Talk:Blues/Archive 1

Verse
I couldn't find a good public domain blues verse to use as an example, so I had to invent one. Its rubbish, so if someone with either wants to replace it, please do -- Gareth Owen Oh, and I'm really weak on modern stuff...
 * a better source
 * a better grasp of the "Fair Use" doctrine
 * more talent

I had to change your lyrics, Gareth. Hope you are not offended. Thanks for improving the Clapton stuff. I though you were weak on modern stuff (or maybe I am getting really old). == Ian.

Those ones weren't mine ...' -- GWO


 * I changed 'em again recently, put in evocative Leadbelly lyrics from "Good Morning Blues". Ortolan88

Origin of the term blues
Perhaps it's an idea to add a part about the origin of the term blues? I found this on a webpage: "The first recorded use of the word was in 1741 in a letter from David Garrick in which he said that he "wasn't feeling well, in fact I have ye blues", presumably indicative of melancholic blase (itself a French cognate with English 'blow'), and not just discomfort. The word 'blue' had been around since Chaucer's time (c1385) meaning sad, but it was Garrick who changed it from an adjective to a noun." Another version I heard was that 'having the blues' referred to having 'lead-disease', aka lead-poisoning (more common among plumbers working with lead), symptoms of which was feeling depressed/lethargic.--Egregius 17:14, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I disagree. Many of the great Bluesmen, who've expounded plenty on what it means "to have the blues" (in the context related to the music), have been very precise to the term's meaning. Son House, for example, saying, to paraphrase, "Kid's today write songs called "the such n' such blues", but it's not. There's only one kinds o' Blues, and that consists of love between a man and woman." Then we have Howlin' Wolf talking "the conditions" that cause the Blues. The Blues to the old masters was a philosophical exponent of their existences that relates very little, if at all, to anything that Garrick was referring. The term may have been coined first in the 1700s but is so far removed from what the musical idea of Blues is that it seems to be a completely different idea altogether. --Bentonia School 14:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Gershwin, anyone? I've got no time, but someone might want to do a brief paragraph on George Gershwin after the one on W.C. Handy.

Also, deleted that phrase that went something like "poverty and sexuality from a distinctly black point of view." On the heels of the fairly lurid description of "Down in the Alley," I didn't like the way that read. Preceding paragraphs, particularly as edited, already made it very clear that the subject matter of the blues comes from the material conditions of the time of being poor, black and rural. Also edited the rest of that paragraph because the tone was too informal and subjective. And, of course, I had to mention Mother Africa at the beginning. You can't treat African-American culture like it has no African roots. I mean that's the whole point of "African-American" in the first place. deeceevoice

Challenge: Do we have a category "Unfeatured article"?
What's here is good, but overall this is a pretty weak article. To quote from above "three groups, Country Blues, Chicago Blues, and Modern Blues" pretty much outlines its limitations. Those three are pretty much all that the younger musical fan of today knows, but there's so much missing. The whole "swing" tradition of Kansas City blues, typified by Count Basie and Jay McShann and blues shouters like Big Joe Turner and Jimmy Witherspoon, country music (I just added a sentence about Jimmie Rodgers but there's so much more), the boogie woogie craze of the 40s (also a blues form), the whole notion of instrumental blues (the link to blues scale is a sick joke and I don't see anything here about I-IV-V chord progressions or flatted notes), etc. I will be adding stuff here and there, but I don't have the musical chops to do justice to the musical side. That is, I'm no better than the other contributors to the article as it stands. It needs much much more. That crank, Ortolan88 02:08, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Hey there, crank. I think what you're looking for is Peer review.  That other crank, GWO

I know samples of music would be hard (if not impossible to find) but I was looking for examples of different types of blues. Specifically Walking Blues, Kansas City Blues, Chicago Blues, Delta Blues, and Dirty Blues. Is there any way these could be added? --Tucson Indigo 05:51, 14 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Agree it's still weak. I look forward to a lot more development. Some things I don't feel competent to tidy up - Need explanation for us musically-challenged of what "A A1 B form" is. I suspect the following para of the article should be linked to that phrase. And 'across the tracks and made it respectable, even "high-toned"' is too colloquial for us non-Americans. Nurg 05:40, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Robert Johnson is a major player in the history of the blues, however, one must consider where RJ got his influence from. Johnson was originally a harmoinca player, and was influened by Son House and Charley Patton. The latter was the definitive blues musician. Playing guitar since the early 1900's, in juke joint's across Southern America, even throughout the great flood of 1927 of the Mississippi River, he avoided desolation and, altogether hard labour work by playing live. He was part of a trio called the Mississippi Shieks, who travelled the Southern States playing for money. Charley Patton set himself apart from the rest by being, not only a great artist, by an entertainer. Jimmy Hendrix is generally credited with creating the crazy on-stage antics like playing the guitar with objects like lighters etc, by in the 20's, Patton would cajole audiences by playing the guitar with a knife, and an almost incessant need of a strong combination of strong whiskey and cocaine, and a passionate love of women. He would also take the guitar and play between his legs, a stance repeated by numerous guitarists since, claiming to be the creator, when in fact they weren't. A pioneer and a poet in his own right, social commentary songs like High Water Everywhere (about the '27 floods), Mississippi Bowevil Blues (about the 'superbugs' that ate the cotton buds in fields, which were the main source of money for Southern America in the 20's, and deprived the workers), songs about life such as the unsurmountable A Spoonful Blues (cocaine, whiskey & women), High Sheriff Blues (Parchman Farm)and Down The Dirt Road (A generic blues arrangement, although never fully proved, arranged originally arranged by Patton) were expertly mixed with deep, heartfelt songs like Poor Me, Screamin ` And Hollerin` The Blues and Prayer Of Death (Parts 1 & 2) made him the quitenssial bluesman. Furthermore, the gift he had, he passed on to the now legendary Robert Johnson. As a footnote, in an interview with Bob Dylan (a lifelong blues enthusiast), he said that if he wanted to play music for fun, all he would play were Chaley Patton songs. Charley Patton remains one of the many unknown and forgotten greats, such as Big Bill Broonzy, Blind Willy McTell, Blind Blake and Sonny Boy Williamson. (Please feel free to add links etc. I know lots about blues but not much about Wikipedia rules!)

