Talk:Bochasanwasi Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha/Archive 3

History Section - Eventual Successors
I earlier added a History section - and have divided into 3 eras: Doctrinal Origins (1799-1905) and Development, Foundation and Early Years (1905-1950) and Organizational Formation (1950-1971). The "Eventual Successors" section is written within the context of 1905-1950 era and describes events to that era. However, the anonymous editors (talk) have added contents unrelated to that era. If they wish to work on the events they like to include, they can work on it and add that section elsewhere. Please stop your disruptive editing. The events added do not go into the History section at all - so I am going to delete it. If you really want to create sections on BAPS article, don't just jump on the bandwagon when a new section is added by adding content that is out of context. Work on it. Thanks! Kapil.xerox (talk) 22:37, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Two photos of the same thing
This building has its own page & it's described in detail. Having two pictures in an article about another topic is not needed & clutters it. It is unnecessary and frankly pointless. It's understood if there was no other wiki page but there is already a written on it with many pictures. Why don't you start the Chino Hills temple page up? 141.217.233.69 (talk) 03:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * These are entirely different images in respective contexts.The infobox-image is a lead image. See WP:LEADIMAGE and serves its purpose. The other furnishes an encyclopedic need and significantly addresses the article's topic. See WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE. Multiple images belonging to the same category do not violate Wikipedia policies as long as they are serving their purpose. Go read Wikipedia policies on image use from the Manual of Style. Also, Wikipedia recommends adding an image for its media value if it serves an encyclopedic purpose. Further, the infobox is used to provide a general overview about the article and most users won't even go beyond an infobox - so don't count the infobox. Also, in mobile space, the infobox is not even shown. So an image in an infobox belongs to a different image space. If the image was not in the infobox, I would agree that it might be cluttering the article. However, these are completely different images. Thus, there is no clutter or image congestion. At this point, the article hardly has that many images to bring in this issue. Also, the image is significant as it adds value to the topic where it is being placed, namely: "Notable projects and achievements". Kapil.xerox (talk) 01:44, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Good Job at not answering the all the questions.141.217.233.69 (talk) 02:03, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Doctrine?
Do we need to state that it is a doctrine? Clearly it was not because he never instituted this policy when swaminarayan was alive. He made his son's the head and every document published from this sect mentions that so how is an interpretation a doctrine for this sect?

Swamifraud (talk) 18:43, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Desh Vibhag Lekh
The final testament of Swaminarayan known as the Desh Vibhag Lekh does not state any other successors than his sons.

Is this not the final scripture that states what the successor policy is and who they are? No where does it mention Akshar Purushottam philosophy? Does any one have dispute with this? Swamifraud (talk) 18:46, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry I am new to Wikipedia so I don't know how this works but here is my input on this matter. As you established earlier, the Desh Vibhag Lekh was the final will and testament of Swaminarayan. You had also mentioned that this document is not relevant. I have read the document. I understand that there is no talk of akshar in the entire document. This is because Swaminarayan had the responsibility of ensuring that the sect would continue on through a smooth transition after his demise. The Desh Vibhag Lekh is a legal document that is owned by the original Swaminarayan Sampraday. Because of this, there is no way that BAPS can publish that document on their website or in any case for that matter. Furthermore, the document is not considered irrelevant in the sect. The document is occasionally mentioned and explained in discourses given by the saints in the temple. This includes the history and what effects the document had on the Sampraday. I have talked to one of the saints about this matter, and they also explained to me that because it was a legal document meant for secular eyes, there would be no mention of aything spiritual including akshar, the successor and such. The document explains that Gopalanand Swami would be the head of the two regions. However, that does not imply that he would be the next spiritual successor. It would mean that he would help guide the two Acharyas into smoothly transitioning into running a Sampraday after their god had left the earth. It is true that BAPS members are not formally instructed to read this document only because BAPS is not able to formally present that document t them because it is the property of the original Swaminarayan Sampraday. The previous individual as also stated that the document is not considered important in BAPS. However as far as I have seen and heard from the discourses of the saints and the chats that i have had with members of the sect, it is not blatantly disregarded. I am not a member of any of the swaminarayan sects, just a bystander. I am exteremly sorry for the long response, but I hope that I have done this properly because I am new to this.

