Talk:Bleach (manga)/Archive 2

Hollows and Arankaru
Should we merge these pages? With the new info in ch. 197 and 198, there doesn't seem to be any need for separate pages, considering hollow are becoming arankaru all over. Who agrees/disagrees? -- Ynhockey 20:34, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Capitalization
Ok, we don't have a Bleach project, but still, we need to agree on capitalization of terms. The terms I mean are: shinigami, quincy, hollow, rukongai, seireitei, soul society, etc.

As it stands now, it's completely inconsistent. I vote for them to not be capitalized. Please express your opinion on this (and don't forget to reply to the previous topic in this discussion).

-- Ynhockey 22:51, 6 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I vote for capitalizing Quincy and Soul Society only, since unlike the others they're proper names. All the others are generic descriptive terms. Nezu Chiza 01:17, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes that makes sense. Although, quincy is actually kuinshi in Japanese, spelt using proper kanji and readings, so it's not the same as Soul Society. Anyway, I hope at least a couple more people will give their input on this before I go edit everything.
 * Also here's another question: should it be 'bankai' or 'ban kai'? I use bankai now, but noticed that I myself have used ban kai in the past. Neither seems particularly better, although I guess if it's shikai and not shi kai, then it should also be bankai. What are your thoughts?
 * And finally, why are these pages so dead all of a sudden? Too few contributors. I was thinking of starting a Bleach project, but if there are no regular contributors, it would be quite pointless.
 * -- Ynhockey 07:27, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I say we don't capitalize them, with the exception of Soul Society. Also, on a sidenote, is it "Quincy" or "Quincies" for the plural? The pages are probably dead because school is in full swing, I know that's why I've been absent.--Tjstrf 21:30, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Standardization of Terms 2
OK I'm going to try and go over the Bleach pages and standardize terms according to the consensus (only involves a few people since most don't seem to want to participate in discussion). Right now everyone already uses shinigami, so all that's left is to lowercase all instances of such words.

However, I just read the Wikipedia standards for Japan-related articles and it seems that they agree on using the English version of terms (i.e. soul reaper, not shinigami). I mean, we already used Quincy instead of Kuinshi. But I can't tell if it applies here. What are your opinions? Also, what about Vizard? The first person used 'vizard' so we stuck to that, but someone today edited to 'vaizaado', and this should probably at least be mentioned at least.

-- Ynhockey 04:16, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * You're confusing pronunciation with spelling. Quincy is what it actually is in both languages, Kuinshi is the phonetic spelling. Same with Vizard and Vaizaado. Basically, go with the simplified spellings for situations like that, to do anything else is rather like an insult since you'd be parroting a pronunciation based on limitations in a foreign language(also referred to as being Wapanese, aka Wanna-be Japanese). If the intent is, say, Quincy, then that's what should be in the article. As for the soul reaper/shinigami situation, I like shinigami yet feel we should bow to what the Manual of Style says, which in this case is to use the english soul reaper. Nezu Chiza 09:37, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually kuinshi is not a result of a Japanese limitation, it's a normal Japanese compound similar to senbonzakura or seireitei. However, Quincy seems to be widely accepted. But I agree with your reasoning on Vizard/Vaizaado. I agreed with Vizard but an anonymous user brought up Vaizaado which made me think. I mean, from what I know even Viz hasn't yet decided on an official spelling. -- Ynhockey 18:17, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * If you're not going to use shinigami, then "Death god" would be the more commonly used term. Ziiv 15:02, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

On reading that article, it doesn't seem to really cover when you translate and when you don't. It talks about romanization of spelling and proper names, but as far as translation goes, it only says they "should be used in its most commonly used English form in the body of an article." The discussion page, on the other hand, does yield some results that apply directly to manga/anime, but no clear consensus. (|Discussion page reference 1|Discussion page reference 2)
 * My conclusion: Status Quo, keep as is. We have no official consensus except a hazy one that you go with whatever ends up as the most popular term after the anime has been released in english. Personally, I hold with the "manga purist" viewpoint, but I understand I may be in a minority there.--Tjstrf 22:11, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, I prefer the manga purist view as well, and so do several others who tend to these articles. So you're probably in the majority here. I vote for keep as is, however. Shinigami is fine, Vizard is fine, Quincy is fine. ;) Nezu Chiza 22:27, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Plus (Bleach)
Plus (Bleach) -> do we need this article?

I've just noticed that it has been created, and IMO it's not necessary, since we really don't know that much about Pluses in Bleach. What we do know is summed up in the main article (the paragraph I added on Plus). If most agree, we should probably tag Plus (Bleach) with VfD and have it removed. -- Ynhockey 14:25, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Also some issues:
 * While Wikipedia generally advocates the use of singular rather than plural in titles, plural might still be fitting in Bleach, such as "Pluses", "Hollows" (since shinigami and Quincy are both).
 * The section 'Ichigo's family' seems completely out of place and irrelevant to the main article. Any suggestions on changing/removing it?
 * Where do we place the article about shinigami executions? So far we know about covert ops executions, execution by placing the subject in that hole (old), and soukyoku. Basically I'm wondering if it should go into Shinigami (Bleach) or Soul Society, since those are Soul Society's, not necessarily shinigami executions (but they won't fit with the article about Soul Society, which is a locale).

