining the debate, without making any claims about K's death in the plot section itself. Cnbrb (talk) 16:18, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Interpretations
If you remember with the page for the original Blade Runner, you know it has a whole section dedicated to its themes and interpretations. Sure, it’s good to have something small to start off a ‘themes’ page for the sequel, but to merely say people are interpreting the ending as if K either died or didn’t die is weak. It’s not an interpretation, it’s just a debate/speculation with little importance to the film’s main themes and reception. We can either expand the section and replace what’s currently there, or we can do away with the section because of how little significance the current info there is. - Theironminer (talk) 11:33, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
 * An interpretation section sounds fine, if there are good reliable sources to back it up. By all means, please expand this idea if you want to.However, I am struggling to understand how a couple of sentences discussing interpretations of the fate of the main character of a film could be considered "little importance to the film’s main themes and reception". It was added by consensus, after some discussion (further up), partly to mitigate a tiresome edit war where editors were inserting interpretations of the final scene (K died/K didn't die, he just lay down...). It's not been a problem since then, so I suggest you tolerate the presence of a small amount of text that you personally don't like, and instead focus on improving the article by adding some of the interesting ideas you have suggested.Cnbrb (talk) 13:37, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with . The section in question was agreed upon after a great deal of debate, and I feel that it is necessary to the article to discuss interpretations of that character's fate.  Frankly,, you've given no reason for its deletion other than you don't like it. --- The Old Jacobite The '45 13:40, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

For your benefit, let me more clearly elaborate. If I'm being honest, my original view towards the Ending section was not that I "personally don't like" it, but that I believed that there could be more to back it up with if there was such expansion and detail, but it didn't belong in the Reception section. The way it was worded put a sour taste in my mouth, which led to the comment of comparing it to a debate/speculation. My part about its "little significance" was poorly worded, I must admit, for I originally meant to state that it had little significance being in the Reception section with the current details it has. And my mention of "little importance to the film's main themes" was not something I meant to add, looking back. I got carried away with my thoughts regarding the short length of the description and had forgotten that the most insightful thing you can add to that analysis is that K's death is a reflection of Roy Batty's from the first film. For my wording with those sentences, I do apologize. However, to mention that the description was apparently an agreement/consensus and to expect me to have been aware of that comes off as unfair, especially when you add claims like 'you personally didn't like it' and that 'I have given no reason to delete it' (not to mention my deletion was already reversed and the interpretation section has been back up for literally a few days now, and I haven't gone back to delete it a second time because I know better and want to be civil). You could have left your response(s) to sound more encouraging to be open to any input that I could give to expand the section for the film's themes, but from the rest of your response, you have came off more as discouraging; being associated with any future edits to this film's page is something I'd rather distance myself from after this. - Theironminer (talk) 21:35, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Sorry for my late response. I was one of the editors who requested that the content be removed from the plot and agreed that a separate section should be created to contain the information that so many editors felt needed to be presented. Since K's death isn't explicit, it should be explained. It makes no sense to have that explanation in the plot section so the best location, in my opinion, is outside of that. Whatever that section is called is of less importance. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:51, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I respect your reasoning; from that perspective it makes more sense, especially since it being mentioned that people kept switching between K being alive or dead at the end of the film.
 * Then again, I was unaware of the compromise between editors for adding the description. Despite my typed mistakes in my first paragraph, I do apologize for my original deletion of the section. - Theironminer (talk) 23:29, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, sometimes things evolve in articles for peculiar reasons on Wikipedia. It's just how it happens.... Cnbrb (talk) 14:43, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Isn't the toy horse a unicorn?
Have a look at 1:14:40, as I think you can clearly see where the horn used to be. Makes much more sense from a plot perspective as Deckard would have carved his daughter a unicorn, not a horse. But the horn might have broken off over the years. --Flxjx (talk) 23:54, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
 * You would need to cite a reliable source saying anything like that, otherwise it's only your personal observation, which constitutes original research. DonQuixote (talk) 01:17, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
 * All of the sources I've seen call it a horse. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:41, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes! You're right! Although I think I'm right, I can't find any source to reference. I'll keep looking and revert here if I find anything for your consideration. --Flxjx (talk) 11:03, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

K lies down motionless and wounded
, you had agreed here that the wording "a wounded K peacefully lies down on the steps" at the plot section was acceptable. Can you explain why you have changed your mind? I know what the consensus was; I was part of it, so I know what we had agreed to. In the discussion we agreed to not mention in the plot that K dies, despite the multiple independent reliable sources asserting it; and the current version does not say that K dies, and it certainly doesn't say a thing about the music; yet you are still removing descriptive parts of it.

