Talk:Blues/Archive 2

Article title
I've reverted the move by User:SilkTork to change this article name to "The blues", which in my view is a major step which requires discussion and community consensus here first. I'm not necessarily against the move, but am strongly in favour of the need for it to be discussed here first. Having said that, I'm personally going to be off-site for a couple of days, and look forward to joining the debate on my return. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:29, 31 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I've restored to the correct use of the term as the reason given for reverting is not neccessary. See Don't revert due to "no consensus", and also Reverting. The blues is the form that appears to be widely used when discussing the blues. I did a little research before making the move, and I also checked back in the archives to see if this had previously been discussed. It looks to me as though "blues" has been used as the title incorrectly, and others reading the article have simply assumed that the person naming it "blues" did so because there was a valid reason which they didn't know about. If there are valid reasons for calling it "blues" then it would be worth presenting them so a discussion can take place.  SilkTork  *YES! 18:05, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Requested move (1)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved back to original title. Nancy talk  10:43, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

The blues → Blues — So far as I am aware, this page has been located at "Blues" since it was created in 2001, until the last few days. Again, so far as I am aware, there has been no dispute, objection or discussion about that title. However, on 31 December, User:SilkTork moved the article, without any prior discussion, to "The blues", in this edit. After I reverted here, the article was moved back to "The blues" here.

The current article title "The blues" is unjustified on several counts. Firstly, the title "Blues" is long-established and has been uncontested. WP:TITLECHANGES states: "If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed." Secondly, the title "The blues" contravenes WP:TITLE in several respects. It is not the term "that readers are most likely to look for in order to find the article". It is not concise. Guidance at WP:DEFINITE states: "Avoid definite and indefinite articles: Do not place definite or indefinite articles (the, a and an) at the beginning of titles unless they are part of a proper name...or will otherwise change the meaning..." - neither of which applies. In terms of general usage, although the term "The blues" (or "The Blues") is a widely used term, there is no evidence at all that it is any more widely used than the term "Blues" (or, for example, "Blues music"). For all these reasons, the article should have its long-established title, "Blues", reinstated. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:12, 2 January 2011 (UTC) --Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:12, 2 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Support per nom / revert undiscussed move. —   AjaxSmack   22:14, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Support; we avoid "the" wherever possible. Powers T 00:19, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. --- cymru.lass (hit me up)⁄(background check) 06:24, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name discussion (2)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved Kotniski (talk) 16:26, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Blues → Blues music — I'm afraid the first discussion was too quick for me. I wasn't able to take part and give my views. Rationale for naming the article Blues music.


 * The blues appears to be the standard form for naming and discussing this topic. A blues singer would say "I sing the blues" rather than "I sing blues". The definite article is dropped when it is replaced by a descriptor, such as "Chicago" blues, or by the indefinite article, such as "a" blues singer. When linked to "music", it becomes "blues music", and is acceptable in that form. However the form "blues" does not often appear by itself. The form "the blues" falls into the same category as The Crown, which is indicated in WP:NOUN. I came to this article because of an awkward link construction on another article where someone had written "the blues" . However, because WP:NOUN frowns upon the use of the definite article, and there is uncertainty about using it in this article an alternative is Blues music. Blues music would be more descriptive, and avoid the possible conflict over the Wikipedia reluctance to use the definite article. We already have Rock music, Pop music, Soul music, Swing music, Folk music, etc. There are examples of music form articles which do stand alone, such as Jazz and Reggae, though with these examples there is no risk of confusion or conflict. I will notify significant contributors and WikiProjects of this discussion, and request that it is not closed for at least seven days, to allow a consensus to be built up.  SilkTork  *YES! 12:51, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose move. Firstly, "(the) blues" is much more common than "blues music" and this article is the clear primary topic for "blues". The situation is different from, for example, "rock music" because rock music is not considered to be the primary topic for rock (which is a disambiguation page) and has to be disambiguated from the other meanings somehow anyway. Secondly, WP:THE specifies that we only start a page title with the definite article if the article is habitually capitalized in running text. This is not the case here, which is why we use blues and not the blues. Jafeluv (talk) 13:11, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose; proposed title is overly precise. Powers T 13:34, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Neutral on "Blues" vs. "Blues music", as either could work ok and I'm not averse to consistency of naming with other styles of music. Since the above rationale includes a lot about "Blues" vs "The blues", I'll also say I oppose the version with the unnecessary definite article (and would also regard the "I play blues" sentence as perfectly normal). AllyD (talk) 16:23, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Support, or move to Blues (music). To many people "blues" or The blues" (ignoring case of letters) first means depression, or some Army unit or football club, etc: see Blues (disambiguation). Let the plain name be the disambig page. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:37, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose no need to move it per above. You named this examples:


 * Rock music, Pop music, Soul music, Swing music, Folk music
 * they have all the "music" after the genre, without it would define the first word.
 * Rock, Pop, Soul, Swing, Folk


 * According to Google, the term "Blues" has more results:
 * Blues: 157,000,000 130.000.000(searched "Blues" instead of Blues)
 * Blues music: 111,000,000-- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ T 17:16, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Not surprising. How many of those 157 million are about music?  Powers T 18:19, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * A Google search for "blues" turns up, , , , , and on the first page of results. "Blues" is a well used term, which can imply being depressed, or a sports team who wear blue, or a number of other things. At one time it was a common name for downers, and some animals and insects are referred to as blues. So a Google search just for "blues" would be including a bunch of things that are not "blues music". It's likely the 46,000,000 extra results for "blues" over "blues music" would be the other things.  SilkTork  *YES! 18:26, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Support to be consistent with Rock music, Pop music, Soul music, Swing music, Folk music.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:01, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Consistency among similar articles of course plays a role in determining the article's title, but the situation is a little different here. The titles you list are all disambiguated because the music genre has not been determined as the primary topic of rock, pop, soul, swing and folk. If the proposal is to keep blues redirecting to this page as well, it makes no sense to use a disambiguated title. That is, unless you're saying that the music genre is more commonly referred to as "blues music" than just blues. Note also how jazz, reggae, rhythm and blues, gospel etc. use non-disambiguated titles. Jafeluv (talk) 20:25, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose blues is definitely the most common use of the word. The above examples have music in the title because they have other definitions outside of music. Blues is rarely used outside of music. Most people would look up "Sad" or "Sadness" if they wanted the other definition. JDDJS (talk) 20:16, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose. If I had to choose one choice, I would probably choose what is being served currently. I probably wouldn't mind if it changed to "blues music", but I like it simply as "blues" because it is more commonly used than "blues music". Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 00:33, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose. "Blues" (without definite article) is a very widely and commonly used term, and there is no good reason to depart from established practice and guidance here.  If there were very strong reasons, I would not necessarily oppose either "Blues music" or "Blues (music)" - but none of the arguments made so far have convinced me that such a move is either necessary or helpful.  I remain opposed to naming the article "The blues" for reasons already stated.  I also agree with the points made by User:Jafeluv, in particular.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:06, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I see both sides of this one, remembering that the first time I tried to find the blues on Wikipedia I included the definite article. However, a search on google books reveals that there are a very large number of important titles that simply use the form "blues". Therefore I think the move is unecessary. If a move were demonstrated to be necessary I would probably prefer "the blues" to "blues music", but both would be accurate and I could see myself joining a consensus around them.--''' SabreBD  (talk ) 09:20, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose. It's like "Rock and roll". You'd sure hear some calling it "Rock and roll music", but the common usage is "Rock and roll". Same as "Blues". Common usage is "Blues". No need to change the title. ~ Elitropia (talk) 09:48, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose. When musicians say "I have the blues" it means "I have the blue devils on my mind", i.e. "I am sad". That's why blues usually appears with the "the" in front of it.  I also support the idea that Blues music or Blues (music) is too specific.  I think evereybody understand that the first meaning of blues is a music genre and not a plural form. Vb (talk) 18:51, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose. "Blues" is just fine. When people see "blues," they automatically think music -- not colors, or mood, or anything else.  "Blues music" reads as a redundancy.  A disambiguation page will solve any problem with perceived lack of specificity for those few who may be confused.  Further, when Black folk talk about "singing the blues," they're talking about being down -- not actually singing the blues.  When B.B. King sings "Why I sing the blues," that's rather a lyrical accommodation to meter, rather than the way Black folks talk.  If I'm referring to a blues artist, I'll say, "He/She sings blues" -- not "the blues."  Or, I'll say, "He called me, singin' the blues about his supervisor bein' on his back all the time."  He's not actually singing; he's complaining, or sad/down-in-the-mouth ABOUT something. It strikes me that this discussion is somewhat ethnically skewed as well; that is, people are responding based on their own culturally mediated experiences -- as am I, to a certain extent.  I mean Brit David Bowie's song about "danc[ing] the blues"?  The lyrics are just jarringly strange to me.  No one Black talks of "dancing the blues" -- and I'm not sure many native-born U.S. citizens of any ethnicity do either. deeceevoice (talk) 16:18, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Nobody" song
Could the 1905 song "Nobody" be worth mentioning for being a very 'popular' song,yet, the subject seems to express The Blues fairly well.(click here for lyrics) SignedJohnsonL623 (talk) 02:27, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * There is a danger of over-simplification, but it seems to me that some information from this source - which mentions Bert Williams, the co-writer and singer of "Nobody", at some length - could usefully be added to the article on Origins of the blues. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:48, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh, dear. has anyone written or stated that this song is in "blues form", musically or lyrically in any way? Steve Pastor (talk) 18:11, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I just heard that on UTube and, according to me, this bit might be sad but has nothing to do with the blues. Vb 09:35, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