Taj Mahal
I think this needs a diambiguation page, but I haven't taken the time to learn how to do it. Currently, the only Taj Mahal page is about the landmark in Agra. Would someone more familiar with editing like to do it? Tx. deeceevoice 19:46, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Timc. :-) deeceevoice 05:36, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A scholar comments on "Muslim Roots of the Blues"
PLEASE NOTE - Editors of Wikipedia - I'm aware that I'm quoting from copyrighted sources. I've written to the Chronicle, but they have no interest in scholarly debunking of a good story (and it IS a good story; it's just WRONG, WRONG, WRONG). So when I found it linked to your page on the blues, I felt I had to do SOMETHING. It is just terribly bad scholarship, and deliberately so. I hate to see such a good site in hock to blatantly bad work. I can't very well debunk it without referring to it. If there's a better way to do this, please let me know. I'm on your side. Joseph Byrd josephbyrd@cox.net

Muslim Roots of the Blues, Jonathan Curiel, San Francisco Chronicle, Aug 15, 2004


 * Are you arguing that the Wikipedia article blues is inaccurate? Or just The Chronicle?  Our article doesn't mention Islam.  If you want to debunk The Chronicle, this is not an appropriate place to do so -- I'm sorry that they haven't been responsive, but they won't be any more responsive if you post here.  I have removed the copy of the Chronicle article, as it is copyrighted and can't remain here. I do understand your concern about their readers being misinformed; the best thing you could do is improve our article so that it has the real story of the blues, so that people travelling from the Chronicle to our article will be better informed. Tuf-Kat

Actually, I excised an earlier addition to this article (of which the link to the article was a part) which stated definitively that call and response in the blues was the result of Islam -- the muezzin's call to prayer. I skimmed the article link, and, to me, it simply sounded specious. The muezzin's call to prayer is a solitary thing, and I'm unaware of a call and response tradition in Islam related to it. Besides, call and response is a feature of many West African cultures, some Muslim, some not -- which leads me to believe it is indigenous to West African cultures and not the result of Islamic influence. I left the link as a concession of sorts, because I don't pretend to be an authority on the subject. But if Joseph Byrd has scholarship that refutes the Islamic influence theory, fine. He's free to offer it -- and delete the link altogether. deeceevoice 15:08, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Just read/skimmed the Chronicle link more closely, and the theory is an interesting one -- no doubt. But I'm still skeptical. The use of blue notes and note bending as a vocal technique is common throughout non Muslim Africa, as well. Guess I'd have to hear the piece of music referred to in the article -- but right now, I'd have to say I don't see a definitive link. But, again, I'm hardly an expert. deeceevoice 15:18, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Call and response (or something akin to it) is quite common in non-African folk musics as well, FWIW --- GWO


 * IIRC, the banjo is said to be descended from an instrument introduced to West Africa by Muslims. Perhaps the kora, maybe not. Tuf-Kat 17:27, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

(Joseph Byrd replies) I thank everyone for reassuring me that the "Muslim roots" theory hasn't been an easy sell at Wikipedia. I keep coming across links to the Chronicle article in otherwise well-intended sites, and it's maddening if you know how error-packed it is. And, of course, it was reprinted in the New York Times Magazine, so innocents all over will assume it to be so.

FYI, my original critique, which neither the author nor the Chronicle responded to, had about a dozen citations that were golden. The claim that the oud is the ancestor of the guitar, for instance, and that business about black churches facing East because of Mecca, and the curious notion that slave names could be related to the Woloff language (which implies that slaves got to choose their own names!). I've expanded the problem of contemporary writers attempting to link Islam with African American music in a short article in the Google Group on American Popular Music. Interested persons are invited to discuss this and other topics there.

Regarding the above, the speculation that banjo has West African roots seems pretty well founded. The kora is generically a harp, which Grove's Dictionary treats as a different phenomenon because its taxonomy is different from the lute family, but pragmatic slaves would not have been interested in such categories.


 * It's fairly widely known and accepted, I think, that the banjo is African in origin. Even the word is Kimbundu in origin.  Sterling Stuckey, in Slave Culture writes about the prevalence of fiddle players (remember the character "Fiddler" in Haley's Roots?) and banjo (kora) players among the African slave population and how they brought these musical skills with them to the Americas.  And, GWO, even though call and response is not exclusive to African cultures, given the context, it is clear that call and response in the blues is African in origin.  (Let's try to stay on point, folks.) deeceevoice 02:10, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Okay. I've read the link, and it doesn't really specifically address the Islamic link in any substantive manner. It's just a general ragging on certain, apparently, contested links between African and African-American culture and accusing certain writers/commentators of "black racism" because of their views -- a charge which is ... well, I'll just say silly, off-the-wall and thoroughly obnoxious. The author even makes a passing reference to blackface minstrelsy -- which I find a bit curious. The article seems to be a general rant on several topics against certain writers in generaal -- which I think weakens its impact. (Byrd, I invite you to check out blackface, which I rewrote extensively. Maybe you can talk trash about that one, too. :-p  As for this issue of Islamic influence, I'm still not convinced one way or the other, and your, IMO, scattershot comments in the article, haven't made a difference.  deeceevoice 02:32, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I think the article, if, as claimed by Joseph Byrd, it is false, plays off of its intended audiences lack of knowledge about African and Islamic cultures, and specifically of the lack of knowledge of the geographic and cultural overlap. Unfortunately, Joseph, I find your comments unconvincing. To claim that a musical trait isn't Islamic simply because it is a general African cultural or musical trait is too facile, especially when the most effective argument against the articles claims is to find non-Muslim sources for the traits found in the blues. One would need to prove, through sources, a non-Islamic African influence. I must admit I also cannot provide primary or secondary sources in support of any influences on the blues. Unfortunately, I see no end to this dispute until such sources are provided. Hyacinth 01:43, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

(Joseph Byrd replies) Deeceevoice and Hyacinth make legitimate points. I was extracting rather than making the full case against the Chronicle article, so I'm redirecting readers to it, which I've now expanded to my original response. And while I agree that, as Tuf-Cat says, "If you want to debunk The Chronicle, this is not an appropriate place to do so," I do think that any piece of work so widely disseminated that it appears in 178 places on Google is approaching the status of a legend, and needs to be addressed. Otherwise, visitors in search of enlightenment will probably assume Wikipedia is simply behind the times.

