Talk:Blue Jordan Records

Misleading use of sources
HighBeam is a pay service "research" site. Fizyx has therefore taken only what appears in the "free" portion of the article, which is about three to five lines at the beginning of the article. That's not indicative of the length of the article or depth of coverage of the topivc in it.

The usage of the "Living Room Series" is not really an indicator of notability. It clearly states in the source given that the series is two artists literally playing in someone's living room in the area.

Most importantly, I think a notable indie label in any genre should average more than two releases a year. MSJapan (talk) 16:18, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * (1)A "misleading use of sources" would be if I were to "make stuff up" and claim it to be in the "pay" part of the article. Clearly I'm not doing that so I don't see the problem.  (2)Perhaps you are new to the house concert concept--its becoming quite popular and the article doesn't claim it to be anything more than it is.  (3)I have no idea what the output of a label should be.  If you are counting the ones listed under "releases" I think that is only a partial list. -MrFizyx (talk) 17:04, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
 * FOR ANYONE ELSE CONCERNED: The "HighBeam" articles noted above are ones that were published in The Cincinnati Post. It seems that paper (like so many) has gone out of business recently and I've no idea where else to find these articles.  If anyone finds an alternative site (preferably with full free versions of these articles).  Please make a note and we will improve the sourcing of the article.  Thanks, -MrFizyx (talk) 17:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, I now have access to full copies of these and other articles [from a different source]--still not free to the general public. In a couple cases Blue Jordan is not the only topic covered in the article, but in many cases it is. I've included word counts for you, but it will take some time until I get around to processing any of this:
 * Blue Jordan gathering features old, new
 * The Cincinnati Post, 10 May 2007, 768 words


 * Celebrating the troubadour tradition
 * The Cincinnati Post, 17 August 2006, 973 words


 * Blue Jordan throws a party
 * The Cincinnati Post, 14 September 2000, 509 words


 * Diverse music invades Southgate House
 * The Cincinnati Post, 14 September 2000, 493 words


 * Playing his music
 * The Cincinnati Post, 8 December 2005, 223 words


 * Folk gets a new image
 * The Cincinnati Post, 11 October 2001, 761 words


 * FRIENDS RALLY TO KEEP KATIE ON RECOVERY ROAD
 * The Cincinnati Post, 6 December 2007, 967 words


 * FALL FOLK FESTIVAL SETS STAGE FOR MUSIC-FILLED WEEK IN CINCY
 * Dayton Daily News, 2 October 1998, 862 words


 * Fall folk festival '98 folkathon in the park
 * The Cincinnati Post, 1 October 1998, 840 words

Clearly most articles are more than a few lines. Wikipedia does not require a source to be free or easy to find. -MrFizyx (talk) 21:39, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

re:festivals & shows

 * Two one-off shows seven and nine years ago (respectively) only reported as upcoming events in the column of a local paper are really not notable fixtures. I've removed them, because it's trivial coverage, and misleads the reader into thinking these are big events (the summer "festival" was five hours on one day, and the Christmas show was five artists for three hours at a local place that had an $8 ticket price, and there's two years separation between them).  Even the multi-year festival is borderline, because the dates aren't even certain.  The stretching going on here is really pushing it, and the official site doesn't even have adequate information on releases, nor do any of the artists (on their own material!), so even the extent of the discography is questionable (I fact-tagged that).  This either needs to get better or get AfDed.  I've done my fair share of looking as well because I don't prod without reason, and there's just not enough to satisfy requirements clearly - the material is phrased such that it implies more than what the reality is. MSJapan (talk) 06:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm concerned that not all of your edits here are in good faith given you're intention to AfD the article. Please feel to add fact tags to unsourced info or to correct false statements, but do not remove statements of fact and the sources that support them.  Thanks -MrFizyx (talk) 13:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Another source
NOTE TO SELF: Add info from this when there is time: -MrFizyx (talk) 20:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Baker, Brian, "Music: Eleven Years of Folking Around", CityBeat, May 9, 2007
 * Wolfenberger admits the label is local and a co-op (meaning the artists do all their own booking, etc.), Pressley implies a prior decrease in activity. It's not going to help the notability question. MSJapan (talk) 07:01, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Nice quote
Here is a nice quote: according to a fairly well-known rock critic, Larry Nager (then of the Cincinnati Enquirer), the "Blue Jordan" sound is defined by a "sophisticated mix of folk, pop, classical and jazz textures." Presumably this was from a review of David Wolfenberger's The World of the Satisfyn' Place (2001). The problem is the only place I've been able to find a copy is here on the Blue Jordan web site where it is copied without publication date or details. This makes it impossible to verify and use as a source. It seems that news.cincinnati.com posts only a couple of months worth of archives--makes it hard to find a number of articles that are almost certianly out there. -MrFizyx (talk) 18:23, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The date of the article that quote is from is Nager, Larry, The Blue Jordan Sound, Wolfenberger's Songs, Cincinnati Musicians Set Standard, Cincinnati Enquirer, October 5, 2001 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.61.154.202 (talk • contribs)
 * Well, I'm confused. If the copy on the Blue Jordan page is accurate, then neither the title nor the article names the CD being reviewed--which certianly seems odd.  I may be able to look this up eventually, but haven't yet found a way to do that myself. -MrFizyx (talk) 14:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see that quote on the Blue Jordan page anyway. It must have been removed by someone. The article was indeed a review of the album World of the Satisfy'n Place by David Wolfenberger.
 * try this link, nowhere does it name World of the Satisfy'n Place. I find that odd.  -MrFizyx (talk) 15:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