Bhagat's Promise
Bhagatji Maharaj was excommuncated from the Sanstha, but through the persistance of certain devotees, he was allowed back in to the fold

I believe that this needs to be added because even though shastri was kicked out after, the previous unidentified akshar also had issues with the authorities.

Also this is very important. BAPS strives on claiming that "akshar" is a imperishable everlasting entity. Only the person that does once they die. If that is the case then is this fact directly from the sect's website wrong?:

Shastriji Maharaj was still willing to stay to obey Bhagatji Maharaj's orders to remain in Vadtal by stating, "No matter if I have to die here but do not talk about seceding from this place. And Bhagatji Maharaj has promised me that even if I am cut into pieces, he will sew me together again, but I should not leave Vadtal."

HE was instructed by his predecessor to NOT leave under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!! Even death??? How does a imperishable everlasting entity going to change their mind in a different body? This is extremely important because it shows that there was always an intent to leave and create a new sect.Swamifraud (talk) 18:54, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

The beginnings of Satsang Outside of India or Global Expansion
Global Expansion is a better title for The beginnings of Satsang Outside of India Swamifraud (talk) 18:55, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Each place does not need to have a lengthy title. The name of the place where the expansion is enough.


 * I agree with User:Swamifraud that the title Global expansion with the subtitles as the respective places, would be more elegant than the current titles. I would like to see what other editors, particularly the one who posted, this feels. Sacredsea (talk) 04:40, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Please use indentation when you reply to a post - it makes it easier to read the posts. Insert any number of colons to adjust the indentation. Anyways, back to topic. I have updated the section that I posted with shorter header length. Also, I would not like to use Global Expansion for now - since it was not during this era that it had attained a significant visibility of being globally present as in a much later period - infact, it was during this era that global expansion had begun. Editors can suggest a better shorter title name besides "Global Expansion". I will see if I can update with the era which really achieved global expansion in the true sense and plan to use it there. Kapil.xerox (talk) 18:55, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Clear up of ideas
This was deleted a while ago but there are a few key points that should remain. Bases on the edit warring that has occurred here it seems that we have two different types of people disputing the way the articles should be perceived. Let's look at some of the statements:

None of the writings explicitly say that Gunatitanand Swami is the successor of the Sanstha. This 100% true. There is a difference between being akshar and being the successor. The three main successor were Swaminarayan's sons and Gopalanand swami. From baps.org website: "But before that he called Gopalanand Swami and recommended to him, “I have appointed you as a senior of both the regions." The point of this is that it needs to be stated in the BAPS article that no matter the interpretations are, there are already explicit writings to confirm who the successors are. If we are missing something let us now.

Next, Swaminarayan is a human and so pramukh swami and they are not more than humans. This is 100% true. They were conceived through intercourse just like everybody else and nothing needs to be said about that. Some people believe he may be more. There are many people who believe that others are more. "Swami Narayan was an idiot." This may not be a nice way to put it but the writer did point out an interesting fact. This so called divine figure split then-India and divided them into two sides for his sons to lead temples on, forgetting that the REST OF THE WORLD was still left. This is a true fact. There is no mention for temples around the world as I do not believe that he considered in his realm of reality that his group would be spreading further out. Maybe this can belong on the Swaminarayan page. Also it was said "Anyway, I am wondering why you do not expland the Gopalanand Swami article?" This I do not understand why users Sacredsea and Kapil.xerox do not improve this article? This man was important in both sects. The key point is that those two users have a biased towards the Gunatit swami because that's all they want to promote. I believe that they only focus on certain article for promotional edits through there tedious editing of certain topics only. I would like to invite them to add more information and make that page better. Let's work together.