In any event, the *source* of the blues in the cultures of West Africa is hardly in question, and I think the basic article does a decent job. There are nuances to be pointed out: the evolution of the 12-bar form is not immediate, nor was the guitar the sole accompaniment (there are recorded versions that have no such form, and/or use instruments like drum or flute); there is undeserved credit given to W.C. Handy, who as late as 1912 allegedly told Jelly Roll Morton that the blues was essentially sharecroppers' music, inappropriate for his disciplined, uniformed brass band; Ma Rainey, whose first-decade Rabbitsfoot Minstrel Show popularized the form all across the South (and paved the way for the sale of records by Charlie Patton and Blind Lemon Jefferson), isn't even mentioned, possibly because she didn't herself record until 20 years past her prime. (Jelly Roll himself is still woefully ignored; it is likely that he himself spread the blues from the South to the West Coast, and possibly Kansas City, St. Louis, New York, and Chicago, all places he traveled and played long before the form was nationally known.)

We still haven't escaped the hegemony of the white folklorists for whom the blues was/is a spontaneous rural (dare we add "primitive"?) form. If so, why do all the photographs of early stars show them wearing suits and ties? They were professional musicians, performing for money. Robert Johnson, with his shirt-sleeves and dangling cigarette, played these scholars for fools, and they rewarded him by making him a legend, while his highly professional (no less talented) contemporary, Leroy Carr, was ignored.

Deeceevoice has kindly invited me to meet him with pistols at dawn regarding his blackface minstrelsy article. I haven't yet read it, but I know something about the subject (I directed the reconstruction of minstrel music on the 6-sided LP _Popular Music in Jacksonian America_ (Musical Heritage, 1984), and I may take him up on it. :-p --[[User:68.225.0.99|68.225.0.99 02:58, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)]]


 * Byrd, first of all, I'm a "SHE" -- not a "he." And while I'd welcome your comments on blackface, an article more immediately in dire need of your attention, based on your stated expertise, is another one I came upon recently, and that is the article on minstrel show.  It needs help.  (Though whether your perspective is one I should be inviting, time will tell. :-p)


 * I'm pleased that you acknowledge the West African roots of the blues. When I first came upon this article, West Africa wasn't even mentioned; at least one writer or two attempted to excise the Africa reference altogether.  Same with jazz.  (Disconcerting.)  The drum and flute business is also quite true.  If anyone saw Scorcese's series on the blues, there is a highly interesting segment that draws a direct connection between that very early Mississippi blues form and indigenous African music.


 * I have to admit I haven't read the article in its entirety, and I'm sure there are things that could be improved upon; nothing is perfect. There is a general tendency, I think, to overlook women's contributions in blues and jazz (as in many other things).  But that's the beauty of Wikipedia.  Please feel free to add whatever information you deem lacking/appropriate.  deeceevoice 19:54, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Peter van der Merwe (1989) describes African and British origins of the (American) Blues, including "Arabic influences" from North African (p.134). Hyacinth 20:42, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Deeceevoice, forgive my incorrect presumption of your gender. As you say, women are overlooked. IMO Bessie Smith did as much for jazz as Louis Armstrong or Bix Beiderbecke, but she's not only female, but a singer, so she's a footnote. And Ma Rainey was her mentor, so she ought to be regarded as a founder, as I do Jelly Roll. And speaking of Jelly Roll, one of the uncomfortable things about the man was his prickly racism, doubtless one reason why he wasn't more accepted by black musicians of his time (although they all acknowledge his importance, if grudgingly).

I don't think it's possible to address the minstrel show without going into the whole economic/political question. The shows were, first of all, directed to a decidedly lower-class male demographic, which not coincidentally, was the same populist/Democrat demographic that feared blacks as a threat to their jobs. (The Republican Party, representing the industrialists, used the emancipation issue shamelessly.) Minstrel shows, as the article says, were a way of saying, "if you let those ignorant savages loose, they'll rob you, kill you, rape your women," only saying it in a comic style, using the Anglo-Irish musical traditional music as a medium. The early minstrel tunes ("Jim Crow," "Zip Coon," "Whar Did You Kum From?") have nothing to do with anything remotely African American, except maybe the dialect of free dockworkers and boatmen on the Ohio River.

But Dan Emmett was a genius, and yes, I think he heard something no white musician had heard before - syncopation. His fiddle tunes are masterful (complex and inpeccably notated), and in "Old Dan Tucker" he discovered the snappy short-long-short syncopation ("Git out de way...")that can be followed right down to ragtime. It doesn't exist in the fiddle reels and jigs before him, and I think it a fair assumption that he took it from overheard slave songs (as in "I looked over Jordan, and...," in the last three syllables). And if you need a direct connection between the minstrels and the Democrats, consider that Dixie was written and performed in a Bowery theater in 1860, on the eve of war, in the center of the "Copperhead" stronghold of Manhattan.

Unlike the benign familiar lyrics, the original included a brilliant piece of pro-slavery propaganda:

"To Canada old John was bound, All by de railroad underground, Look away, look away, look away, Dixie's Land.

He's got no clothes, he's got no tin, He wishes he was back agin, Look away, look away, look away, Dixie's Land").

In other words, blacks are better off as slaves, where they'll be take care of.

Ironically, after the War, minstrelsy was to become a ladder by which blacks could climb to reach the Parnasus of show biz. Many did, and there were troups of blacks that competed successfully after the War. James Bland (Dem Golden Slippers, Carry Me Back To Old Virginny, Kentucky Babe) was a successful songwriter/performer. And of course, the greatest minstrel of them all was Bert Williams.

