Talk:Boğaziçi University

move?
Can we move this page to the name "Boğaziçi University"? Adam78 15:29, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

✔️ – with this move by another editor. Senator2029 【talk】 00:16, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Source
The entire history section is taken word-for-word from the Boğaziçi University website: History of Bogazici University. Xemxi 17:46, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

rectors
well, the names presented in the rectors section are actually the ones who were rectors of Robert College before BU was founded. those names also appear on the present high school's page...i think they should be only mentioned here but should not be presented as the past rectors of BU, because they were not.--Quinlan Vos 01:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

the necessary changes about it has been made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.175.76.110 (talk) 15:08, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

School's policy is to title these people as "The presidents of RC and BU", and to define RC as "the nucleus of BU". Past relations with RC is a subject open to debate here and is a subject of constant debate in BU itself. Probably it is better to accept the official policy. Even now the buildings are known with their original names, the Computer Center still is using old names on servers... Reventlov 16:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Robert College Alumni cannot be included in the list of notable alumni
The names of Robert College alumni cannot be included in the list of notable alumni, due to the fact that Robert College is not equal to Bogazici in any case. First of all, some of the Robert College alumni listed there graduated only from Robert College's high school let alone be a student in college section. Even if that was the case, and they graduated from Robert College, Robert Yuksek, Robert Academy before 1971, they cannot be named Bogazici University alumni. This is a fact, which cannot be ignored by saying Robert College was the former name of Bogazici University (which is not true, by the way). Robert College only donated one of its two campuses to the Republic of Turkey, with all of its buildings and facilities to be refounded as a public, Turkish university, which is not related at all with Robert College's status in Turkey according to the Treaty of Lausanne. The only bond today, that exists between Robert College and Bogazici University is the fact that Bogazici is a public university that was founded on the campus which was built (South) and used for nearly a century by Robert College. Due to the constitutional changes, Robert College students lost their privilege to be admitted to Bogazici University without the OSS, like the French schools and Galatasaray Lisesi graduates direct entry to Galatasary University. In other words with the loss of the right of direct entry, Bogazici University has lost all of its connection with Robert College. The symbolic foundation date of 1863, is similar to the symbolic date of foundation of Istanbul University, 1453. The fact that a new institution was founded on a former campus of another, does not make the new one, the contiunation of the old. For the reasons stated, the list of alumni cannot include people, who have graduated from Robert College, Robert Yuksek and Robert Academy, or anyone who graduated before 1971, the legal date of foundation of Bogazici University. --Maestro 14:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

i suggest you to find and delete them if you know them --Ugur Gumushan (talk) 17:10, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Robert alumnus should be considered as Boğaziçi University alumnus because of the fact that Robert College was renamed as Boğaziçi University. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andacbaran (talk • contribs) 16:16, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Robert College != Bogazici University But...
I agree with Meastro if you graduate from Bogazici University you are not a Robert College High School Graduate unless you graduated from Robert College High School (İstanbul Amerikan Robert Lisesi) earlier.

But having said that, I must add that Bogazici University did in fact inherit the traditions of Robert College as the first American College outside or United States:

Bogazici University kept its institutions intact and the students enjoyed a typical American College campus life including the extracurricular activities that are typical of US college campuses (clubs, fraternities, etc.) Robert college was split into two in 1971 as a College and a High School after a bill was passed in the Turkish parliament that nationalized the education. The College part of former "Robert College" is today's Bogazici University and the High school part was joined by ACG (American College for Girls or Uskudar Amerikan in Turkish) to became Istanbul American Robert Lisesi.

The contention between the Robert Lise and Bogazici University students and the alumni is that The High school retained the name "American" in its name and the college did not, and it was named "Bogazici University". The polemical discussion posted by Maestro above is about "who is more American", the Amerikan Robert Lisesi or the Bogazici University.