That is odd. It matches the release date of the album but there is no reference to the title anywhere.

Artists pages being deleted & redlinks
A few of the wikipedia articles for artist's on this page (namely, Mike Helm, Liz Bowater, and Maurice Mattei) have recently, or will soon be deleted. I agree with this given that I don't think there are enough independent sources to write a decent article on them and that they very likely don't meet the criteria posted in WP:MUSIC. Since this is also likely the case for many of the other "red-linked" artists, I'm going to remove the links. When and if it can be shown that these artists meet the criteria others can feel free to write articles and add the links back. -MrFizyx (talk) 13:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Festival dates
MSJapan has complained (reasonably in this case) that I have not carefully detailed dates for some events. It is doubtless that the Blue Jordan Fall Music Festival ran 1998-2000. After that I don't know (I never called it the "quote unquote 'big' event"). After that it appears to have evolved into the smaller Spring Songs Festival which ran at least 2001-2005. I'll have to get back to sourcing this another time though. -MrFizyx (talk) 20:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * TO THE IP EDITOR AT 70.61.154.202: While I was aware of the Phantom Toll Booth article, I chose not to use this. It appears to me to be more of a blog than an on-line magazine.  Blogs are considered to be self-published sources and usually don't meet wikipedia's standards of verifiability (see WP:V).  It would be much better to describe the festivals with newspaper articles, and there seem to be plenty out there. -MrFizyx (talk) 14:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The Phantom Tollbooth is a long-standing webzine that pre-dates blogging and is a rich source of music reviews of this particular genre but I have no problem with removal of the reference. I placed it there as an independent non-Cincinnati based source documenting the regional "pull" of the Blue Jordan Music Festival to establish it's notability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.61.154.202 (talk • contribs)
 * Oh, lets keep it then. I couldn't get to the "about us" page on that site the other day, but now I see that it has a bit of history and possibly even an editor.  Please, do sign your post.  Just type four tildes ( ~ ) at the end and that will indicate who you are and give a timestamp.  It makes the discussion easier to follow. -MrFizyx (talk) 15:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

"Performance dates only"
Why is that trivial per WP:MUSIC for an artist, but assumed to be non-trivial for the label because it's not in WP:ORG? Over half the sources in here are nothing but performance dates. MSJapan (talk) 17:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. I'm not sure I get your point.  Do I think the use of "Get To It" guides in the article help make Blue Jordan Records a notable topic?  Of course not.  Do these sources verify facts in the article, yes.  Eventually I will work to increase the sources giving critical and/or descriptive commentary to events rather than merely schedule listings (which is what the "Get To It" guides are, not paid "ads" as you suggest in the AfD).  First, just because something is "trivial" in terms of showing notability it does not mean that it is unworthy of mention in an article.  Second, I don't think you're being honest when you say, "Over half the sources in here are nothing but performance dates."  Clearly most of the sources have more description than that. -MrFizyx (talk) 19:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * What I mean is that four of your citations are "Get To It" guides that you use as the main source of info for shows you cite in the article, and your implication is that these are major events (if they're notable enough to go into the article as standalones). However, the dates of the shows say nothing about the shows themselves, and if they're such a big deal, there should be a review, which I would consider to be much better to establish whether the shows were noteworthy than show dates alone. MSJapan (talk) 20:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, I see your point then. They are meant to serve as examples of the kinda things this group does.  We can probably give better examples with more commentary.  The Spring Song Fest was not a one-time-thing.  It is described as an annual event several places and seems to have run 2001-2005.  The "Singing His Songs" article (see top section) describes a Blue Jordan-organized John Lennon tribute by a dozen or so songwriters from Cincinnati and surrounding areas.  It may be some time until I can get around to covering the details. -MrFizyx (talk) 21:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

External links modified
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