Talk:Blauer Portugieser

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predominately associated regions
"the lead should give due weight to where it predominately associated with". I agree. In some parts of Austria and Germany you do not find Blauer Portugieser at all. On the other hand, the wine region Moravia is basically an extension of Weinviertel in Austria, where Blauer Portugieser is a major grape. Nahabedere (talk) 10:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * But the lead is not the place to stuff everything in. Please put list additional regions in the body text, giving reliable sources, and preferrably with a reference to the cultivated area. Tomas e (talk) 11:34, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I do not want to put everything in. I even want to take something OUT. In large parts of Austria and Germany, Blauer Portugieser is not grown at all. In central Europe, basically there is one connected region for Blauer Portugieser, consisting of the North of Lower Austria, and the South of Moravia. For example, see http://www.weinausoesterreich.at/wein/rw_portugieser.html which says "96% der Anbaufläche sind in Niederösterreich". Nahabedere (talk) 15:11, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

According to reliable sources, Blauer Portugieser is predominately associated with German and Austrian production. In the Oxford Companion of Wine, it not until the 4th paragraph of its entry that a region outside of Austria/Germany is even first mentioned (Romania & Hungary). In Jancis Robinson's Vines & Wines, Blauer Portugieser is introduced in the section on "German red grapes". In Oz Clarke's Encyclopedia of Grapes, the very sentence of the entry describes the grape as "A lightweight, high-yielding table and wine grape found in Austria and Germany....". So there is no logical, encyclopedic reason to take out from the lead the description of this wine being an Austrian and German grape. AgneCheese/Wine 20:46, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


 * All of these are global encyclopedia by authors who do not speak the local languages of the regions where the grape is grown. So they simply are not able to give more precise information. Probably they are not even aware of the fact that "Modry Portugal" is the same grape as "Blauer Portugieser". I have sources precisely from the regions where the grape is grown. For Austria, see the one above. For the Czech Republic, check "Nova Encyclopedia ceskeho a moravskeho vina" by Kraus et. al. (the definite source on wine in the Czech republic) which writes (on p. 98):

But probably the most convincing source is simply any map of wine growing regions in Central Europe, which clearly shows that Weinviertel in Northern Austria and Southern Moravia, are ONE SINGLE wine growing region separated by nothing more than a country border. It would be absurd, if wine grapes would be aware of country borders instead of soil, climate etc. Nahabedere (talk) 11:19, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * under "Tradicni oblasti" (traditional regions): Austria, Bohemia, Moravia, Hungary (Germany is not even mentioned, I am not an expert on German wine, but it sounds convincing when the same book writes that, in the 19th century, the grape spread in the region of the Austria-Hungarian monarchy, i.e., not in Germany).
 * under "podil z celkove plochy vinic v CR" (proportion of wine growning area in the Czech republic), 2004: 3.9% which is a lot considering the fact that (both Austria and the CR) mainly grow white wine.
 * under "Stari a puvod": "... kdysi .. nejrozsirenejsi modrou odrudou", i.e., formely most widely spread red grape in the Czech republic.
 * "All of these are global encyclopedia...." as is Wikipedia. While you are certainly welcome to add details of these other regions where the grape flourishes (with citations to reliable sources of course]], the weight and evidence of the sources still support the description of this grape as "German and Austrian" and so those descriptions should not be removed. Again, you are welcome to add your information in a WP:NPOV fashion but as a global encyclopedia we must stick to the path that the global, reliable sources take us. AgneCheese/Wine 17:52, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The fact that an encyclopepedia is global does not increase is realiability. On the contrary. If there are local and global sources, the local ones are bound to be MORE reliable, due to reasons of language, familiarity with the subject and so on. If you believe that your global sources are more reliable than my local ones, then please provide evidence for this. Nahabedere (talk) 13:32, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, global sources are able to see the bigger picture and step back from a localized, nationalistic view. They are able to keep due perspective on how things are viewed in the grand scheme of things among the world of wine. They are also subjected to more scrutiny with a worldwide audience of wine experts able to pick out faults and publish them online. Then you take into consideration the fact that many of these authors have visited many of these areas and have also collaborated with local experts (looking at the bibliography of things like the Oxford Companion and you see numerous Austrian, German, Hungarian and Czech authors cited) and you have very little reason to doubt to reliability of these sources.

So you suggest that the Czech source provides wrong information on the Czech situation due to its nationalistic view? Do you seriously believe that the Czech source is WRONG when it writes about the situation in its OWN COUNTRY? Nahabedere (talk) 16:23, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * So your Czech source had totally missed the German plantations at 4,551 ha and 4.5% in 2007 (the third most-grown dark-skinned variety), a grape variety that was Germany's most planted dark-skinned variety until circa 1977 (when it was overtaken by Pinot noir), and then the second-most planted until 2000 (when it was overtaken by Dornfelder)? Since the variety is less prominent in the Czech Republic (which has about 1/6 as much vineyards as Germany, and 1/3 as much as Austria) at 3.9% and 5th place among the dark-skinned varieties, I'm afraid this mainly tells me that your source is unreliable about things non-Czech. Within Germany, Blauer Portugieser is mainly found within Pfalz and Rheinhessen, the two largest regions, according to 2007 statistics available online. These regions do not border to Austria or the Czech Republic, so it is not correct that all B.P. is grown in one continuous region. Tomas e (talk) 19:28, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I never said that the Czech source is authorative on the situation in Germany. However, it certainly knows about the situation in the Czech republic much better than any non-Czech source. Nahabedere (talk) 16:16, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

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"Portugais" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Portugais&redirect=no Portugais] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Duckmather (talk) 04:32, 22 January 2024 (UTC)