Talk:Blind men and an elephant

referencing to Buddhist texts
I've corrected some of the references but I think not all repetitions, and I don't know Wikipedia's referencing format so they may not be technically formatted correctly for Wikipedia, but they do at least make sense now. Udana is the name of a book. 6.4 is the chapter and sutta/sutra number. Normally within Buddhist texts the intra-textual referencing is to sutta/ sutra names, not books and numbers, so in this case it's the Tittha sutta. A good non-sectarian source for primary text references is suttacentral.net, which is a comparative correspondence index of all the available different ancient language recensions and many translations. It also makes clearer the structure and history of the texts. Referencing to page numbers of the PTS edition is only handy if you're in a university or somewhere with the print edition books, which are not online, and it falsely implies that the Pali / Theravada recension is the only or primary one, which is a sectarian bias. E.g. for the Tittha sutta/sutra there are two Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit recensions, one of which was likely transmitted by the Mulasarvastivadin school, as it was later translated into Tibetan. KesterR (talk) 22:44, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Discrepancy
About the "Blind Men" print to the right side of the page, how can that have been published in the 1880's if Hanabusa Itchō died a century before? PeterTheWall (talk) 01:14, 19 September 2008 (UTC) YES THAT IS A BIG PROBLEM! SOME ONE FACT CHECK THIS!

Absurdity in presentation
Started the article but you do not even know that this story is originally from hindu panchtantra supposed to be written in 200-300 BC by a Brahmin Pandit Vishnu Sharma, that went to Arab world through translation. Deliberately keeping Hinduism at the end and not giving original source of history of this parable. Dishonest and/or false presentation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.205.42.232 (talk) 06:54, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Encouragement
Nice article, well done! Glad to see the nasty comments some people made in one of your discussions didn't discourage you! I'm making a few minor edits, though. IamthatIam 19:34, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks! It did bother me for a while but I got over it. But it really upset Gerina. I don't think she's posted anything since! I hope she comes back. Some people are totally rude. I think they should be banned! But I'm not an admin. Binky The WonderSkull 05:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Sadly, there's an attitude prevalent which seems to think that "politeness" is anachronistic in these modern times. Certain folks would do well to realise that it's actually an evolved, useful species trait which enables H.sap to function in social conditions which would drive non-domesticated species to violence. Musings aside, if anyone's in contact with Gerina, do let her know that there *are* folks who appreciate her, and hope to see her back sometime. Drjon 02:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if it's appropriate for me to be adding, but the Apocrypha also contains an earlier Discordian Blind Men and Elephant story (see page 80) by Robert Anton Wilson. Perhaps someone might like to add the information to this article as well? Or if it's not a conflict of interest, I will add the information myself. Drjon 02:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Drjon you have a link for that? I'd think about adding it but there's a particular Wikipedian who didn't like some comments I made about him and tries to get everything I do deleted. IamthatIam 01:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The version that Robert Anton Wilson wrote under the penname Reverend Loveshade is a lot more famous than the one he wrote under his legal name. I don't think it's necessary to add that one too. MRN 17:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, not only are there two different earlier Discordian Blind Men and Elephant stories (references to follow), I think you'll find that the author of the version mentioned here is not the same individual as Robert Anton Wilson. Drjon 23:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

An Elephant is...
Sam Gross, U.S. cartoonist best known for his work in the National Lampoon, published several collections, one of which (1982) was titled after a panel cartoon depicting the blind men...one of whom was elbow-deep in dung, making the astute observation "An Elephant is Soft and Mushy!"

I looked up this story as a means to explain to students that to have a complete representation of reality you can't rely on a partial reading, through a single observation, but you must integrate or sum up different sources and points of view. I find it strange that the main conclusions to the story go in the opposite direction, that a correct reading of reality is out of reach, unattainable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hepf (talk • contribs) 18:41, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I thought it originated in China.... in which there were three blind men
http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/blind_men_elephant.html says so, though I am unsure of its credibility.