The sentence describes images that are clearly seen in the film, without interpreting them. The whole sequence revolves around K showing his wounds and being unable to stand up; it even devotes more than 10 seconds to the shot where the wounds are seen. With no mention of the wounds, mentioning at all the sequence in the plot makes no sense. Can you explain how is it relevant to the film that K lies on the steps, if not because he can no longer stand on his feet, because he's injured? Diego (talk) 13:26, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I didn't agree to that, I wrote it was a better option. The consensus ended up at removing it. If you've just completed a difficult mission you could jut be waiting outside in the snow (on L.A., which already makes no sense) for Decker to come out. That's the point, it doesn't make sense and so implying content to add sense adds to the plot. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:59, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Woah - we agreed to remove any mention to the death or the soundtrack, and removed they are. We did not agree to mischaracterize the scene by making it look what it's not.
 * This version is a misleading description of what is seen. The scene is not one where K is peacefully taking a rest, waiting for the next mission; it's a sequence where he shows pain, an inability to stand upright, and where he contemplates the serious wound on his abdomen. Merely saying that he lies on the steps is a severe misrepresentation of the whole scene, not a neutral description. Diego (talk) 21:12, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * This issue was already discussed above and you seemed to approve of my suggestion for a resolution to this. As no constructive edits have been made to the article since then, I have inserted a brief outline of the ambiguity of the scene into the Critical Reception section, including Michael Green's statement, so there should be no more need to continue edit warring over this small point. Cnbrb (talk) 10:06, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

For reference, here is what was discussed and agreed previously on the subject of K's death or non-death. Cnbrb (talk) 15:29, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

100s of plot edits
I've reverted back to the version from a couple of days ago. I sincerely apologise for the improvements that probably got caught up in there. My objections: I'm sure there was some good stuff in there too, but could you please take it slowly next time instead of performing so many small edits in a row. I'd be keen to hear others opinions. Scribolt (talk) 14:43, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The plot section bloated up to 800 words.
 * It specifically had too much detail relating back to the plots of the predecessor (voigt kampf for example).
 * I do not believe that the new section (did K really die, it's still not certain whether Deckard was a replicant) was deserving of its own section.
 * Hi . Fair point re the plot, but Blade Runner 2049 is a very complex plot and I am trying to get to a version that is coherent enough to be understood in one reading.  This has been done with many other WP:PLOTS on WP (e.g. Brexit: The Uncivil War).  I also wanted to use some footnotes to clarify some items (like the Voigt Kampf tool etc.) and particular the prequels, which is another innovative aspect of the film (and each have their own WP articles).  However, I am also open to whether others think this version works.
 * What I want to do with the new section is to the capture parts of the film script that people were not sure about. There are a lot of articles post the release on these issues in major papers/websites.  There is lots of post-film WP:GNG on the issue of whether Deckard was a replicant (again).  I think it is useful for a reader to have these questions chronicled and recorded (as there are many articles in good WP:RS that discuss "unanswered questions" in such a format.
 * I want to ensure that this WP article captures more of the richness of this film, and the considerable amount of RS discussing the film since its release.
 * Britishfinance (talk) 14:48, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply, and again sorry for the collateral damage. I'm going to perform a more targeted revert to the previous plot version as I still disagree that your expansion was an improvement. Plot sections are more focused on narrative, rather than capturing the richness of the fictional world. I'd appreciate it if you waited for additional discussion before reverting again, per BRD.


 * Regards the additional section, I still don't believe that these are indeed 'unresolved' plot points that have generated enough meaningful academic discussion in relation to this film (rather than in the original) but I will leave that be pending additional input. Scribolt (talk) 14:58, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

My unsolicited advice is to not worry about the plot summary so much. Like it or not, it will likely be rewritten entirely differently in the next year or so. There are so many different ways to write a summary. I strongly encourage greater focus on adding coverage from secondary sources (basically, everything else in an article body) because such content is much, much more likely to stay and not be revised. Erik (talk &#124; contrib) (ping me) 17:08, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Minor quibble here, but when K discovers the duplicate birth records, he realizes not that they're twins, but that one record is fake, and was copied from the other. As he states, "It's impossible. Two people can't have identical DNA." The fact that the girl is listed as dead presumably contributes to his belief that he's Deckard's son. (Yes, it's a bit of a plot hole: K and Joi both suffer logic fails.) As to the "did K die?' debate, the plot summary has him "mortally wounded", which is an assumption/opinion. I think that all that can be said with certainty is that he lies on the steps, at the end, "seriously (and perhaps mortally) wounded." Nicely done otherwise; I leave it to the regular editors to make any alterations.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:7117:900:68F3:78F7:E658:13C4 (talk) 07:34, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * We have word of author that the script is meant to have K die in the final scene, so that would be well-sourced canon even if it is not explicitly mentioned in the film. There used to be a section explaining how some critics considered this ambiguous and open to interpretation, which got deleted in some of the section edits; I've restored it now. Diego (talk) 08:42, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * P.S. We discussed this extensively, but of course consensus can change. You may want to review the previous discussions to check the arguments made back then. Diego (talk) 08:48, 6 November 2019 (UTC)