Duarfimaws (talk) 05:32, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Swaminarayan ontology
This is a repeat of information. It is already on the founders website and clutters this article. Does anyone have objection to the removal of this?Swamifraud (talk) 19:00, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I would just like to point out that all of Wikipedia is a necessarily a repeat of information from reliable secondary sources. I believe that it is a good addition to the article as it clearly describes the core beliefs of this group using verifiable sources.Religious groups are based on their belief systems so that should be clearly described in an article about that religious group. Therefore, I feel that it isn't clutter, but a valuable addition. Sacredsea (talk) 04:35, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The Swaminarayan ontology, is a very significant topic in the Swaminarayan sampradaya. Historically, when Swaminarayan travelled the length and breadth of India, while asking the question as to "what are these five entities" wherever he went. As such, it establishes the foundational base for further buildup of the section in which it has been included. Thus, giving an appropriate context to the readers. As it serves a purpose, I see no reason for it being removed. It is a valuable contribution. Infact, this has been a very well researched piece that I feel the editor who posted this should also post [the whole or part of] it in other Hindu/Swaminarayan-related articles. These are my views. Kapil.xerox (talk) 19:10, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Could you clarify which sampraday you are referring? The original swaminarayan sampraday or baps? Duarfimaws (talk) 05:34, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Jaga Swami
Was jaga swami not a propagator of the philosophy? He was also on the BAPS guru pampara at one point. Why is this being removed:

Jaga Bhakta was also a leading disciple of Swami. Under instructions from Gopalanand Swami, he, too, had detached himself from everybody and had come to Junagadh to remain in the company of Gunatitanand Swami. They served according to the wishes of Swami and pleased him and became two of his foremost disciples. Through his association with Gunatitanand Swami, Bhagatji Maharaj understood that the doctrine of Akshar-Purushottam was the true doctrine propagated by Swaminarayan. Bhagatji Maharaj was excommuncated from the Sanstha, but through the persistance of certain devotees, he was allowed back in to the fold

Swamifraud (talk) 18:48, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I believe it may not be so relevant to the BAPS article. While it was clear that the gurus played important roles in the history of the group, there are many other leading devotees through the history of this group -- to begin to mention all of them may not be appropriate in this article. Perhaps a separate article may be in order if considered notable enough. I don't know of any evidence that Jaga Bhakta was in the BAPS guru parampara. I have not seen such information in Williams or Kim or other scholarly sources. That may also be a reason why it was/should be removed. Sacredsea (talk) 16:47, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Your statement shows that you are a relatively young BAPS member. Before pramukh was added to the guru pampara, jaga swami was included along with gopalanand swami. Later after pramukh was added, both swami's remained but in a different order. Later, Jaga swami was completely removed from the pampara. In 1995, baps stopped producing gopalanand swami images as well and completely removed him from any future productions. I will upload the line up pics of all stages and the current stage. This is VERY important to have because baps is based on successors and if people are removed it should be noted why. I will add to the article as well. Also, please use indentation when you reply to a post - it makes it easier to read the posts as Kapil.xerox has stated. Tt makes it easier to read the posts.

Duarfimaws (talk) 05:47, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Scriptural Renditions
Removed: "BAPS renditions of many fundamental scriptures and Shloka's differ from the..." since it violates Wikipedia's no original research policy - specifically it clearly violates WP:No_original_research Kapil.xerox (talk) 03:10, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Women
No women are trustees of the religion nor do they serve on any managing committees of the major temples. Women are required to sit on one side of the temple or at the back behind the men and are not allowed to speak in front of a group of men or even before a mixed gender congregation. Women are also not allowed in the temple while they are menstruating.

Is there any issue with this? The citation is there but just needs to be corrected in terms of the format? It can be in a women section or criticism section. Move it if you want and can justify why.

Swamifraud (talk) 19:14, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * User:Swamifraud your first reference (Williams pg 186) contains no mention of women. Hence According  to WP:Verifiability, ‘the citation must clearly support the material as presented in the article’. Since this is not the case the removal of the edit is warranted. Furthermore, as User:Sacredsea and  User:Anastomoses have previously pointed out, the citations show no indication of controversy and should not be included under a controversy section since this would violate WP:NOR and may also violate WP:NPOV. Rooneywayne17 (talk) 13:54, 10 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Rooneywayne17 is truly a bad person. Instead of trying to find the right page, he deletes important work. I am calling on any administrator to block thiis scumbag. He has no intention  of improving articles. Just promoting his cult in a positive way. What a total waste. 70.141.72.17 (talk) 14:16, 10 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Wow looks like the page number for the source was flipped. Rooney wayne is garbage for removing that instead of correcting that. How much of a low life are you would rather delete information rather than make sure it's valid just because its critical of your org. People like you ruin wiki. Vandals like you deserve to be blocked. I am going to make sure to check your edits. Hopefully this shows people reading the brain washing by cults and how it makes people do things that are manipulative. Duarfimaws (talk) 14:27, 10 August 2013 (UTC)


 * In reference to the edit:

'Women are required to sit on one side of the temple or at the back behind the men and are not allowed to speak in front of a group of men or even before a mixed gender congregation.'