Up until 1980 when YOK (Council for the Hiher Education) was founded by the junta rejime, the universities in Turkey had retained their academic independence. Moreover, until 1980 the Universities in Turkey were more like a sovereign states: they had their senates they made the rules and the bylaws, they had the right to allow or deny police force in their campus etc. They ran pretty much like a city state up until 1980. So Bogazici University was very much like a typical US college of the same period.

The nationalization of the Universities also meant that the graduates of Robert Lisesi were no longer automatically entitled to be admitted to Bogazici University after high school graduation as they were prior to 1971. They had to take the "Entrance Exam" (Equivalent of SAT) and compete against the rest of the high school graduates in Turkey. Graduates of Amerikan Robert Lisesi and Uskudar Amerikan Lisesi are academically very proficient but Bogazici University admitted very few students every year and the demand was too high and those rural poor Turkish kids were also clever after all. Having to compete with the rest of the Turkish high school graduates to be admitted to Bogazici University was a contentious point for Robert Lisesi and Uskudar Amerikan Lisesi graduates. Before 1971 every Amerikan High school graduate was entitled an Admission to Robert College which was no longer the case.

Today both schools are very much like American instutions: Robert Lisesi is more like a prep school for the rich kids and Bogazici University is more like the University of California, Berkeley, that you really need to be very clever to get in.

So the gripe that the rich kids of Robert Lisesi raise is very similar to dynamics of "Affirmative Action" in the US that some "non-white or non-rich kids" are admitted to the positions which were slated to the Robert Lisesi graduates before. Even this disagreement is very American. So yes I agree with Maestro graduating from Bogazici Universit does not mean that you are a "Robert College" graduate and there is a wealth of information to dig there! AverageTurkishJoe 06:01, 27 May 2007 (UTC) AverageTurkishJoe

If one asks whether Robert Lisesi or Bogazici University represents the Robert College heritage, my answer is definitely Bogazici University. The alumni should be excluded from Robert Lisesi not from Bogazici Unviversity, because a liberal college in U.S. terms is a higher institution not a high school. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Corlumeh (talk • contribs) 16:59, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

After the separation of collage and high school of Robert, we should add all the alumnus of the collage as Boğaziçi Alumnus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andacbaran (talk • contribs) 15:57, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Headscarf ban
Is it appropriate to include headscarf issue in the introductory part of the article? I don't mean it should not be mentioned. But its place is a bit weird. --Emredmrl (talk) 15:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Rankings
I deleted the following part:

Boğaziçi University is neither among the top 3 Turkish universities (Istanbul Technical University #1, Bilkent University #2 and Sabanci University #3) in the field of engineering/technology according to Times Higher Education Supplement nor listed in Academic Ranking of World Universities in Engineering/Technology and Computer Sciences - 2009

The information above misrepresents the reality due to following reasons:

1. The ranking of the university is not listed in the mentioned lists. This doesn't add any new information. It may be due to reasons that the university was not reviewed by the rankers.

2. There are several criticisms regarding the Times Higher Education Supplement. You cannot claim that the university is not among top 3 only because of this specific ranking. You should add more valid proofs for this claim. --Mertnuhoglu (talk) 12:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I am the Coordinator for International Affairs of Boğaziçi University. I believe the "Ranking" information recently added to this entry has not been in "good faith". It could even be classified as hostile since it mentions other university names for no apparent reason. In the Turkish higher education system all students have to go through a centralized examination to enter the university. This addition probably aims at influencing those who will take that exam and use wikipedia as their source of information.

The University will closely monitor the entry for Boğaziçi University and add more information with references about the University.

Sincerely Prof. Taner Bilgiç — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tanerb (talk • contribs) 16:56, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Dear Prof Bilgic,

Wikipedia is a source of information. Nobody can censor referenced information due to conflict of interest. If someone has doubts about the credibility of rankings, they are free to discuss this point within the Wikipedia page of the foregoing ranking. There is a fair amount of text involving subjective praise to Bogazici University in the article. This kind of groundless promotion attempts are neither fair nor compatible with the mission of Wikipedia.