Unlike what the article says, minstrel shows continued well into the 1920's, mostly in the South. When the form seemed to be drying up, the white musicians abandoned blackface, and reinvented themselves as "cowboys," the popular new movie formula. Who were they? Well, Gene Autry (and I believe Eddy Arnold) was a former blackface performer, as was Bob Wills (which you can kind of infer from his jokey talking around the music, "Aw-haw! Now take it away, Leon." Songs like "Anytime" and "Lovesick Blues," Hank Williams' first hit, were originally written as comic vehicles for minstrels like Emmett Miller.  Needless to say, Emmett Miller is not in the Country Music Hall of Fame.

And I've said nothing about Stephen Foster, who changed the entire face of minstrelsy by combining it with sentimental song. Oy. Anyway, that's a start, and I will try to work on the page, but probably not this month. --Josephbyrd 20:55, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * "But Dan Emmett was a genius, and yes, I think he heard something no white musician had heard before - syncopation."

What? Do you have any idea how ridiculous and ignorant that statement is? Do you know ANYTHING about music? Good god. --Kelt65 (talk) 02:58, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Byrd, why on earth are you commenting on minstrelsy here? I'm not going to do it, but I suggest you move your comments to the discussion for minstrel show.  There's reference to some of what you state here in blackface, which addresses that particular aspect of minstrelsy, its iconography and impact on the ways blacks have been depicted ever since.  As I said, by all means, take a look at blackface when you have an opportunity, but I think your comments are best situated in minstrel show for the moment.  The article really needs help.  I simply haven't had the patience to tackle it after rewriting blackface.  (Feel free to move my comments here to the minstrel show along with yours when you decide to move this discussion to a more appropriate venue).  deeceevoice 21:20, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Deeceevoice, I'm making a point (obviously not very effectively). The Establishment scholars have carved American music up into Blues, Ragtime, Jazz, Country, et al. Even Wikipedia has different categories for Blackface and Minstrel Show. Boxes are useful tools for getting started understanding the music, but they don't reflect reality. Those boxes didn't exist at the time, except in a very general way, and they oozed into each other. W.C. Handy was a cornet soloist in a turn-of-the-Century minstrel show, and Ma Rainey ran one for two decades or more. Ma Rainey was also the biggest popularizer of the blues, but she also sang a lot of other music, including show tunes. The big minstrel shows of the late 19th Century were really more like variety shows, and finally vaudeville came along and absorbed them; but every vaudeville show would have a banjo act in blackface, and often a 2-or 3-man blackface comedy act. Blackface became a kind of generic "clown" bit, and when Al Jolson make his big step up, he did it as a comic actor in blackface. Jimmie Rodgers - who is in the Country Music Hall of Fame, became famous doing his "singing brakeman" act, singing "blue yodels," and one of his first recordings featured Louis Armstrong. Incidentally, the blue yodels aren't blues.

Ragtime as a vocal medium evolved as "coon songs," which were musically a breath of fresh air in the dull waltz ballad wasteland of the 1890's, and they gradually outgrew their blackface nature to become pop songs like "You Made Me Love You," which Jolson performed in blackface despite there being no conceivable dramatic reason to do so. The sentimental "plantation melodies" of the 1910's and 20's - "Rockabye Your Baby," "I'm Coming Virginia," etc. - were among the jazz recordings of Bix and Tram; meanwhile the early Ellington band, playing at the Cotton Club, created its own fantasies of aboriginal life with titles like "Maori," "Creole Rhapsody," and "Jungle Jamboree." Like Paul Whiteman and many others, Ellington also recorded "Wang Wang Blues," which typically wasn't a blues.

"Jazz" itself is a word that was in use long before anything I'd call jazz actually existed. Jelly Roll Morton says that what the "spasm bands" in New Orleans were playing was merely hot (i.e., fast) ragtime, and if you listen carefully to the Original Dixieland Jazz Band, you'll hear that they aren't really "swinging" the notes, because they are playing so frantically that there's no difference between straight eighth-notes and swung ones. All those terms were marketing devices, and I do not mean to use that term in deprecation. You have to market your music if you want people to pay attention. When Paul Whiteman called himself the King of Jazz, he sent a message to white America that this was not some kind of "low" primitive music, but music appropriate to the stage and concert hall. So when Ellington and Armstrong came along a couple of years later, there was actually a market for their music.

Life is like that, and right now I think it would take several days to put together something that would do justice to the minstrel show. If you would care to do so, please proceed, but as someone wisely said, "I simply haven't had the patience to tackle it." --Josephbyrd 00:36, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC) --68.225.0.99 00:34, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I haven't read your lengthy missive; I'm crunching a deadline. Yes, I'm well aware that African American musical expression is a continuum, with the various, related styles interacting with one another and often coexisting together in the same work.  And, yes, the breaks are artificial.  But, hey, that's the way it is.  Realistically, Wikipedia can't have articles that go on ad infinitum.  Discipline!  The separate articles for blackface and minstrel show are actually fine with me, though. A bit awkward, but no more so than with any other related topic.  I referred you to minstrel show only because you said it was an area of expertise for you.  Deal with it or don't.  You say you haven't time, but a lot of what you've written here -- in an "unrelated" space -- could have/should have been inserted there.  IMO, it's wasted here. deeceevoice 01:52, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Kansas city
WHich Kansas city is this? In Kansas or Missouri? Jaberwocky6669 19:19, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Kansas City blues was/is mostly played in the Westport district of Kansas City, MO, down near the river, but then Kansas City, KS is right next door, so there you are. --Blainster 08:26, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Work songs
I added to the gandy dancer article tonight, mostly what I learned from PBS a while back but backed up with some Google. One of the links I found said that gandy dancers invented the basis of blues; while I didn't go so far in my article, I'd be interested to hear from someone who's more music-literate. Perhaps a backlink from the history section of this artilce might also be in order.--Joel 07:53, 28 May 2005 (UTC)