I see not many seem to be taking an active interest in the Bleach pages, but some of the regular contributors, please state your opinions :)

-- Ynhockey 15:06, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Plus article is unnecessary. Put it up for deletion.


 * Plurals: In what context are we talking about? Section titles? Article titles? Either way, I'd say we go with singular. Also, this would be a good place to ask, why do people keep writing "Quincys" and "Quincies" rather than "Quincy" for the plural form? I mean, "Quincies" is at least understandable, but "Quincys" is just ridiculous.
 * Ichigo's family: Removal is probably best. It would make a good section under the character page though.
 * We have an article about Shinigami executions? Since when? If you are talking about a section, probably under the Soul Society article. This might involve a change in the entire purpose of the Soul Society article, however, from simply being about the location to being about the society itself.

--Tjstrf 02:35, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Another issue on standardization of terms:

Do we call Yamamoto Captain-Commander or General?

I vote General, because not only is sōtaichō closer to general than a 'captain-commander' in meaning, but also we're using a normal English rank (lieutenant) for fukutaichō, and captain for taichō which actually means 'commander' (more or less). For now I'm putting down General, but if you feel otherwise, please say it here.

-- Ynhockey 21:32, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Another vote to delete the Plus article. Seems unnecessary to me.

As for Yama-jii, either are fine I think. General seems less unwieldy than Captain-Commander, which is what I've seen in various fansite descriptions.

yueni 21:56, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah it seems captain-commander is almost a universally accepted term now, but so is vice-captain, which is not what we're using. Moreover, no offense to Bleach fansites, but they tend to be run by those who don't know/care about the more logical name, thinking that anything the fansub/scanlation groups decide is 'cool'. This is a bad attitude IMO, since scanlation groups have been all-out wrong on Bleach terms before, the reason being that they translated the manga before chapters were released clarifying what the term really means in practice. In any case, Lunar Anime is widely recognized to be the best Bleach fansubber though, so I'll get their version of episode 54 today to see how they subbed 'soutaichou'. -- Ynhockey 22:02, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Good points all. I believe Lunar subbed 'soutaichou' as Commander, but I'll have to rewatch #54 tonight to be doubly sure. Maybe Commander would be a good alternative to the hyphenated captain-commander or general (which I don't see anywhere). As for VC vs. lieutenant, both versions have been used throughout, so that at least, is easily recognisable. -- yueni 22:07, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

The main problem I see with 'commander' is that it doesn't give the user a clear idea of how this commander stands against the captain rank. So someone unfamiliar with Bleach or Yamamoto would be confused. However, we can always use two terms (e.g. Yamamoto is the commander (general) of the Gotei 13); but it's best to reach one 'more' accepted term for the places where short descriptions are used (e.g. Characters in Bleach series). -- Ynhockey 23:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Final touches
I realized now that the Bleach coverage in Wikipedia is nearly whole. However, there are still some holes to fill, which I hope to put down here. If someone has more 'holes' to suggest, please post them. I hope to 'complete' the Bleach coverage in the coming week (starting Nov 06). Obviously even after completion, things like copyedits and updates will be needed, but they will be cosmetic. So, here are the current issues:


 * Articles that need to be created: Tatsuki Arisawa and Don Kanonji. Possibly Keigo Asano, Karin Kurosaki and Yuzu Kurosaki. I don't think we need any more articles, but possibly one about the Shiba clan. Also, a list of Bleach manga chapters would be helpful (in a separate article), but it's not imperative.


 * Artiches that need to be re-organized: Basically all the 'race' articles, such as Shinigami (Bleach), Quincy (Bleach), Vizard and Hollow (Bleach). I've almost finished touching up the Shinigami article (you'll notice a whole new build, images, etc.), but the others are still somewhat unorganized and sloppy.


 * Images - IMO we need at least one image on each character article, and a few more for the generic articles. I plan to upload a bunch, but it would be helpful if everyone uploaded some.

This are basically all the issues that I can see right now.

By the way, I proposed a barnstar a few weeks ago at the Barnstar and Award Proposals page, it's at the bottom, called Anime and Manga Barnstar. Please express your thoughts. I'm hesitating to put the barnstar on the main page, since someone expressed concern over the copyright status and stuff, but overall the response (for the only 2 users who replied) has been positive.