Sincerely,

Konmaz — Preceding unsigned comment added by Konmaz (talk • contribs) 10:54, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

---

Dear Konmaz,

It is true, Wikipedia is a source of information, but the way information is presented is as important as the information itself. While you may be correct about the ranking (note: you may or you may not be - further research will be needed with more sources), the way the current information is presented is not the most efficient way.

For example, you said "Wikipedia is a source of information" - that wording and presentation of the sentence makes sense, and is relatively true. However, it is also true that you could state instead, "Wikipedia is a not a source of non-information.” While this sentence would be correct, presenting it this way could potentially cause more confusion, misunderstanding, and uncertainty.

Such is the case with the ranking information in the Bogazici University Wikipedia page. While you 'could' say, “Boğaziçi University is neither among the top 3 Turkish universities…” (the ‘fact’ still being debatable, for rankings are based on numerous factors and points-of-views), it would be more direct, concise, and succinct if we were to elaborate on what the actual ranking is according to different sources.

For example, we could focus on what rankings different sources give Bogazici, and the methods they used to make this judgment.

I believe this would eradicate any possible misinterpretation, and would actually state a fact on the ranking, rather than stating merely what it is not.

-K.A. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.187.245.0 (talk) 23:17, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I believe under Wikipedia policies for Neutral Point of View, this section on ranking would not be considered impartial tone. If the section is on Rankings, why is it that there is no actual ranking of the university. Having a whole section just to say that it isn't even ranked is also not in keeping with positive tone. Positive tone states that we should start out positive if able. If this were a topic entry on the comparative merits of Turkish universities, the compare or contrasting of various universities would be instructive. Even such, it would need to be worded similar to "For Engineering, ITU ranks #1. Bilkent #2. Sabanci #3. Bogazici #X". Since this topic is specifically about Bogazici, it is not NPOV to state that in these fields, it is not in the Top 3.

For this reason, I have removed the negative tone and replaced it with an actual ranking I found based on Webmetrics. I think Mertnuhoglu is most correct, though, in that these rankings are subject to debate based on their methodology. There is no established, single source that is commonly used for ranking universities. By definition, it will always be subjective. Therefore, I might submit this needs to be removed altogether--Billyshakes (talk) 00:24, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

The university should have an employee monitor this article! There is this one person who constantly adds inappropriate claims under the ranking section, using language like "The university's such and such department neither ranks in X nor in Y," completely disregarding the appropriate way of writing an article, and the conditions of Turkey. One does not - and should not - write an article about a university saying what it is NOT; the article should be about what it IS. I can say a million negative things about what Harvard is not, but such language is not appropriate for an encyclopedia, nor would it be written in any good faith. I keep monitoring the article and changing such language, but please some admins from the university should also deal with this, and so should the other Bogazici students. I live abroad, and see tens of people who are affected by this article, and believe Bogazici is a 3rd class university, when in fact it is arguably the best in Turkey, and is definitely the most selective. Best, A Bogazici Univ graduate ~Jacksantr~ --Jacksantr 12:22, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

OSS rankings
It's laughable that this article mentions several low-relevance "rankings" information, but fails altogether to mention the quite objective measurement of popularity of Turkish universities: The OSS examinations. It was indeed funny to not see anywhere on the article the simple fact that Bogazici is the most popular university, or at least is one of the most popular 3 universities in Turkey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.123.194.133 (talk) 03:46, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Just because a university is "popular" in a given country (see argumentum ad populum) does not mean it will rank high by international standards. This section is about objective rankings, not subjective popularity. If you want to say that this university is the x best university in Turkey, that is fine, but you will need sources to back up that claim. PS: What is your source that Boğaziçi University is "the most popular university, or at least is one of the most popular 3 universities in Turkey"? --Thorwald (talk) 01:52, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Is it fair to assert that a university is not ranked among the top three institutions of its country even if this university is not evaluated/considered in that particular ranking? Here is the list of universities in the ranking questionnaire: http://research.qsnetwork.com/qs_surveysystem/index.php?viewonly&order=normal&partnerset=0&survey=52&jump_to_section=5
 * If you look to the Turkey tab you can see that only seven universities are considered, mind you there are more than 100 universities in Turkey. I therefore think that giving a ranking information based on this source is irrelevant.--Evandroroncatto (talk) 18:14, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