 * While the blues idiom certainly has its origins in African-American/African musical and vocal expression, there is no singular genre that fairly or correctly be cited as the basis of it. Gandy dancers' shouts, cadences and songs were just one, small segment of the kinds of work shouts, rhymes, rhythms, songs and utterances that are part of the blues continuum -- and can't be singled out from field shouts, praisesongs, etc.  That's just too facile and doesn't begin to represent the variety of A-A vocal/musical/rhythmic expression that laid the foundation for the blues.  After all, what were African-Americans singing, saying, moving to, shoutin' about before the railroads? :p deeceevoice 12:54, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

revamp
I did some major reorganizing and added quite a bit, including some inline citations and references. Any comments? Tuf-Kat 06:02, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Orign of the term "Blues"
Anyone have any idea where the actual term "the Blues" or "Blues" came from? Fergananim 20:52, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I could have sworn one of my books mentions it, but I can't find the reference right now. IIRC, the meaning of "sadness" came first, and the genre was named after it because that's what blues songs were about. Tuf-Kat 07:03, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * This site agrees, but isn't sourced at all. Tuf-Kat 07:04, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

I had to ask, because in our langauge (Gailge/Irish) the term we use to describe black people is Fer Gorm. Fer or Fir means man, Gorm means blue. This is a highly specific term, and to the best of my knowledge has always refered strictly to black Africans. We do have words for the colour black, but used in the sence of black hair.

Nearly ten years ago I met an American who told me an anaecdote concerning a couple of Irish men working in New Orleans in the 1850's (or at least the latter 1800's). The story itself is irrelevant here, but what I found interesting what that when the Irish men had finished worke, they said "Let's go and hear the blues/let's go down to the blues" (words to that effect). The point is, they were not refering to the music; they were refering to the people; black Africans.

Also, we still use the term gorm as part of phrases in Irish to express sadness, or, to give it a literal translation, having the blues.

I need not remind anyone here of the deep impact Irish indentured servants and slaves had on the West Indies during the 17th centuary. So much so that as recently as the 1980's Irish was still the first language of a number of communitys down there, despite the black skin colour.

Lastly, you may want to check this out: "1.It seems that a part of the fleet, on leaving Morocco, went off to Ireland, taking with them some Moorish prisoners. These Moors are mentioned in early Irish texts as fir gorm (blue men), though the ON. blámenn can be exactly translated dark men."http://www.northvegr.org/lore/history_viking/046.php

Looking forward to hearing from you. Slan! Fergananim 20:06, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

The concept of Blues being "sad" is all wrong. It was the hollers that were sad. The juke music was the Blues. No one went to the jukes to get sad, they went to get uplifted. That is, the music itself of Blues wasn't always sorrowful (listen to "Preachin' Blues (Up Jumped the Devil)", Robert Johnson or "Diddie Wah Diddie", Blind Blake), though hollers most often were. The lyrics themselves may have been sad but this wasn't a constant, nor a necessity. Many lyricless Blues songs were sad as any with lyrics ("Dark Was the Night, Cold Was the Ground", Blind Willie Johnson), or lyrically joyous or full of hope with meloncholy music ("Sitting On Top of the World", Mississippi Sheiks). The idea of the Blues being sad is simply a mistake of those who are unfamiliar with the depth and history of the music. It shouldn't be represented as such here. --Bentonia School 15:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The term "the Blues" comes from a slang term for being sad or upset, "the blue devils." Any basic blues history should have a reference to this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.94.32.49 (talk) 18:48, 30 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Like the one in the lead?-- SabreBD  (talk)  18:56, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Vaughan and Page
(I'm not sure where to add this comment, as this Discussion page is not a collection of random comments but rather seems to have an organized layout. I'm also not sure if what I'm about to say has been discussed already, and I beg your pardon if it has.) I fail to see how any article on the blues which aims to approach comprehensiveness can omit the names Stevie Ray Vaughan and Jimmy Page. That's all.
 * I moved your comment to the bottom of this page. The normal method would be to just add whatever you want to the bottom, and put a section title (like I did) above it.  And FTR, Vaughan is mentioned by name.  Page is not and neither is Led Zeppelin.  You can be bold and edit the article, if you like, in order to improve it. Tuf-Kat 06:53, September 11, 2005 (UTC)

Blues
Well, hats-off and kudos to-first- the writers and then after that-the editors and the copy-editors; excellent job done on this article. I think it can be, now, removed from the Needs to be copyedit section and loaded into the main article archieve.

The Blues are really good i love them!!!! By Emily Harrison 8t

Musical Style
Well, the musical style has been improved from tonic to the forms that makes it easy to understand for people who have not the musical education to refer to terms like tonic and all. But still with blues musical style I have found that the last bar on the twelve bar progression ends superbly with V7 raher than just the V. Also most of the times the entire riff is repeated with some embellishments that begins with the tonic(I) and ends with the V, like they do it in the jazz blues. Isn't that somehwat of a standard form of ending the tweleve bar progression. I might be wrong but more and more blues these days end like that.

So that would be,

Also some of the players use the seventh chord through out the song rather than using it when the bar ends. Merishi 11:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * We write just below this table "Note that much of the time, every chord is played in the dominant seventh (7th) form". I think being more precise would be misleading.  Blues is not that constraints.  From my point of view the 2nd, 4-6th, 9-10th and 12th are usually played in 7th.  But that's a kind of freedom to the musician.  What's the trend today does not really matter?  This article is not about the blues today but about the blues in general.  Vb 12:32, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Should we include a bit in here about chord substitution, because often a player will substitute a major chord for a Dom7th chord, I can add it in if you like. Also with the Jazz blues I think (I may be wrong) but sometimes 9th and 13th chords are added in as well, but this may confuse people, also should we add a section on minor blues?--Mikeoman 12:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

"There are few characteristics common to all blues"
Sentences of the type "There are few characteristics common to all y", when y is a clearly located cultural expression, seem very naïve and/or ethnocentric (actually, ycentric). Wouldn't someone fix that? Velho 04:55, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, it is a genre. If there weren't any common characteristics, then they couldn't be grouped together; could they? In that sense, the sentence isn't unsupported or false: it's simply redundant. b0at 04:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

You mention that the shuffle is swung 8th notes. Swung is triplet groupings with the 2nd note in the 3 being a rest. So if triplets are tri-p-let then rest on the 'p'. Thats a swung feel. A shuffle is a shuffle and swung is swung. It is a common misconception that a shuffle is swung. That sounds like a riddle. Cheers for the article its really helped me with some research.