 * User:Swamifraud is inappropriately engaging in WP:Cherrypicking. The user has misrepresented the content in 'The Development of an American Hinduism' in order to present a biased point of view. Instead, the author of the text presents a clearer context for gender separation. This includes the sadhus' vow of celibacy and their presence in the congregation as a determining factor. User:Swamifraud fallaciously presents this topic and as a result, is inappropriately trying to equate gender separation with the marginalization of women. I am removing this edit and I encourage further discussion. Actionjackson09 (talk) 01:42, 11 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I appreciate all the editor's participation in the talk page discussion with regards to the issues pertaining to this article. However, please note, that when replying to post, indent your post by inserting an adjustable number of colon(s)":" before you type your post.
 * I agree, Rooneywayne17 should have tried looking up for the page number and fixed the issue. However, if I am not mistaken, I had warned one of these users that for controversial text wherever proper full citations was not given, it may run the risk of immediate removal. Also, User:Duarfimaws and User:70.141.72.17, please desist from making personal attacks to editors. Since, it does not help in the long term work of this article and detracts from the collaborative culture . Refrain from using non-neutral language.
 * I have removed the following text: "No women are trustees of the religion nor do they serve on any managing committees of the major temples. Women are also not allowed in the temple while they are menstruating." Since, the source from which it is being cited does not establish controversy - as mentioned by 3 other editers: Rooneywayne17, User:Sacredsea and User:Anastomoses. There are no issues with the text being cited. We can move the text to some other section where it makes sense. Please share your take on this. Kapil.xerox (talk) 03:51, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Swaminarayan Sampraday
Followers of the Swaminarayan Sampraday do not accept this interpretation. They accept the instructions of Swaminarayan who formally adopted a son from his brothers and appointed them to the office of Acharya for the Ahmedabad Gadi and Vadtal Gadi. This was done so that they would maintain a direct line of blood descent from his family. It is stated in scriptures established by Swaminarayan primarily through the Desh Vibhag Lekh, with further instructions in the Shikshapatri, Vachanamrut and Satsangi Jeevan.

Is there a problem with this? This all can be in cited within wiki. Swamifraud (talk) 18:44, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Can you clarify below the argument that you are trying to make that you would like to include [and why should it be included and in what specific section] in this article with complete citation. Thanks Kapil.xerox (talk) 18:40, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Next, "Have you (BAPS members) ever actually read the Desh Vibhag Lekh?"

Generally BAPS members do not read this document. They are not instructed to read this as a core scripture and searching the entire baps.org, this document, the final will of swaminarayan is not considered important in the BAPS sect because the information in it does not mention anything about Gunatitanand Swami but rather clearly and explicitly it states that his two adopted sons are the only two successors of the Swaminarayan Sampraday and mentions nothing about akshar. The mention of this document should take place in the baps page to let readers know that there is already a written doctrine in place that has Swaminarayans Sons as the leaders. The interpretation is what baps is about not what was actually written and that is the argument.