-- Ynhockey || Talk 11:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Legality
OK, no one seems to reply to most of my concerns, but I'll post the next one anyway, maybe at least someone will read it. My current question is, would it be legal to include sound clips of how each character name is pronounced directly from the Bleach anime? -- Ynhockey || Talk 11:22, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
 * It is legal (in the U.S.) to sample up to 30 seconds of a song for fair use. IANAL, and I have no idea how that would apply here. Are there any native Japanese speakers here that would like to record and upload (with a liberal license) the pronunciations of some of these names? That would be a better alternative. &#126; MDD4696 (talk &bull; contribs) 05:16, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Bleach Anime
(This material was on a page created by User:Lanserj630 and was overwritten when User:Antaeus Feldspar turned it into a redirect. Hu 00:53, 16 December 2005 (UTC))


 * Bleach manga was originally created by Kubo Tite. As the manga became popular the anime was created which broadcasts at 6:30pm on Tuesdays on TV Tokyo in Japan. Viz Media currently translate the manga into English and is distributed globally.


 * Bleach is an animated japanese cartoon series about Kurosaki Ichigo who looks just like any average 15 year old teenager with only one big difference; he can see ghosts. Rukia Kuchiki, a Shinigami (Soul Reaper or death god) sets out on a mission to find an evil spirit called a Hollow whos target is none other than Ichigo. Rukia and Ichigo confront each other the first time that they meet, though they quickly put aside their differences once Ichigo’s family gets endangered by the Hollow and the only way to stop it was for Rukia, who was injured in combat with the Hollow, to transfer her Shinigami powers to Ichigo because he has a strong spiritual force. The concurrence of Rukia and Ichigo leads to many adventures, with a lot of humor along the way. Ichigo helps Rukia fight off Hollows and keep the town safe. The story takes many odd twists and turns along the way with plenty of comedy along the way.

Story Arc Names
People keep changing them regularly, always anonymous IP or new contributors...and NOT ONE seems to have a source they've provided as to where they're getting the names. I recommend removing the Arc name section unless and until someone provides a verifiable source, because it's getting REALLY annoying at the rather constant changes made to the section every day or so. Nezu Chiza 23:11, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, you can verified the names from the DVDs, e.g. the first set is "Shinigami Daiko" and the second "Soul Society Sennyu", then "Soul Society Kyushutsu" (this is going purely on the CDJapan listings). What you can't verify are the translations until there is a US release. Shiroi Hane 23:28, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The changes I made earlier today involved translating them directly from the DVD volumes, but I'm not sure of the episodes that are within the arc. I purposely didn't include "Soul Society" in the Sennyu and Kyushutsu translations because they seemed to be an identifier on the DVD volumes that it took place in Soul Society rather than a part of the name. Soulsteelgray 01:35, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The names of the different seasons are written in English on the back of some DVDs. I think it's DVDs 3, 4, & 5 that say "AGENT OF THE SOUL REAPER" & DVDs 8, 9, & 10 that say "THE SNEAK ENTRY SERIES". So it should say the name for season 3 on the back of DVD # 13 when it comes out. You can go here [] to see the DVD volumes.
 * Ah, I see. I had no idea those translations were on the back of the DVDs. Soulsteelgray 22:52, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the story arcs for now for 2 reasons: However, I still support moving them to the Media Information page and reaching a consensus regarding translation. -- Ynhockey 12:14, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It apparently wasn't clear to at least one editor (unregistered) so far that these arc names are just for familiarization and not for in-depth info, so he added a full episode guide. Therefore, even arc names may be too in-depth for the main Bleach (manga) article and should be moved to media information at least.
 * We only have Japanese names that are verifiable, except the English DVD captions, which weren't what we had in the first place. Basically, everyone will keep changing the translations to what they like, we're better off without them, since it's not very important info anyway.

Time Line
I find this page very informative and i am in love with the series, but could someone explain deaths in Soul Society and how time works there. Are people reincarnated? Or are they dead forever, because, technically, that is your soul dying? Also, I would like to know how old Rukia is. In the beginning, doesn't she say that she is about 100 years old, but if we follow the timeline in the last arc, that isn't possible. HELP!
 * From what's been shown in the anime and manga, time flows at about the same rate in Soul Society and the human world. When someone dies in Soul Society(unless the soul is destroyed), they're reborn as someone new in the human world. In fact, a common fan belief is that Ichigo is the reincarnation of Kaien Shiba. While the evidence for this belief is somewhat circumstantial(looks similiar, was born around the time Kaien died in SS), there's no evidence AGAINST it. As for Rukia's age, I suspect she was exaggerating. If you keep in mind that her sister died 50 years before the current time, and had been married to Byakuya for 6 years, that accounts for 55 years. But Hisana left Rukia while the latter was a baby, so unless Hisana wandered around on her own for 95 YEARS before marrying Byakuya(Rukia told Ichigo she was ten times his age of 15), then Rukia is much younger than she said. And I can easily see her stating she's older than she really is to make herself seem more experienced than she really is. Nezu Chiza 23:46, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * When and where does it say when a person dies in Soul Society they're reborn in the human world? --AngelusInsomnus 11:18, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * What else *WOULD* happen then, though - if you die AFTER you..died. This whole "spirit world" thing is questionable, when almost everything from the land of the living applies there. It's more an alternate universe, geared towards facilitating good anime and manga, than a proper afterlife...203.133.255.34 06:03, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