First, I had no objections to the "Rankings" tab, and I didn't say anything about the international standards. Second, I never said Bogazici is the "best" university in Turkey. I said it was the most popular. Third, my sources were clearly pointed out in my edit, did you care to even look at them? I don't know if you have any idea about the OSS/LYS system, but in this system, the minimum points needed for admission into a program by a school is a direct measure of how popular a given university is. And my sources clearly showed two facts:

1. Bogazici is the school which attracted more top 1000 students (out of 1.500.000) than any other university. 2. The minimum points needed for admission into Bogazici programs (in nearly all programs the university offers) is higher than the equivalent programs offered by other universities. This is true for engineering, applied sciences and social sciences. The minimum points are NOT determined by the university board - they are determined by how many people preferred the university in the OSS exam and how high they scored. Which amounts to popularity.

Now, do you need any more proof that Bogazici is one of the most popular universities, if not THE most popular one, in Turkey? I am reverting back to my edit. 94.123.194.133 (talk) 03:38, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Also I haven't removed the Rankings tab. Someone after me has removed it. I have reverted the page back to the version which talks BOTH about the OSS rankings and the international rankings. 94.123.194.133 (talk) 03:47, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh my God, can't you just relax, why you feel the need to prove that Boğaziçi is a bad university. It's surely one of the best universities in Turkey, with its students & academicians. There isn't any rankings section even in most of the articles about the universities in Wikipedia. Why you feel need to put it here? Research is really important for a university but education is also important. In these rankings education isn't really cared about. And Boğaziçi is state university and it's really hard for it to compete with private universities in research. (Because of financial issues) And why only mention rankings in engineerings? Ciddi bir hazımsızlık var sanırım. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.230.126.63 (talk) 17:11, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with the unsigned comment at the top. The rankings that I put into the article are really laughable and irrelevant. They were all I could find in a quick search of the internet but felt they were better than the previous edition with the Negative POV. OSS rankings or the numbers of top OSS scorers that choose to attend Boğaziçi are certainly more relevant but I didn't have access to that info/didn't think to search for it. I would submit that anyone who has ever spent any time in Turkey and in academia in that country would have a hard time trying to dispute the claim that this school is not one of the most popular academic institutions in the country. It attracts many of the top professors (despite the low wages paid at a state school) who make their reputations and then chase money at some of the other private universities in Istanbul and beyond. To say it is one of the most popular universities is not an attempt to denigrate other schools or say that they are lesser institutions. It is merely to state that there is a certain cachet accorded by the populace for this school, much as Harvard or Stanford would garner in the US or Oxford or Cambridge in the UK. This is not to conflate Boğaziçi with those schools to put it in the same level of excellence. Just a statement of observed opinion. Furthermore, the 4icu methodology linked in the article states that it is based on web popularity and search results. Again, I would assert the whole section probably needs to go based on relevance--Billyshakes (talk) 17:30, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

There is no ranking called "OSS rankings". All rankings that include Bogazici University are listed in the text. If you cannot come up with a better ranking methodology, you need to accept the best existing global university rankings. Even if you do not accept, you do not have the right to stop people access this information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.240.35.66 (talk) 02:06, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

What a big lie you are saying when you say "there is no OSS ranking," when OSS is the ONLY ranking of universities in Turkey, and is done by the Turkish Higher Education Council. And the rankings you constantly keep posting are NOT university rankings; they are, in fact, "university website popularity rankings." Too bad the article is "locked" right now, with your edits being the most recent ones, DESPITE the fact that your edits are misleading, and written with no good faith in mind. I invite the Bogazici University community to take care of this page. I am done with it. All I did with my best intentions have constantly been undone, and not only that, but an editor has now locked the article, making it look like the misleading edit is in fact the representative one. Jacksantr (talk) 05:25, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