The tablature figure is munged in Forms.
The figure below the text:
 * "An example is provided by the following guitar tablature for the first four bars of a blues progression in E:"

is scrambled in Firefox 5.01. It appears there is unreadable text on top of a picture? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.127.87.28 (talk) 19:51, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Blues Jam
Blues is mostly based on improvisation. That opens up for new musical meetings at "jam sessions". At a jam session, the musicians get together and play with people they have not met before. This is an important element for blues music and its circulation of influences.

Here is an example of fine improvisation at a jam session.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkN4ii4-igc — Preceding unsigned comment added by PhaseWatson (talk • contribs) 22:32, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

origin of the term
I know „to be blue“ or „to have the blues“ like "to be sad" and I believe, blues was in origin a Lament of people in Slavery in the United States. They had enough reasons to be sad, fate of slavery, deprived oh their liberty, rapes, corporal punishment, forced disconnection of families, …

Like in „Red Roses for a Blue Lady“ or Everyday I have the blues

There are no sources about… ??? --Ohrnwuzler (talk) 13:44, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I've found Blue at Wikipedia = sadness and this source and this source or this, blue devils, blue, feeling blue. Are these sources (or the sources of this sources) O.K. for Wikipedia? --Ohrnwuzler (talk) 03:08, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I've added the information I found into a new section Blues. I'm not an expert on the subject so if anyone can find a better or more definitive source please add it in Jeanpetr (talk) 18:18, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Check Jerome K. Jerome's book 'Idle Thoughts of an Idle Fellow' of 1886. The second article reads "On being in the blues". Here, the term is already used in the modern sense of "being depressed". So the expression seems to have been common in England at the time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1205:5045:1600:9020:C296:3151:A0F3 (talk) 17:47, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Sound Clips
As a music student, one of my homework assignments is to research the history of blues. I went to the blues page here at Wikipedia and was surprised to find no sound examples of different types of blues. Wouldn't it be nice if Wikipedia used the full potential of an online encyclopedia by adding music clips to illustrate styles of music Nemesister (talk) 15:18, 5 April 2014 (UTC)Nemesister
 * I can see ten sound clips in the article, representing a diverse variety of styles. What am I missing?  Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:21, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

New Lead
User OnBeyondZebrax changed the lead paragraph to a very long one with plenty of details which I think are not relevant to the common reader. For instance "The first publication of blues sheet music was in 1908: Antonio Maggio's "I Got the Blues" is the first published song to use the word blues." is not an information which is worth telling at this place. The same is IMHO true for "There are few characteristics common to all blues music, because the genre took its shape from the idiosyncrasies of individual performances." I think such a major change to the article should be discussed here before being implemented. I shall reverse those changes in a near future if no opposite opinion were to be expressed. Vbrems (talk) 15:12, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Reverse what changes? All of them??  The changes made by OnBeyondZebrax represented a big improvement on what was there previously, making it more informative and more in line with general WP practice on introductory sections.  I'm happy with at least 90% of the current version, though like you I think that the Maggio reference is far too obscure and tangential to be mentioned in the lead.  But, all it needs is a bit of tweaking, not a total reversion to the earlier inadequate version.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:06, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Etymology/Indigo
Removed the entire paragraph about the plant & dye indigo as source for the term "blues." The only reference cited was a radio or tv program w/ no transcript provided. Tapered (talk) 21:44, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Confusing sentence in lead
"The genre is a fusion of traditional African music and European folk music, spirituals, work songs, field hollers, shouts and chants, and rhymed simple narrative ballads."