From the SOULs and VIBEs official DataBooks.
 * We can't put info into an article on the basis of healthy logic, but I believe the Bleach Infobook, or one of the other special Bleach-related publications, states that souls who die in Soul Society are born into the human world. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 07:15, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Character Name Standardization/Name Order
I realize that most of the character names in wikipedia are in the English order as opposed to the Japanese order, a complete 180 shift from the last time that I was active in the bleach articles (~6 or 8 months I guess). I have looked through this talk page and Characters in Bleach series talk and haven't found any discussion related to this topic except for one rudimentary comment. Was there ever discussion on this topic? The Anime and manga wikiproject states that "Characters should be called what the series officially states their romaji names as. If that does not exist, use what they are named in the most recent or popular English translation, if it exists, isn't egregiously bad, and is the generally-used name (a google test is appropriate here). Otherwise, use a literal transliteration." Google test reveals "Kurosaki Ichigo" (116,000 hits) overwhelmingly in support as opposed to "Ichigo Kurosaki" (22,100 hits). Results are even more stark with Kuchiki Byakuya (74,300 hits) as opposed to Byakuya Kuchiki (804 hits). In short, no one uses the English convention EVER except for wikipedians. It is not the place of wikipedia to make their own interpretations of facts; fandom overwhelmingly supports Japanese name, something that is upheld in the neighboring Naruto wikis despite also having "official" English translations. I am not saying that we should abandon the English, but could we pursue a policy of labelling Japanese first and using English as a sidenote?

I would like a concensus on this, or point me to where previous discussion has taken place.

Hobbeslover 03:39, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Change. It'll be a whole lot of page moves and redirection. But it does make the most sense. --Tjstrf 04:02, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Leave as is. The order of Japanese names has been long contentious around Wikipedia, but that's because most people aren't reading the  argument at the style manual: that "It has been official Monbusho (Ministry of Education etc) policy to write Japanese names in English as given-name family-name order since Meiji times. All the English language media uses GN-FN order, all the newspapers, the offical broadcaster NHK and all radio stations."  The poster also stated that "I believe it has changed recently to make this optional but the number of people doing this is low (eg Utada Hikaru). In my opinion this just makes it confusing. Korean and Chinese names are usually kept in their traditional order but if they become citizens of English speaking nations they have to change. My name gets swapped around in Japanese, surname, firstname middlename and I don't complain, when in Rome..."  With the grand majority of post-Meiji Japanese names as GN-FN, to suddenly decide to go the opposite route is going to be not only contrary to Wiki standards, but also will cause a lot of chaos and disorder.  Therefore, my suggestion is to leave them in place as is, and perhaps place a note at top that due to Wiki style we go with GN-SN, though it is typically found as SN-GN.--Mitsukai 16:39, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, well I am also using a style set by the Anime and manga wikiproject. Your manual of style relates to REAL people. Anime and manga are a bit different, because we have to go by what is actually used. Wikipedia should strive for accuracy, and this should reflect facts as well as what is actually done. Wikipedia can't be this closed minded sphere that enforces unrealistic naming conventions, seeing as how NO ONE uses first name last name convention. IMO, it's actually more disorder to use English convention because it's simply not what we are used to. Hobbeslover 00:06, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The style manual covers names, period, not real vs. fictional.  I understand that you're using the Anime and manga project, but I'm wondering if they've compared this to the overall style manual (which is the final authority regarding these issues).  I'm thinking the whole thing should be brought up there, because for Bleach characters to be changed, while other characters in other series are not looks seriously out of place.--Mitsukai 03:11, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Hobbeslover. It isn't our place to change the names (which are copyrighted) of the characters in ANYTHING. I say show the names as presented in Bleach. OmniAngel 16:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * We are not changing the names of anything, as names themselves conform to whatever language a person is using; furthermore, personal names cannot be copyrighted (the characters, not the names, are the intellectual property). If you want to change the names how they are presented in the series - or in any Japanese series, for that matter - it will have to be done at the style manual level.  For us to change the Bleach articles to be out of step with the rest of the articles in Wikipedia is doing a grave disservice to the project.--Mitsukai 16:50, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It may be worth mentioning that, in the Japanese Bleach game for the PSP, names are written and spoken in GN-FN order. Shiroi Hane 10:16, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Which order gets the point across better to the readers, if any? The anime doesn't exist in english yet, so the fans are more used to the SN-GN order at present. Perhaps this, like shinigami, should be kept in japanese (order) until the anime is officially released stateside, then changed at that point? The manual of style exists as a guideline based on what is less confusing. --Tjstrf 17:45, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * What does the English manga use (never seen a copy here in the UK)? Clearly that would take preference at this point, an official translation of that exists and the article is, after all, called Bleach (manga), not Bleach (anime). Shiroi Hane 19:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * No clue. I've seen it before, but never noticed the name order. That's a good idea though. Could someone who owns a copy help us out? --Tjstrf 20:39, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * English manga uses given name/family name. So it's Ichigo Kurosaki, as an example. Nezu Chiza 21:30, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, but no one uses that name ordering anyway. It's done to reach mainstream America but for the purposes of Wikipedia, I think that the FN-GN ordering would be a better choice, especially considering that most of the people here are more used to the Japanese name ordering and as google test shows, no one uses the English ordering. Hobbeslover 04:19, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * You must have a strange concept of "no one" that I've never come across before, since it's already been stated that both Viz and SCEJ, who I think can be considered official sources, use western name order, and last time I checked, it was SCEA's job to "reach mainstream America" and they haven't even released an English version of Heat the Soul to my knowledge. Shiroi Hane 10:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Keep as is - sorry I'm late for this discussion, but as you probably know I agree with Mitsukai. Not only is it Wikipedia police to write in GN-FN in English, but also if this is what Viz does, IMO this discussion should be over. In any case, I think using FN-GN is giving too much credit to the fandom (which has vandalized the Bleach articles on Wikipedia dozens if not hundreds of times, come up with ludicrous theories that stayed in articles since no one could disprove them, etc.), and disregarding proper rules. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 11:06, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It may be true that a lot of the bleach fandom are idiots, but that can't be a reflection upon the entire fandom. Just because a few people vandalize the pages or add in their ludicrous theories to the pages doesn't mean that they don't always have a point. But whatever, it seems that I am outnumbered and won't win anyway :\ Hobbeslover 22:44, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Whatever the decision, everything needs to be changed one way or the other. Right now, BOTH are used (GN-FN and FN-GN), sometimes even for the same character. It is currently impossible for somebody unfamiliar with BLEACH to determine characters' GN and FN, since the order is random. I'm in favour of the FN-GN order, but since the consensus is obviously GN-FN, I might start rearranging things to GN-FN for the sake of consistency. Guspaz 06:01, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually we have very good consistency on this by comparison. Whenever I or any other frequent editor notices the wrong order, we fix it immediately. If you're referring to a case where we didn't notice, more power to you to fix it, as it will help our articles. -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 08:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Just in case anyone brings this subject up again, please notice that even in the Japanese manga, when spelled in English, the name ordering is GN-FN (see any character profile in the Bleach databook). -- Ynhockey (Talk) 20:09, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Bleach's First Ever Filler (Arc)
I'm just going for opinions right now... what does everyone think of the newest filler episodes? I've been watching and I find that most of it just seems really out of character for all those involved... but what do you think... is it worth my time to watch or should I just get my bleach fix off the manga until the anime comes back to the manga plot?
 * Don't Bother, I've seen both episodes of it so far, and trust me, it is nothing special. If fact, it makes Renji look like a complete idiot and Ishida even lamer.