Influence
Can we agree to an (effective) freeze on genres influenced by the blues? I think it's probably fairly safe to assume that there are a great number of genres (probably any where artists were exposed to blues) that have been influenced by blues, and it's not very useful to list more than we already have, unless there's some very notable reason to do so. FireWorks 10:14, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * well what im gonna do is amalgamate some of them that overlap, like big band and jazz. if further ones come up ill see if i can amalgamate them too--Urthogie 15:44, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Could use some help
This guy has won grammys and has written a lot of stuff on the blues, and makes his own blues music. Please help at his article: Elijah Wald.--Urthogie 19:11, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Jack White
Jack White is a blues-influenced rock musician, not a central figure in contemporary blues. The paragraph someone inserted about him is unsourced, unverified, contradicts the supposedly verified information in the White Stripes article, violates NPOV, and greatly overstates his importance/influence on the field. (His work with Loretta Lynn has probably more influential with regard to country music, but nobody would list him as a prominent country musician.) Even worse, the Jack White text makes even worse the article's extrememly unhappy tendency to overstate the importance of white pop/rock musicians and deprecate the significance of relatively contemporary African-American musicians. (I find it odd that an article on African-American music appears to sourced mostly if not entirely from white writers, ignoring such seminal texts as Baraka's Blues People, but that's not quite directly pertinent). A paragraph on Jack White when Bo Diddley, Skip James, Son House and Charley Patton are only name-dropped, and Sippie Wallace, Lightin' Hopkins, Otis Spann, Hound Dog Taylor, and even Dinah Washington are ignored, makes my original comment seem rather charitable. To adequately "balance" the overstated paragraph on White by adding material on other artists would require expanding the article to the length of a small book. Monicasdude 14:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Removing text with only the claim that it overbalanced other material (apparently on racialist grounds) was inevitably going to be reverted. If you'd said that it was unsourced, and that it contadicted other, sourced material, then I'd not have reverted.
 * The general point is that Wikipedia is unbalanced in a host of ways; there's far more stuff on ephemeral popular Western sub-cultures, for example, than on lasting, mainstream Western culture, far more on current sports stars and computer games than on the art and literature of the many and varied human cultures. I've often felt that removing the dross would be a great move, but it's not possible; the better (and only workable) approach is to increase the quality material.  (In this case, the material removed didn't even seem to be dross, merely more peripheral than you liked.)
 * And there should be enough material for a small – in fact a large – book, but split up into more sub articles. If I weren't involved in increasing the material on jazz and philosophy, I'd be more active on the blues &mdash; maybe some time I'll be able to start helping out more. --Mel Etitis  ( Μελ Ετητης ) 16:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC

I do not think his importance to the survival and progression of modern blues music is overstated. He openly promotes the old blues artists and claims them as his major influences. He does more for the blues than books that nobody has heard of. His music and musical style are a sort of vessel that helps translate the blues for a modern audience. I'm not saying that he is any "better" than the other artists, that his music is a contemporary form of the blues, or that he should be focused on more than the older artists. Jack White is undoubtedly a very popular musician who has a voice that is more prominent than almost anybody you have mentioned. His advocacy for the blues does more than any book that you can find at only large, diverse libraries. For the modern consumer who is unaware of the blues, Jack White is probably the best way in to the wonderfully rich music that predated him. 76.226.157.205 (talk) 03:36, 13 March 2010 (UTC)Dan Ackerman

Add Smithsonian link?
Hello! I am a writer for the Smithsonian's Center for Education, which publishes Smithsonian in Your Classroom, a magazine for teachers. Our most recent issue is titled "The Music in Poetry." The lesson plans introduce students to the rhythms of poetry--to the idea that poetry has a rhythm--by focusing, in part, on the blues stanzas of Langston Hughes. An online version of the issue is available for free download at this address:

http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/educators/resource_library/publications_siyc_spring2006.html

Accessible from this page is a free audio site that Smithsonian Folkway Recordings set up to accompany the issue. Students can listen to musical blues from the Delta, Chicago, New York, and Kansas City. They can follow the history of the form as it makes its way into early New Orleans jazz and as it becomes, decades later, rock and roll.

If you think that the Wikipedia audience would find this issue valuable, I wish to invite you to include a link to our site. We would be most grateful.

Thank you so much for your attention.


 * The page looks interesting, but unfortunately we can't use links to commercial websites, and as this advertises a publication for sale, it's not eligible for inclusion in the article. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 21:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

From Smithsonian
Hi, Mel. So sorry. I put up the wrong URL. It should be:

http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/educators/lesson_plans/music_in_poetry/index.html

This resource is completely free for any teachers. They need only download the PDF.

Thanks! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 160.111.254.11 (talk • contribs) 22:58, 21 April 2006.


 * Ah, that's different; great, I'll add it now. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 09:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Contemporary black audience for blues
I was surprised to find absolutely no mention, in the post-1980 section of this otherwise excellent entry, of so-called "soul blues," which is really just another word for blues produced by and (largely) consumed by a contemporary black audience. I know from many conversations with blues fans outside Mississippi--and I'm a Mississippi resident--that many white blues fans and even blues journalists and academics and African American blues performers such as Guy Davis (i.e., people who ought to know better) claim that there ISN'T any contemporary black audience for the blues. This is untrue. I drive frequently through Memphis and Jackson, MS; it's easy to find black DJs spinning the blues--or what they call the blues, which may not always take the form of 12-bar shuffles (it's often funkier than that), but certainly includes "Down Home Blues," "The Thrill is Gone," a whole series of double-entendre party blues by Bobby Rush, and some hellacious singing by Bettye Lavette. Living Blues has, with their current issue, begun a regular feature on soul blues, including radio airplay charts. In any case, I've tried to remedy this lack with my addition. User:KudzuRunner 13:46 UTC, July 25, 2006

I do realize that the term "soul blues" shows up in a later section, entitled "Musical Impact," as follows:


 * "In the fifties, soul music, best represented by Sam Cooke, Ray Charles and James Brown, overtook many elements of both Gospel and blues music. In the sixties and seventies these genres merged in what is called soul blues music."