Imo, a) this sentence needs to be split in two; and b) the first statement (underlined) needs to be expressed more clearly to reflect the source (which does not actually make the claim, as currently written), if necessary using more scholarly sourcing (eg ), to avoid the potential for very real misunderstandings. Hope this helps. 86.157.144.92 (talk) 18:20, 3 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Hmm...  I've tried rewording it:  "The genre developed from a fusion of traditional African music and European folk music, that incorporated spirituals, work songs, field hollers, shouts and chants, and rhymed simple narrative ballads."  Is that an improvement?  Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:02, 3 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Hum... thanks Ghmyrtle, that certainly links the two parts of the sentence better. I'm not sure, though, that "incorporated" is altogether appropriate. I still feel two separate sentences could be preferable here. How about something like: "The genre developed from a fusion of African and European folk traditions (ref). [sorry, that doesn't seem right either...] The genre originally drew on elements derived from African and European folk traditions.(ref) Early influences seem to include..."
 * (Fwiw, I'm sensitive to the need to keep the language of the lead simple.)  86.157.144.92 (talk) 19:34, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Negro spirituals
What do you all think about the use of the term Negro spirituals in the infobox? Would simply spirituals be an adequate term? Jwicklatz (talk) 01:15, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Valid Sources Please
The BBC is an academic source about the Blues? No American source availble? They do not even support the claim. There are no examples or exploration. What Folk Music? What songs? This source does not expand on any of this. No examples. No analysis. What did the use from the folk songs. The slaves did not use the folk music from Africa? This "sharing" occured in the racist segregated south? The illiterare sharecroppers plagatized what exactly? Ghey had no folk songs. The people who had negro slave spirituals did not have folk music? This Little Light, Go tell it on the mountain,  He's Got the Whole World in His Hands and.... many, many more... Why did they  use European music? Do blacks listen to white music? Do they like the Beatles, Elvis? This is more racist whitewashing.. Blacks used English... That is about it. .. Jesus... Show some valid sources.. There was no direct and/or substantial influence from songs they probably didn't know. The slaves, share croppers made music everyday. "Nigger work songs" "Negro Spirituals" are Folk Music. Name or cite a Blues musician who credits influnce to European folk music. The BBC really? I will be contacting them.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2016‎ 2601:647:8200:4e5e:7464:5328:c4b:d30f (talk • contribs) 10:26, 20 June
 * Here's a different source:

The musical influences of the early blues are not solely African-American. Slave culture did not grow in a vacuum devoid of Western societal influence. The slave owner’s traditions segued into the past African and African-American stimuli to change the musical technique distinctly. All Western European ethnicities in the New World influenced the emerging genre’s style.

The first blues used the guitar, an instrument Spanish in origin and, perhaps, introduced into the Delta by Mexican and Italian immigrants during the late 1890s. Spanish/Latino song practices came into serious involvement with the instrumentation of the first blues. Tenant housing on Dockery Plantation between Ruleville and Cleveland, Mississippi boasted this ethnic mixture during the beginning of the twentieth century. The guitar perfectly suited the rural musician in an accompaniment capacity. Its small size and weight allowed mobility, while at the same time having a large and varied tonal range for different performance styles. The flexible rhythmic qualities of the guitar allowed the musician to add emotion and dramatics to each different song when warranted. The 6 and 12 string arrangement of the instrument allowed for variable tunings. A popular tuning was the "Spanish" tuning (D-G-D-G-B-D) or open A. This tuning was primarily used for slide guitar compositions. This tuning is similar to a standard banjo tuning, so adaptation from one instrument to the other was easily learned. The tonal composition was more fluid and orchestral than a standard E tuning. This allowed for a fuller, extra textural sound during performance.

Anglo-European influence can also be seen in the surfacing of the Delta Blues.