 * If mothing else the animation quality seems to have taken a dive. I wouldn't call it the first filler though, as they've gone off the plot a few times before. Shiroi Hane 10:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * There have been worse filler arcs (the third season of Rurouni Kenshin comes to mind), and it's only natural that sooner or later, the animation was going to go down slightly for budgetary reasons - that's one of the banes of a long-running series.--み使い Mitsukai 14:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I like 'em so far. I don't really see what you mean at all by "out of character."  The one relatively minor thing that bothers me the most about it is how Ishida could possibly know the phrase "kaizo konpaku" and what it meant, since that whole mess was a Shinigami affair and likely before his time; I suppose it's possible there might be something about it in the Quincy writings. In any case, it looks as if this arc is only going to last seven episodes or so to give the manga and anime some breathing room.  --AngelusInsomnus 11:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * There's also the possibility that Ichigo may have explained Kon's existence to Ishida "off camera".--み使い Mitsukai 16:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * fillers? what episodes? cuz the newest ones i have seen (the ones where Oione gets kidnaped then Sado/Chado gets nabbed by the 2 dudes and the little girl) seem to follow a new arc. i think i might be having a stupid moment. OmniAngel 12:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Episodes 64 to present at the time of this writing are an original story and do not have a basis in the original Bleach manga, and therefore can be classified as "filler" (the manga being the "main" story.) --AngelusInsomnus 14:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * ahhhhhh ok. thank you for the clairification :) OmniAngel 15:42, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * 1, the filler arc started off poorly but got better towards the latter half and the new arc looks decent. 2, while on the subject of the new arc, i added in a section on the Bound in Races (for those of you who haven't seen 68 yet don't look). 123fakestreet
 * Wait a tick... I thought it was "Bount" with a T? AngelusInsomnus 00:21, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Archive
Due to the growing size of this page, topics older than October 2005 have been archived at Talk:Bleach (manga)/Archive 1.--み使い  Mitsukai  16:14, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

British or American?
I noticed recently that users have been changing British English spelling to American English. We need to reach a consensus on which to use. I personally don't care, but there needs to be consistence. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 07:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

