Talk:Bob Burns III

Untitled
This is MY FIRST wiki article, and it is a work in progress. Please hold on.

Bob Burns III contributions are numerous.

One Example

An article written by Burns and Tom Weaver appears in the 2001 edition of The Best American Movie Writing, an annual publication that reprints important essays on film history. It was one of 26 pieces chosen from more than 320 books.

I'm, sorry, this is going to take days. I need more than 30 seconds to write an extensive article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Kim Chi (talk • contribs) 00:10, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I have no relationship with the person who started this article, but I support the idea that Bob Burns needs a wiki page for his contributions to the industry. All I can say is to find or borrow a copy of his first book http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Kid-Memories-Bob-Burns/dp/0972858520/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279763173&sr=1-3

Just for the fact that he owns the title prop from the George Pal movie version of H.G. Wells The Time Machine should be worth a brief reprieve? That or he's mentioned on the Wiki page for the TV show The Ghost Busters?

--74.190.135.233 (talk) 01:56, 22 July 2010 (UTC)John C. Simpson

Change from CSD to BLP-PROD
A quick web search (for example, the IMdB page) indicates that this meets the "important" criteria, and thus this shouldn't be speedily deleted. The person may or may not meet notability, and it isn't sourced now. I switch to a BLP-PROD until sourcing is fixed; assuming sources are found, we can evaluate notability later.Qwyrxian (talk) 05:44, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Suggestions to improve article
I took a look at his IMdB page, and, assuming it's accurate, it appears that he may be notable enough to have his own article. I am personally comfortable saying that this does not meet the criteria for speedy deletion, as there is indication that the person is important. Please note that this is different from being notable, which is the ultimate standard we will use to judge whether or not the article should be kept. But I do believe there's enough info to say that you may be able to improve the article to full compliance.

However, I did add what is called a "sticky BLP-prod" to the article. That means that the article is currently being nominated for deletion because it is a biography of a living person (i.e., a BLP) that contains no sources. Wikipedia has a strict policy that says that all articles about living persons must be sources, otherwise the information must be removed. So, from now, you have 7 days to add reliable sources. After you do so, then we'll see if there's enough verifiable information to prove that Burns is notable. If I or other authors don't believe he is, we will nominate the article for deletion at that point, but, again, through a process that will continue to give you time to improve the article.

Finally, some specifics:
 * Owning a famous piece of memorabilia would not make someone notable (even the prop itself not be notable enough). Being famous (written up in magazine articles, either mainstream or specialty) for being a well-known collector might be.
 * Having played a small part in a movie is probably not enough to be considered notable. Being famous for being a movie monster might be--again, assuming there is documentation.
 * Being a famous historian of movies and/or special effects and/or a specific genre of movies can make him notable. Again, we need documentation.

So, the big, key thing you need to work on right now is getting sources. If you have any questions about this process or about how to proceed, please ask here and I will be glad to help. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:44, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Answers to Qwyrxian objections
With only 7 days to work on this, I am afraid that it is a bit too overwhelming for me since this is my first wiki page.


 * Being famous (written up in magazine articles, either mainstream or specialty) for being a well-known collector might be.

Bob Burns has been written up by Starlog Magazine - Starlog #18, "Hollywood Halloween", and numerous newspapers. He has a long filmography, and has appeared on Television and on DVD. Since the death of Forrest J Ackerman, he is considered to be a leading expert


 * Having played a small part in a movie is probably not enough to be considered notable. Being famous for being a movie monster might be--again, assuming there is documentation.

Bob Burns has reprised hie role as Tracy / Kogar the Gurilla in Superman vs. the Gorilla Gang (1965), Rat Pfink a Boo Boo (1966), Lemon Grove Kids Meet The Monsters (1965), Superman vs. the Gorilla Gang (1965), The Ghost Busters (1975 - 15 Episodes), Robot Monster: Special Edition (1982) (TV), King B: A Life in the Movies (1993), The Naked Monster (2005) and Dark and Stormy Night (2009)


 * Being a famous historian of movies and/or special effects and/or a specific genre of movies can make him notable. Again, we need documentation.

See book refrences in article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Kim Chi (talk • contribs) 06:11, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The Starlog article is a good start. If you can find the full reference, please add that information as a reference (if you don't know how to add a reference, you can put the info--title of mag and article, author, date of publication, publisher--here and I'll format it into the article for you.  Ideally, it should be done as an inline reference--that is, it should connect to and support a specific part of the article.
 * The books themselves don't, by themselves, help establish notability, because Burns himself wrote them.  What we need are other sources that talk about how those books and/or Burns are notable parts of the field of movie history.  Does that difference make sense?  Anyone can write a book--the question is if others in the world (or in Burns's fields) recognized that those books are important enough to be worth talking about.
 * To clarify, in the next 7 days, all you need to do is get at least 1 reliable sources--this is to ensure that BLPs are not wholly fictional. After that, you (should) have more time to keep working; Wikipedia has a saying that there is no deadline; this doesn't mean that we can allow a weak article to exist forever, but it does mean that it's fine to improve the article in stages.  Once you have a few references, I'll take a look  at editing the article itself (for example, the list of props in his "basement" is almost certainly going to get removed, as it is really not encyclopedic in importance).
 * Finally, whenever you write on a talk page (like this one), at the end of your post you should put for tildas, ( ~ ); doing so automatically "signs" your comment with your name and the time/date you added it.Qwyrxian (talk) 06:24, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, one final thing--please don't think of these as my objections. I really do believe, based on just a little web searching, that there probably is enough info out there about Burns to support his claim to notability, and write a good article about him.  I want to help you learn what kind of info that is and how to add it so that this article isn't deleted.  In general, I'm a pretty strong believer in cutting anything out of the encyclopedia that doesn't clearly meet policy; this article, though, looks like, given enough work, that it will make that policy, so I strongly encourage you to keep at it. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:27, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Leading the blind (namely me)