This is woefully insufficient, I'm afraid. One would not know from this passing reference, for example, that the terms "blues," "party blues," and "soul blues" are used interchangeably in the year 2006 by black DJs in Memphis and Mississippi to refer to precisely the same sort of music. Sometimes 12-bar changes are evident; often slightly retro-sounding synthesizers are a part of the mix; frequently the rhythmic backing is aggressive; sometimes there's a B. B. King-style lead guitar; occasionally (i.e., Bobby Rush) some down-home harmonica finds its way in. Acoustic guitar and THAT sort of old-fashioned down home sound is strictly out. The songs fall almost exclusively into two categories: 1) songs about no-good member of the opposite sex, tinged with palpable angst; and 2) sexual brags or come ons, often with double-entendres of a rawness that would have shocked Larry Neal (i.e., Marvin Sease's "Women Would Rather Be Licked" and various permutations of "Sit Down on It"). If Elijah Wald is correct (in ESCAPING THE DELTA) that blues is, at bottom, whatever form of pop music the black audience claims it is, then soul blues is simply blues, plain and simple, and the artists, songs, and sounds of contemporary soul blues should form an intrinsic part of any understanding of what the blues currently are that presumes to adequacy. User:KudzuRunner 14:15 UTC, July 25, 2006

--really, the Southern Soul type blues has more of a right to claim the title "blues" than other contemporary forms of blues tht appeal mainly to a white audience. So I've placed it in front of the part about the more traditional blues in the since the 1980s section. If this pisses someone off, then I'm sorry, but really the view that this "southern soul" vein of blues should not be considered the primary one is incredibly ethnocentric.

First paragraph
The first paragraph is terrible --  it isn't even gramatically correct. And the remark that "Amazing Grace" has/can be considered to be a blues is way off base.

You're right about "Amazing Grace" - I'm gonna nuke that sentence. --RobHutten 02:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

first paragraph
I've changed the first paragraph so that it makes sense gramatically, and I've also eliminated the references to the chromatic scale and microtonal pitches; these are details that are discussed later, and it doesn't make sense to mention them in the opening sentence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.170.79.74 (talk • contribs).
 * Please do remember to use the edit summary when editing article pages: I reverted this the first time you did it because there wasn't one to justify removing what looked superficially like reasonable context. So it would have saved you time in the long run. Thanks! Notinasnaid 07:05, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The chromatic-scale stuff is back; I'm nuking it for the reasons stated above. --RobHutten 01:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I think we have to define in the lead at least very roughly what is the blues. I try something. Try to improve it if you will but don't remove it so simply. Vb

Flatted third, fifth and seventh
"Melodically, blues music is marked by the use of the flatted third, fifth and seventh (the so-called blue or bent notes) of the associated major scale."

The way this is worded, it implies that the flatted third, fifth and seventh all replace the diatonic third, fifth and seventh, but that is not the case. The b3 and b5 are often played in addition to the diatonic tones, not replacing them (although in the minor pentatonic blues scale, the b3 and b7 are substituted for the natural 3 and 7). I will edit this to clarify and insert a picture of the blues scale. -- Ci e lomobile minor7♭5 02:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Appropriate talk page use
Please restrict discussions here to the article and its improvement. Wikipedia is not a blog. For more info see Talk page guidelines --Blainster 17:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Genre infoboxes
If someone could check the genre boxes for the different Blues subgenre pages, that would be great -- I've made a few (if you start at Rock music and trace its origins, you'll see the ones I've made), but could only use the information available in the article; someone may be able to fill them in a bit more.

-- TimNelson 03:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Alert: Image nominated for deletion
Please be aware that the image of Muddy Waters,, has been nominated for deletion from Wikipedia here:. All are encouraged to (a) participate in the discussion there, (b) improve the article so the value of the image to it is clearer, and/or (c) search for a free image of equal or superior quality.—DCGeist 02:58, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounder and The Blues Brothers
I reinserted some long-ago deleted info that elaborated a bit on Taj Mahal and the movie Sounder, because the music of "Sounder" was popularly and critically acclaimed internationally and did much to revive interest in traditional blues. I replaced the photo of the Blues Brothers with one of Taj Mahal.

I also deleted the reference and accompanying photo of the Blues Brothers. I thought about that. And I even went back when I finished with the revisions to the "See also" and "External links" sections to see if there was some way I could reinsert some reference to them, but I simply couldn't justify it. Even the editor(s?) who inserted the BB information in the article conceded the movie really had nothing to do with blues. And, frankly, I seriously doubt the movie had anything to do with reviving interest in the blues, per se -- more in old-school R&B. I think that if Wikipedia is to be taken seriously as an encyclopedia/reference work, it has to get beyond inserting what amounts to fairly shallow pop culture trivia into articles and stick to the subject matter at hand. Mentioning the Blues Brothers here, IMO, is completely gratuitous. It's the playing of a pop-culture word association game by a generation whose knowledge of subject matter already is too often informed by pop-culture schlock rather than meaningful scholarship. Wikipedia can -- and should -- do better. deeceevoice 10:01, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree with the actions, wouldn't put the Blues Brothers down that hard, I disregarded their stuff when the film came out, thinking it was just pop, and was pleasantly surprised to find some nice blues, ok R&B, in the mix. They may have brought some new interest in the blues, but fully agree that Taj and others did much more. . .. dave souza, talk 20:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