There's a difference in the spelling of the English language from country to country? When did this happen? -- Makaio 03:10, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Based on the Manual of Style, it really depends on several factors:
 * Articles should use the same dialect throughout.
 * If an article's subject has a strong tie to a specific region/dialect, it should use that dialect.
 * If there's no strong tie, try to find synonyms that can be used in any dialect.
 * If no such words can be agreed upon, the dialect of the first significant contributor (not a stub) should be used.
 * --TheFarix 17:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

LOL! There's always been a difference in grammatical syntax for English all over the world. Bristish English is where all English derives from, but there are subtle differences like "favourite" (British & Canadian spelling) versus "favorite". Personally I hope we go with Canadian English!--Miss Ethereal 15:40, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

If no such words can be agreed upon, the dialect of the first significant contributor (not a stub) should be used.

I think only this clause applies to our case, but I don't think it's a very logical guideline. However, for the record, we started with British/Canadian spelling and gradually moved to American. The reason I didn't oppose this was because the English version of Bleach probably uses American spelling, and the anime will use American pronunciation when it's dubbed into English (most likely). However, in principle, I also think British/Canadian is better. Let's wait till this discussion ends to see the results, but so far British/Canadian has the lead in votes from what I understand. -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 16:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Living world
I know no one cares about this talk page, but... Should it be living world, material world or human world for all Bleach-related articles? I vote for human world, as used on the main page. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 05:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The thing about that is that it's not just humans who reside in there. Quincy and Bount also live in there as well. I think it should be changed to "living world" as "material world" sounds like a rip from the Legacy of Kain series. -- 03:08, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, nevermind, you're right, human world would be best... just saw some of the confusion. -- Makaio 03:35, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Arrancar pages
Again, although nobody seems to care about this page, I'll bring up yet another issue: some arrancar pages - i.e. Shawlong Qu Fong, Il Forte Grantz and Edorad Leones - deal with minor characters who are already dead and aren't important to the storyline of Bleach. I think they should all be merged into one article, something like Arrancar in Bleach, where detailed descriptions for each should be given, without spreading the butter too thin (little info over 3 articles). -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 17:40, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

It's hard to explain my thoughts on that take. As I think it would be a good idea, but we already have an Arrancar section in the Characters in Bleach series. You bring up a good point, so i'll go with whatever the popular consensus is if perhaps one or two other people comment. -- Makaio 03:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I am open for suggestions, because I also don't think that having one article about a few odd arrancar is the best option (but can't think of anything better). However, we cannot possibly includes all the details given about these arrancar in Characters in Bleach series, and we don't want to lose any important information. Moreover, we already have an article called Urahara Shōten which gives descriptions and somewhat more detailed info about Jinta, Tessai and Ururu. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 17:49, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

True, but you have to keep in mind that Jinta, Tessai and Ururu haven't really been explained at all. Those three arrancar had alot of information about them packed into those chapters. As well as considering the article on the Urahara Shoten is about as long as one of the arrancar profiles, I think it should be just let be. -- Makaio 05:05, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually the articles about the arrancar are artificially bloated. Without the synopsis (which can be added for any character, including Ururu etc. but isn't that important), I could probably condense the article about each of them into the same 5 lines as the description of Ururu. But it's good that you reminded me, if I will have time now, I'll expand the Urahara Shōten article to include more detailed descriptions. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 17:55, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Groovy. At least something came of the discussion. -- Makaio 02:26, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Día de Muertos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hollow_%28Bleach%29#D.C3.ADa_de_Muertos No response in the Hollow talk so..

Anyone else feel that the Day of the Dead should be mentioned as a possible source of inspiration? The similarities between the grotesque Hollow masks and those used in the Mexican celebration sure warrant at least a passing reference, along with the computer game Grim Fandango as well if we could get away with it :) -- Adahn 08:01, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Considering this is going to be a featured article soon, let's keep all probable sources of inspiration and other speculations down to a minimum. -- Makaio 02:59, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It's going to be a featured article? -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 17:51, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It's getting... buffed, to attain the standards of a featured article. Presumabley after that, nomination to become a featured article. So in other words, soon... On an interesting note, Soon, in a US court of law, is the description of an action taking place within the period of 185 days... :( yeah I know i'm an idiot... -- Makaio 05:06, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Fansites in external links
My comment is twofold: -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 17:26, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Should non-English fansites (not to be confused with official sites) be allowed in this page? I vote no.
 * 2) Should there be a specific criteria other than Bleach-related when adding external links? A few of these sites are fairly sub-standard or just have the same info as larger fansites, only later and less of it. I think we should clean up the section and introduce criteria. In fact, I'm going to remove one poor website right now.