Duarfimaws (talk) 05:49, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry I am new to Wikipedia so I don't know how this works but here is my input on this matter. As you established earlier, the Desh Vibhag Lekh was the final will and testament of Swaminarayan. You had also mentioned that this document is not relevant. I have read the document. I understand that there is no talk of akshar in the entire document. This is because Swaminarayan had the responsibility of ensuring that the sect would continue on through a smooth transition after his demise. The Desh Vibhag Lekh is a legal document that is owned by the original Swaminarayan Sampraday. Because of this, there is no way that BAPS can publish that document on their website or in any case for that matter. Furthermore, the document is not considered irrelevant in the sect. The document is occasionally mentioned and explained in discourses given by the saints in the temple. This includes the history and what effects the document had on the Sampraday. I have talked to one of the saints about this matter, and they also explained to me that because it was a legal document meant for secular eyes, there would be no mention of aything spiritual including akshar, the successor and such. The document explains that Gopalanand Swami would be the head of the two regions. However, that does not imply that he would be the next spiritual successor. It would mean that he would help guide the two Acharyas into smoothly transitioning into running a Sampraday after their god had left the earth. It is true that BAPS members are not formally instructed to read this document only because BAPS is not able to formally present that document t them because it is the property of the original Swaminarayan Sampraday. The previous individual as also stated that the document is not considered important in BAPS. However as far as I have seen and heard from the discourses of the saints and the chats that i have had with members of the sect, it is not blatantly disregarded. I am not a member of any of the swaminarayan sects, just a bystander. I am exteremly sorry for the long response, but I hope that I have done this properly because I am new to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92qwerty925 (talk • contribs) 02:00, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Delete Title Section
I am deleting the "Title" section in this article for two main reasons: One - Wikipedia requires all information to be citable to sources. When information is unsourced, and it is doubtful any sources are available for the information, it can be boldly removed. See WP:USI. Two - most of the information given in the section is inaccurate beyond reasonable doubt and as such should be immediately removed. See WP:IAI. The article already has content that clearly explains the title, hence this section appears redundant. Nonetheless, if there is an editor who still feels that this section should be kept, I suggest we can continue the discussion here and reach consensus. Meanwhile they can continue to work on the section in their user page while furnishing references for the many dubious statements made here. Thanks Kapil.xerox (talk) 03:02, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Allegation Edits violate BLPCRIME
The recent edits by User:Priyadswami violates WP:BLPCRIME and thus deleted. This is the same user who had earlier been blocked (as User:Duarfimaws, User:Swamifraud and their related sock-puppets). WP:REALNAME The user name also violates WP:REALNAME as it is identifiable to Priyadarshan Swami. Kapil.xerox (talk) 13:40, 24 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I will be changing my name as soon as possible as I was unaware of the WP:REALNAME policy. Your accusation of me being the same user who had earlier been blocked (as User:Duarfimaws, User:Swamifraud and their related sock-puppets) is your wrong and your opinion. I read the policy of WP:BLPCRIMEand it says "For people who are relatively unknown, editors must give serious consideration to not including material in any article suggesting that the person has committed, or is accused of committing, a crime unless a conviction is secured." Pramukh swami is a world renounced guru with tens of millions of followers and and BAPS has thousands of centers and temples. This information is crucial and BAPS responded on their site. You are violating WP:Editwarring, WP:Ownershipofarticles, and WP:Consensus.Priyadswami (talk) 17:34, 24 October 2013 (UTC)


 * They said no problem found so I don't need to change my username. Priyadswami (talk) 17:34, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree with User:Kapil.xerox that for a biography of living persons, such serious allegations should be given serious consideration by editors not to include it until conviction. For the issue about "relatively unknown" I would assert, that is relative. Outside of the state of Gujarat, Pramukh Swami is relatively unknown. To say it another way, for Enlgish wikipedia users, Pramukh Swami is relatively unknown. Thus, WP:BLPCRIME should apply. That argument, of course, is open to debate, and I would like to see what other editors think about this. Also, I did a cursory fact check on Priyadswami's addition to the article that was either incorrectly cited or incorrectly quoted. So, if a consensus of editors do feel that this should go into the article, then I think we need to make sure that it is correct before putting it up. Would love to hear what others think. Sacredsea (talk) 17:59, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Remove the word bhagwan
Is there a reason why 'bhagwan' is used as a prefix in front of swaminarayan? This is not necessary for a person who is interpreted by few to be a deity. Please discuss and if not, then I will be doing a search and replace.Swamiblue (talk) 07:24, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * As far as a I tell, bhagwan is an honorific and should be removed. --Neil N  talk to me 14:05, 16 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree, the honorific should be removed. Re the Sardar sarovar dam project, it has been mentioned earlier in article, so I am removing the repeated information. Anastomoses (talk) 14:37, 16 October 2014 (UTC)rree

I agree strongly hinduism does not revere living or deceased priests