Discordian
Then there's this earlier Discordian version, from Illuminatus!:


 * Five stoned men were in a courtyard when an elephant entered.


 * The first man was stoned on sleep, and he saw not the elephant, but dreamed instead of things unreal to those awake.


 * The second man was stoned on nicotine, caffeine, DDT, carohydrate excess, protein deficiency, and the other chemicals in the diet which the Illuminati have enforced upon the half-awake to keep them from fully waking. "Hey," he said, "there's a big, smelly beast in our courtyard."


 * The third stoned man was on grass, and he said, "No, dads, that's the Ghostly Old Party in its true nature, the Dark Nix on the soul," and he giggled in a silly way.


 * The fourth stoned man was tripping on peyote, and he said, "You see not the mystery, for the elephant is a poem written in tons instead of words," and his eyes danced.


 * The fifth stoned man was on acid, and he said nothing, merely worshiping the elephant in silence as the Father of Buddha.


 * And then the Hierophant entered and drove a nail of mystery into all their hearts, saying, "You are all elephants!"


 * Nobody understood him.

--FOo (talk) 08:34, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Origins
Is there a serious dispute? The Buddhist version is in the Udana, an ancient text (long before Sufis were invented). As far as I can tell, the Jain sources are much later. Peter jackson (talk) 10:34, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Minor Correction
Bayer is a german company: http://www.bayer.com/en/imprint.aspx HenryCauthon (talk) 22:21, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

War and Peace
Isn't there a tale in one of the epilogues of War and Peace (here: http://www.online-literature.com/tolstoy/war_and_peace/356/, where people are asked what makes a railway locomotive move? It seems quite similar to this tale, so perhaps include it in Modern Treatments? Murukesh Mohanan (talk) 20:51, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Werner Where?
Can we have a citation for the Heisenberg quote?Lestrade (talk) 13:41, 14 October 2012 (UTC)Lestrade

Rhyming in English?
Yeah so the Bhuddah spoke English and liked to write in rhymes! Cool. Also... someone might want to check the sources for accuracy or at the very least move modern interpretations to the modern interpretation section. 68.42.144.46 (talk) 21:06, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Heisenberg quote
I'd love it if this line from the article is true - does anyone have a source for it?

"We have to remember that what we observe is not nature in itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg

85.255.234.245 (talk) 20:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Dead External Link
Hi All, the external link: Buddhist Version as found in Jainism and Buddhism. Udana hosted by the University of Princeton at http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~rywang/berkeley/258/parable.html returns a 404 not found and should be deleted. Alivebeing (talk) 09:57, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Seeing the elephant
I have never read of an attempt to relate the parable of the blind men and the elephant to the expression “seeing the elephant”. Both seem to have ancient roots and pertain to the acquisition of broader knowledge from a position of limited subjective experience. 65.128.179.126 (talk) 15:55, 22 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I added some "seeing elephants" to the "See also": Seeing the elephant, Elephant in the room, and Seeing pink elephants StrayBolt (talk) 18:17, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Ontologic reasoning

 * I'm inclined to agree with Dcouzin about whether this parable's relationship with "ontologic reasoning" should be mentioned in the first sentence of this article. Per the Manual of Style's guidance on the lead section, we should be avoiding "difficult-to-understand terminology and symbols" in the introduction, and "ontologic reasoning" is difficult to understand.  This parable shows up in many childrens' books all over the world, so it shouldn't be that hard for us to avoid links to "ontology" in the first paragraph, should it? -- RobLa (talk) 03:51, 10 September 2022 (UTC)


 * : That's a good point — it is fundamental enough to be in the article somewhere, but needn't be in the lede. I'll move it down and deemphasize it. Quercus solaris (talk) 03:56, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Short story 102.212.128.37 (talk) 11:42, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

who is the author 41.13.12.49 (talk) 17:18, 14 August 2023 (UTC)