 * No, non-English fansites do not belong on an English-based article... nothing against the sites, it's just that most of the people on the english section of Wikipedia don't speak Japanese.
 * Yes, however lets start the level of expectation off somewhat low, otherwise we'll have about 4 sites left on the external links. -- Makaio 00:23, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually 4 fansites sounds pretty fair. By comparison, Naruto (anime and manga) doesn't have any fansites at all. However, I think more than 4 will remain from the current since they're not that bad. As for non-English fansite, I was actually referring to the Finnish one, which I'm going to delete right now. -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 08:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Capitalisation of the title
I find the move from Bleach to BLEACH strange. Articles on Wikipedia generally don't have titles in all-caps. And if you check Category:Manga series you will see that almost no other manga has the title in all-caps except those whose titles are acronyms like MÄR. I wonder how Bleach is different. Jeltz talk  16:15, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I didn't move Bleach (manga) to BLEACH, and I have double thoughts about the move. On one hand, it makes editing easier because of link formatting and stuff, and also BLEACH is never spelled Bleach except in Viz, but on the other hand it looks ugly and Bleach is the more logical spelling, and surely will be used in any English version of the manga. For now I went with the move to make editing easier (and changed all Bleach to BLEACH because someone started doing this), but it may need to be reverted. We should probably vote. My current vote is: Keep title as is, however, change back all instances of BLEACH to Bleach. -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 15:18, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * My English (VIZ) vol 1 manga uses BLEACH on the copyright page and elsewhere, as far as I can tell. - mako 15:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * All fansites that I have seen write Bleach and Amazon and other bookstores writes Bleach too when they sell the Viz translations. I have actually only seen it written as BLEACH are when writtten in Japanese and I guess that that could be because all-caps looks better when mixed with Japanese characters. I'm not that knowledagble about this, but I was suprised to see this article moved to BLEACH since that seems to go against the common practice of manga and anime articles on English Wikipedia and also against how most people I have seen writes the title when writing in English. Jeltz talk  11:15, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Jeltz has raisins, listen to him. I suggest moving the article back, dab by caps is discouraged on wikip, and people have a bad habit of taking the odd prior-change as precedent for mass moves and other such time wastes. --zippedmartin 21:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

fan pages
We currently have eleven external links to fan pages. A few seconds ago, I just reverted an anon who edited in one site and took out another. I put Bleach7 back, (highest google ranking must mean something, for now at least) and also left whatever the anon put in. Anyway, who else thinks that eleven is too many? We can't really just choose one though, either, out of fairness. Any suggestions? --Anaraug 11:36, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think there should be as few fan websites as possible. However, some major ones have to remain, such as Bleach7 and Bleach Portal. Actually those two are by far the biggest. But I think there are another two or 3 notable enough to stay. I think we should do Google checks and content checks on the sites themselves to determine whether they should stay. -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 18:42, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Since Wikipedia respects copyright issues and most of the current "fan sites" are for downloading illegal content i'll remove them (see Naruto and its talk page), adding a link to the Google directory link. I hope this is fair and satisfactory. feydey 22:22, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think what they're doing (e.g. letting users download full episodes and music) is legal under US law because it's not produced in the US. Maybe that has changed recently though as Bleach was licensed by Viz a couple weeks ago. -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 23:06, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Please read about copyrights before making such faulty claims (..is legal under US law because it's not produced in the US). feydey 23:46, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Please assume good faith and civility before commenting. Also, things like scanlations definitely qualify as fair use if the product is not licensed by a US firm. I'm not sure about episodes, I never said I was. Also keep in mind that many of these sites offer only torrents and don't have direct downloads of the material you consider illegal. As of yet, the US doesn't have a law against torrents, even though the MPAA has successfully shut down a bunch of torrent sites, mostly in Europe. I'm not trying to get Wikipedia into trouble, but linking to a site which links to material which may or may not be illegal is questionable at best. Before accusing other editors of making 'faulty claims', you should probably explain your stance better, instead of just removing all the fan sites (some of which, by the way, like the large gallery, neither have any content that might be illegal, or even links to such content). -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 00:19, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * So here is my comment: 1) Links should be good faith examined to determine if they infringe copyrights, with the assumption that a torrent of a copyrighted file infringes copyrights.1 2) Read Talk:BitTorrent and WP:C 3) notice that BitTorrent page has no external links to torrent pages like mininova or piratebay 4) That someone, who agrees with You is user Kniveswood who did the reversals with no edit summary explanations and with a false summary: Removed offending popup sites and despite my recommendation to explain that here; and anon IP 203.92.64.114 5) The reason why I didn't comment to Your response is just that I had made my point and You did not essentialy disagree with me and I expected persons interested in the linking of torrent sites to come and comment in this thread. Also remember Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a container for external links 2, 3. And I just didn't destroy the fan page links, I added a link to Google directory 1 where plenty of fan pages can be found. I hope all this above helps You understanding this issue. Finally I'd like to apologize if my comment was rude, and if You have more questions please contact me, feydey 16:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe that now that both the Bleach manga and the anime are licensed in the US, downloading either one is a form of copyright infringement and therefore you are right removing fansites such as bleachportal from the list of reference sites. As for the music downloads, I am not so sure because there are no real international copyright laws and I don't think any of these bands have copyrights in the US... so downloading J-Rock and J-Pop off of these sites may not be illegal. But again, I'm not completely sure on that... Bleach Babe 17:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It is always copyright infringement, even if it isn't licensed in the USA. The language doens't matter for copyright law, and neither does the nationality of the copyright holder. If it is licensed or not in the USA just matters because some people think that it is more likly to get sued by an American company than a Japanese. But I don't know if we should remove the links to the sites. We should obviously not have any links to sites that just contain scans and fansubs, but these sites are fansites too. I don't know how we should handle such cases. Google links to the same sites in the Google directory. Jeltz talk  17:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not a matter of language; it's a matter of LAW. I'm not saying that it's right to download this music, I'm just saying that it isn't illegal. There are different copyright laws in Japan than in the US. Hence the existance of doujinshi; in Japan authors can write a different story using the same characters, unlike in the US. But that's beside the point. These downloads are how many of these bands get exposure in the US. So it's really not such a bad thing if you think about it. But that's just my humble opinion... Bleach Babe 02:25, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * What you talk about is ethics. I talked about law. TThe copyright law is different in Japan, yes, but I bet that you still can copyright comcis and cartoons. The copyright law is quite similar in almost all nations. I think that in every nations except for perhaps one or two have a copyright law which is fundamentally the same as what most nations have. It doesn't matter if it doesn't hurt the copyright holder it is still illegal (yes it is illegal even if it makes the copyright holder rich). The damages only matters for determinig how much money they can sue you for. You always have to get permission before redistributing other peoples works. Jeltz talk  10:34, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