There is no OSS ranking. Jacksantr keeps posting absolute BS! (24.128.81.141 (talk) 02:14, 8 October 2010 (UTC))

As mentioned before, there is no such ranking called 'OSS Rankings'. (140.247.214.36 (talk) 20:56, 8 October 2010 (UTC))

Well, someone, who seems to be a student at Istanbul Technical University (which is what I can understand from his previous edits) seems to be constantly attacking this article, and undoing previous edits that correctly depict the university with comments that are misleading, saying things like "The university doesn't rank in the Webometrics rankings, etc." First, you shouldn't decribe a university with what it is not. Second Webometrics is NOT a university ranking, but is rather a "website visibility ranking," and for that reason, the larger a university is, the better it will rank, leaving smaller universities like Bogazici at a disadvantage. The only indication of rankings in the case of Turkish is the OSS results; yet, this information is constantly being undone by some person from Istanbul Technical University who seems to have dedicated his life to this end. Jacksantr —Preceding undated comment added 12:33, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Rankings again
It seems there are two schools of thought here regarding Rankings. There are some people who feel they add no merit to this article and others who feel that there is a great deception going on by the other group to deceive incoming undergrads, etc (read the article edit comments). There is no komplo theory here. Go look at entries for schools such as Oxford. It has a very balanced section on rankings telling in what fields it is ranked #1 and in others where Cambridge ranks higher. There is even a table to look at. However, it is a COMPLETE listing or rankings across ALL majors. Go look at that entry and look at the position of the rankings subsection. It is much lower in the article and I have moved it accordingly here.

In this mini-edit war here, some users continually want to assert the fact that Bogazici University does not rank in the top 3 in certain technical fields. Fair enough. What about in Social Sciences and Humanities fields? Where is that information. If you continually try to force your own sentence on rankings, without any other information, you are skewing the article and not providing a Neutral Point of View as I have stated in a previous comment. Furthermore, by putting your section as the lead paragraph in the section, you are pushing a negative tone, also against Wiki policies.

In an effort to be conciliatory, I have kept your paragraph and placed it after the other ranking info. The way it now reads, it starts with the positive tone. Then, your edit comes next to contrast the previous information. This article is about Bogazici University and its Rankings. It isn't about how much better other schools are. If you are happy that ITU is ranked #1 in certain fields, put it under the ITU entry (don't worry, I know it is already there--also, note its subsection position in the article). Its inclusion in this article as its own section is done with an agenda as your comments so clearly indicate. --Billyshakes (talk) 16:32, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

This is all about hiding the lack of the success of the university. If you know some rankings where Bogazici University is ranked higher in any field, please do not hesitate to add it. Bogazici University has not been even taken into consideration by Times-QS until 2010. This does not indicate that the university is "mistreated" but just that it is not considered to be worth it. In the 2010 edition, Bogazici University has been considered and ranked #240 after a bunch of universities located in Turkey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.178.35.40 (talk) 13:04, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I find it absolutely ridiculous that "Jacksantr" consistently deletes the referenced ranking information. Is this the common attitude of the alumni of this university? No wonder it is ranked so low. I think Bogazici University's culture encourages to live isolated from the world instead of becoming integrated and competent. In the article, it is stated that the university has some connections to the US. On the other hand, anybody who has been to the US would know that competition is intense between universities and rankings are very popular (for good reason) in the US. The only way to get a good rank is to work and publish a lot as well as provide a better teaching environment without isolating from the developed countries. Bogazici University needs to learn a lot from other universities in Turkey that are ranked well, such as Istanbul Technical University and Bilkent University. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.240.35.66 (talk) 15:03, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