The first popular African-American musicians were trained to play classical European music. Waltzes appear in most accounts of minstrel shows. European folk tunes and hymns from the British Isles found their way into black music in such songs as "Greensleeves", "Lord Randall", and " The Golden Vanity". The nuances of the folk tunes would mix with whatever ethnicity was predominant in the region. Caucasian country music would arise from these in some areas while zones with Afro-American majorities started the blues. The musicians’ methodology was much less segregated than conventional society, with genre styles intermingling with one another freely.

Charlie Patton, and subsequently country artists like Jimmie Rogers and Hank Williams, held no constriction to a genre mentally, just in playing capability. Patton’s "Going To Move To Alabama", is a prime example of this integration. The song is the basic blues form, but the fiddle accompaniment adds the distinct sound of a white country song. Hank Williams’s "Move It on Over" is an almost blatant copy of Patton’s song.

The structure of most ballads was almost identical to that of early blues, with the AAB form, and differed in the minstrel type in that the blues concerned bawdier, less publicly performed subjects. The Anglo-European style was already apparent in most minstrelsy, so picking up on the structure was relatively easy for most blues musicians. The subject matter dealt with in ballads is also echoed in the blues. Ballads dealt with themes of love, locations, people, and events. The ballad almost always took the narrative form, relying on the iconography of the subject matter to help produce greater imagery in the song.

The main division between African-American and Caucasian styles of balladry is the degree to which the topic matter was taken. The "black" ballad venerated outlaws, tricksters, and folk heroes its "white" relative would never touch, and at a much faster, call and response oriented rhythm. Figures such as John Henry, Long Jim or John, Stackolee, and the Grey Goose permeated the storylines of most of these songs. "John Henry", the black railroad worker who wins the Pyrrhic victory over the steam engine and consequently dies, represents the conflict between white and black, and even the fight against industrialization. "John Henry"-type songs were performed in minstrelsy, but not with the same character content shown in this type of ballad. The occupation of John Henry could be changed to fit any form of work the African-American was engaged in. "Long John" or "Long Jim" were aphorisms for the downtrodden worker or prisoner who rebelled against his master successfully. "Stackolee" or Stagger Lee was a "bad nigger" who completely disregarded the society that held him captive and murdered or committed violence against others. "Stackolee" is so unstoppable that in some versions he dies and then battles the devil in Hell and wins. The "Grey Goose" was a sign for indestructibility and defiance in the face of an almost insurmountable enemy. The goose is shot, skinned, and eaten, but is seen once again flying over its killers.

These influences melded the Western with the African, and changed music forever. The infiltration of the European styles into the Afro-American cultural lexicon produced an inherently new and distinct genre. The drawing from these different roots would make the blues startlingly new, but with historically recognizable oral, social, and ethnic themes. The European styles picked up by the musicians would be the final ingredient to the emergence of the early "Downhome" blues.
 * Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:13, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Origins: dubious “attestation"
"That blue notes predate their use in blues and have an African origin is attested to by "A Negro Love Song", by the English composer Samuel Coleridge-Taylor, from his African Suite for Piano, written in 1898, which contains blue third and seventh notes.” insofar as Coleridge-Taylor was born and bred in London and had never been to Africa, but visited the USA a number of times, this assertion is reaching, to say the least. No mention is made of the common theory that the blue notes resulted from the slave’s wavering attempts to assimilate the unfamiliar “hard” notes of the diatonic scales, particularly the major third, which he found in the hymnals of his masters. Orthotox (talk) 20:02, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

This is original research and has no place in Wikipedia.--DanJazzy (talk) 09:22, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2018
216.16.232.115 (talk) 19:38, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.  Anon 126   (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 21:28, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2018
102.148.36.137 (talk) 06:53, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.-- SkyGazer 512 Oh no, what did I do this time? 12:18, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Starting date for the blues
Of course we never will or should try to be overly precise about this, but "around the end of the 19th century" was not precise enough, especially as Blues states:

The first appearance of the blues is usually dated after the Emancipation Act of 1863,[35] between 1870 and 1900

Also, Boogie-woogie is the blues, sped up and played (initially) on the piano, and it seems to date to the 1870s. I'd speculate the blues existed before boogie-woogie did, but speculation is not part of an encyclopedia. However, I think we should honor the range of "the 1870s". Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:40, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Blue notes
I just changed the erroneous "flattened minor third" to "flattened major third", but neutral third is closer to the spirit of old-time blues. Should we link the term, at least in parentheses? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:52, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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 * Blind Willie Walker - Dupree Blues.ogg