So, should one of us hire a couple of lawyers for about $30 and hour to review this case so they can tell us we're debating too much, OR, should we just not have the links in question? -- Makaio 20:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree; this is stupid... I think that as long as we make some type of disclaimer about Fansites somewhere on the page, then we should be fine to leave them up under the fansite heading that they're already under. Besides, they do provide a great reference for those wishing to learn more about the series. Bleach Babe 21:13, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Bleach on Adult Swim
As of March 30, 2006, Bleach has been licensed by VIS Media and will likely be playing on Adult Swim in the Fall around 12:30am. (According to adultswim.com) I'm just kind of going for opinions here: What does everyone think of Bleach being on Cartoon Network's Adult Swim? Bleach Babe 15:40, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a good thing. This way much of the hsow will remain intact. COme to think of it, COULD it be shone anywhere else with out editing out most of the show? OptimusShr 15:48, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That's true but what about the dubbing job? And I'm still worried some important parts will be cut out due to censorship... :-\ I'd hate for a good series like this to get bastardized like so many others have... Bleach Babe 17:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I think that it wont be edited too bad, since stuff on AS isnt usually edited. And VIZ isnt too bad on its current dubbing projects... Just look at Naruto.GhostStalker 01:22, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Are we all watching the same show? Naruto's dubbing is terrible! I pray that Bleach has a better dubbing job than Naruto!! Ferrisgirl 02:09, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. Bleach Babe 02:26, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I dont think the dubbing for naruto is that bad... There might be a couple of voices that dont fit characters, but the general consensus is that the dub is actually pretty good. Not like the bastardization that is One Piece...GhostStalker 23:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * All they need to do is get some good voice talent... Crispin Freeman would make a great Kenpachi. -- Makaio 20:10, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It really always comes down to the voice actors... I guess I'm just partial to original voice acting. And this is where the sub/dub dispute comes into play... sigh. Ahh well. I got my answer. Thanks all!! Bleach Babe 20:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * What I really want to know is, how do all of you compare fansubbing to DVD subtitles? Now that Lunar, and DB are banned from producing English subtitles for all upcoming new Japanese episodes, I guess there will be gutted anime fans around world. I bought myself an InuYasha dvd, and I think the subtitles are too small and not bold enough, if the Japanese voices are swearing, who knows, they might subtitle with just simple words like "jerk" or "bastard", which isn't good for the hardcore anime fans, but fine with me because a despise swearing on all occassions. Anyways, what was the question again? (works every time...) Darkroom Danny 07:35, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, I think DB is still doing their subbing of Bleach...GhostStalker 05:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * 1. DB is still subbing. 2. I love fan subs, sure they can be screwy, but that's what makes them great. For the fans by the fans!! :)

Bleach has been liscensed....
So we really need to help keep spoilers hidden for everything Bleach related.

Pompadour Samurai 04:06, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Um... no we don't. A spoiler warning is given, if you continue on then its fair game... and it always helps to sign your name as well, so if you could please do that in the future. Thanks in advance. -- Makaio 01:39, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

That's what I mean. A couple of the pages about the characters had spoiler about Aizen right in the beginning. I fixed a couple myself. I also think it might be time to put pictures with less spoilers in them (if we havent already).

Pompadour Samurai 04:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)