When you write "BB" even though your paragraph is about the Blues Brothers it is still not right. And also the line that says BB is a guitar virtuoso is probably not right. Just put Mr. Chairman or something. He is the best. King of the Blues. Not something like Steve Vai. Check out the definition of virtuoso. It doesn't mean every note counts. I know this is petty and this article is, well, you know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.255.226.51 (talk) 00:20, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Timeline
"Blues music later adopted elements from the "Ethiopian airs", minstrel shows" Most sources state that reports of "blues" didn't start until the early 1900s, and "Ethiopian airs" came way before that. We could say that "African American musicians adopted". Anyone want to defend the current sentence? Steve Pastor (talk) 19:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

sample music
Perhaps some traditional african blues (eg by Baaba Maal, Mory Kanté, Youssou N'Dour may be included as sample music. At present its solely american-inspired sample music. 87.64.201.4 (talk) 19:26, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That is because blues is condsidered to be primarily an African American music. Steve Pastor (talk) 20:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The sample music isnt that got copyright laws Shaunsomeone (talk) 12:28, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Hokum
Ruth Brown's song (can't nail down the title) is probably the best example of this.


 * I own a secondhand furniture store and I think my prices are fair,
 * Course this real cheap guy I know came in one day.
 * Saw this chair he wanted to buy, but he wouldn't, claimed the price was too high.
 * So I looked straight in the eye, and this was my reply... 


 * If I can't sell it, I'm gonna sit down on it. 
 * I ain't gonna give it away.
 * Now darling if you want it, you're gonna have to buy it.
 * And I mean just what I say.


 * Now how would you like to find this waitin at home for you every night?
 * Only been used once or twice but it's still nice and TIGHT!

Source and lots more verses: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x3437039 DOR (HK) (talk) 05:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Stylistic origins question
Why is Country music listed as a stylistic origin to Blues music? Caribbean1 (talk) 19:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I am not clear why. In Music of the United States, it says "Country music is primarily a fusion of African American blues and spirituals with Appalachian folk music, adapted for pop audiences and popularized beginning in the 1920s."


 * Country music says country music "is a blend of popular musical forms originally found in the Southern United States and the Appalachian Mountains. It has roots in traditional folk music, Celtic music, blues, gospel music, hokum, and old-time music and evolved rapidly in the 1920s."


 * Maybe the different forms of American music all influenced each other until the "genres" became formally categorised. The Blues article does not clarify. &mdash; Mattisse (Talk) 20:04, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:HowlinWolf MoaninAtMidnight.ogg
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 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

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I didn't look like a "clear improvement" to me
I reverted an edit that removed the following:


 * Blues music later adopted elements from the "Ethiopian airs", minstrel shows and Negro spirituals, including instrumental and harmonic accompaniment. The style also was closely related to ragtime, which developed at about the same time, though the blues better preserved "the original melodic patterns of African music". The blues form itself bears no resemblance to the melodic styles of the West African griots, and the influences are faint and tenuous. And no specific African musical form can be identified as the single direct ancestor of the blues.

Someone (without a Wikipedia account) restored the cut and stated that the removal was a "clear improvement". I don't get it. There's no discussion of the "improvement" on this page and the information included in the removed excerpt seems pertinent and well documented, so I put it back.

So, am I missing something that makes this removal a "clear improvement"? Ortolan88 (talk) 14:08, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * This must be some misunderstanding: You reverted the following edit:  The clear improvement was the addition of a reference and the change of the refering style to "Nothing but the blues" (this change of style is due to the fact that I intend to refer to this source several times -- I haven't done it yet!) Vb (talk) 21:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Back to featured article status?
I have put recently a lot of work in new references. I however think there are still plenty work to do to get this article featured. In particular several bad referenced paragraphs should be simply suppressed. However it may be that some editors can find references for these pieces. Moreover the style is not that good and many sentences are quite fishy. The help of good editors would be very welcome. I am awaiting your sugestions before proceeding further. Vb (talk) 20:08, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

clarification needed in the "Lyrics" section
i've tried to clarify the sentence about the "AAB pattern" - the previous wording called the "B" part "a single line conclusion", which is confusing because most mortals (i believe) think of that as two lines. i'm sure it can be expressed more precisely than what i've written ("a longer concluding line"), but i don't own the source cited (Ferris, page 230) and don't want to stray too far from whatever it says. but if we could provide specific examples and/or state the number of bars the A & B segments occupy, that would certainly help a lot.

meanwhile, what timeframes are meant by "early" and "current" is way unclear, which is why i've tagged them - i might guess what the source cited means, but a reader shouldn't have to guess. thanks for any help making that more specific. Sssoul (talk) 06:33, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Irish Music
The singing style of blues was clearly influenced by traditional Irish music.

There is a wealth of documented evidence proving that the supposed "black" singing style also exsisted in the vocal stylings of Irish music. Don't you think southern blacks were influenced by this at all? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kobashiloveme (talk • contribs) 21:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Can you produce a verifiable and reliable source for that?--Sabrebd (talk) 21:47, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I would love to see this "wealth of documented evidence". It IS true that African American dance involved the blending of the two cultures. It would not be a total surprise to learn of creolization or blending of music. Awaiting anxiously. Steve Pastor (talk) 17:00, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Why no mention of British folk melodies?
Why is there no mention of the fact that early blues melodies were often idential to - or derived from - folk melodies of the British Isles (England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, etc.)? I find this omission very odd. If you doubt me, just look at the corpus of someone like Leadbelly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.77.132 (talk) 22:18, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Santana
I think there ought to be at least a brief mention of Santana in the 60's section. There's currently a lot of material about British blues in that section, but nothing about Latin blues (of which Santana was the paramount example). Stonemason89 (talk) 20:42, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Quills!
Quills should be mentioned in this article. Quills you say? Well... http://www.sohl.com/Quills/Quills.htm ;-j --83.248.239.86 (talk) 08:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Please read reliable sources.-- SabreBD  (talk)  09:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 08:51, 19 April 2016 (UTC)