The rankings in the US are taken seriously only by higher education institutions that compete locally. I have seen colleges like, UT, Texas A&M constantly referring to ranks, but not so frequently Stanford or Harvard. Because, any ranking method not putting those universities at the top would only cause their credentials to be questioned. Likewise, ITU, Istanbul, Koc etc. need to promote themselves and use rankings as a mean to get something out of it, because they compete locally among themselves (isn't this called inferiority complex at individual scale, but irrelavant, isn't it, sorry). Anyhow, any method not ranking Bogazici on top of the Turkish list is questionable. People would simply laugh at that kind of a ranking method. It is why today so many new rankings schemes are being reinstated to address the local conditions within countries. I would suggest Bogazici administration to follow a similar path, and focus on the only objective criteria that would evaluate the quality of education at a university: public opinion. Unfortunately, we, all know, knowledge produced in Turkey is mostly out of translation (derivative) of foreign work (otherwise, why would the number of patents prodiced out of those thousands of articles published by ITU, Istanbul, Koc faculty be so low), so counting the number of research articles as a criterion to rank universities in Turkey is non-sense if that person is not stupid.--Corlumeh (talk) 16:07, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Misleading information under "Rankings"
There is this one user using the IPs "66.240.35.66" and "128.178.35.40" and the user ID "Wo'brian" who constantly posts misleading information under the "Rankings" section. The so-called university rankings that have been posted by this person are NOT "academic university rankings," but rather "university website popularity rankings." The only two rankings he cites that refer to the rankings of the university in general, Webometrics and 4icu, rank "university website popularity,", i.e. not their academic achievement or selectivity. That the rankings are based on website popularity means that larger universities with bigger student popuation will rank higher in general than smaller universities like Bogazici. And nowhere in the world, on any other university's ranking page, are these rankings ever mentioned as "university rankings," because of the simple reason that these are NOT "academic university rankings."

Second, the OSS rankings, the only rankings of Turkish universities, done by the Turkish Higher Education Council, are not even mentioned here, again, misleading the readers. My own edits which referred to the OSS rankings, with references, have been constantly undone by this person, reverting the article to his own version. Now, the article is "locked," and locked with HIS version being there. The article has been locked by the meta-editor "King of Hearts;" I invite you all to show your reaction and fix this issue. I myself have made all the effort to keep the article as representative as possible. I am done. I have no time to deal with a vandal all by myself, especially when the vandal is one who is being supported by a Wikipedia meta-editor. Jacksantr (talk) 05:41, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

QS rankings are one of the most highly regarded academic rankings in the world. I have checked but could not see Bogazici University in rankings that are not mentioned in the text. Also, there is no "OSS Rankings". The mentioned ranking information is a valuable information for the applicants, decision makers etc. Therefore, the ranking information should remain in the text. Further, the users using the IPs mentioned by Jacksantr posted only the QS-Ranking information (please check the history of the article). (184.75.35.50 (talk) 16:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC))

The remaining ranking information is posted by another user (193.140.194.105). This user, who is clearly a Bogazici University alumnus, deleted the ranking section. Once the section was restored, they added the rankings except the QS-Rankings. Then, QS-Ranking information was added by one of the users mentioned by Jacksantr. Trying to isolate some users would not be the best justification for anything. Moreover, if we care about the "number of supporters", I am afraid Jacksatr is isolated here (except some of the university alumni whose intention is rather promoting the university. Actually, the "information" posted by Jacksantr is totally groundless and clearly not compatible with the concept of Wikipedia. Here is an example sentence from Jacksantr:

"Boğaziçi University is often viewed as the top ranking university in Turkey, and is by far the most selective according to Turkey's University Entrance Exams (OSS)" (184.75.35.50 (talk) 16:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC))

Copyright problem removed
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Date of establishment of the university
Currently, the date of establishment of the university is written in the article as 1863. But, isn't this the date when Robert College was founded, and not the Boğaziçi University? The Robert College Yüksek division became the Boğaziçi University only in 1971. Gyte75 (talk) 19:31, 20 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I went ahead and made this change, hopefully that wasn't premature. There is also an entry for Robert College, so it doesn't make sense to list RC's founding date for BU. Allegory.of.the.blank (talk) 16:37, 20 March 2024 (UTC)