 * "The Starlog article is a good start." - - Qwyrxian

Does this fill the bill?

Other Starlog publications:


 * Bob Burns & Tom Weaver. Our Skull Island Odyssey. In: Starlog (New York NY), Starlog Communications, Vol. 332, March 2006, Pg. 40-44
 * Bob Burns & Tom Weaver. Our Skull Island Odyssey. In: Starlog (New York NY), Starlog Publications, Vol. 343, March 2006, Pg. 40-44

The above was about the origonal King Kong movie


 * Starlog #128 - In the Tribute pages, Star Trek art director Mike Minor is remembered by David Hutchison and Bob Burns
 * A story in Starlog Magazine by Tom Weaver and Bob Burns was voted Best Article in the 4th Rondo awards. ( Sorry, I don't know which one )

There are also other Starlog articles I can recall from memory - Thete was a full article on his production of Major Mars, and another about his Halloween extravaganzas with the help of such Star Trek Alumni as Walter Koenig and Dorothy (D.C.) Fontanna

For full references, I am going tho have to check the local libraries for the information. Due to health problems, I can't travel in this heat. ( We are having an oppressive heat wave, I am being treated for cancer - so I am too weak ). At least I know what to look for.

DVD Audio Commentary


 * The Creature from the Black Lagoon: The Legacy Collection, DVD - Audio Commentary With Film Historians Tom Weaver and Bob Burns.
 * Revenge Of The Creature – Audio Commentary with film historians Tom Weaver and Bob Burns and cast member Lori Nelson
 * The Creature Walks Among Us (1956) - Audio Commentary with film historians Tom Weaver and Bob Burns


 * "The books themselves don't, by themselves, help establish notability, because Burns himself wrote them" - Qwyrxian

In terms of Bob writing the books, it's more like a Biograophy - by Bob Burns (As Told to Tom Weaver). Does that make a difference? John Kim Chi (talk) 19:23, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Response

 * The first two Starlog articles listed don't count as reliable sources about; they prove he is an author, but don't show why he himself is notable.  Same for the DVD audio commentary.  Again, what we're looking for (for this article), is not things that Burns himself has written or recorded, but things written by others about him.  That is what will establish his notability.  The articles we need are the other Starlog ones you speak of.  Unfortunately, it does look like it's going to be easy to get them.  There's no hurry (obviously, your health is quite a bit more important than trying to improve a Wikipedia article).  It also sounds like we can probably use info from the Biography, especially since it's billed as being by Weaver, with stories told by Burns.  Do you have the biography?  I don't have it (nor do I have access to an English library), so I have no idea what information we can pull from it to add to the article.  The goal will be to find parts of the book that talk about what Burns did, as opposed to those parts where he/Baker talk about what someone else did that Burns observed.

Also, I had to remove a few of the "references" you had included. One was basically an advertisement for It Came From Bob's Basement, so it's not reliable; the others seemed to be associated with Burns' website, so, again, not reliable. I did remove the deletion prod, because we do now have at least 1 reliable source. Someone can still come and recommend the article for deletion on the grounds that the article doesn't do enough to verify that Burns is notable, but we should have more time to continue working on this. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:33, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Changes and starlog
I have to agree that shortening the title was an excellent idea, thanks btw

I happened to read a wiki article on Starlog magazine.

"On Wednesday, Dec. 5, 2007 at approximately 11 a.m. a warehouse, operated by Kable News, in Oregon, Illinois containing back issues of Starlog and Fangoria burned to the ground."

That is going to make it that much harder to find issues - any Starlog collectors out there?

The article did mention film historian Tom Weaver. Where you find Tom Weaver, you will generally find Bob Burns.

The 200th issue of Starlog may yield some useful information.

John Kim Chi (talk) 20:49, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by John Kim Chi (talk • contribs) 20:48, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Correction!

 * including Tracy the Gorilla from the 1975 movie The Ghost Busters

Incorrect - check your own wiki link. The Ghost Busters was a TV Series in 1975 (15 episodes) on CBS I watched The Ghost Busters series years ago.

The series was unrelated to the 1984 film Ghostbusters (though Columbia Pictures did pay Filmation for a license to use the name).

--John Kim Chi (talk) 04:47, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Whoops, I didn't know that; I thought there was an older movie. By the way, you are certainly allowed to make the changes directly to the article. Just be sure to leave an explanation in the edit summary (here, something like "The Ghost Busters was a television series, not a movie--see link.").  Qwyrxian (talk) 04:59, 23 July 2010 (UTC)