Talk:Bog turtle/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Greetings AP Biology 2009 students! It will be my pleasure to do this review, as I fully support these types of educational liaisons with Wikipedia. Normally when I review, I copyedit and fix the minor details myself as I go along; in this case—for maximum educational value—I'll post all the mistakes I see and let you guys fix them... so expect to see a lot of nitpicks. Comments will be up in a day or two. Sasata (talk) 16:20, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Some initial comments to get you started:

Lead
 * ✅About citation in the lead. Check out the relevant passage in WP:Lead. Personally, I don't think that there's anything in here that needs to be recited if it's already cited in the main body of the article. Is all of the lead info in the article? Checking...
 * ✅"The bog turtle (Glyptemys muhlenbergii) is a turtle that is endemic to the eastern United States." Sort of... the section on distribution and habitat doesn't specifically say the word "endemic" (although it is generally implied), so that should be included in there.
 * ✅"It is the only turtle protected under the Federal Endangered Species Act[4] and is considered threatened at the federal level and endangered in some states.[5][6][7][8][9]". The "Threats" section only says "U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has listed it as threatened since 1997", so there's specific information in the lead not in the article, which needs to be rectified. I suggest keeping the lead sentence as is (but wikilink threatened and endangered as they have specific meanings) but remove the citations down to the appropriate section, with a bit more explanation, e.g., in what states is it endangered?
 * ✅"It is the smallest species of turtle in North America[10] [11][9][4][12] (and one of the smallest in the world)." This is not in the article body, but needs to be. When it goes there, the refs can be moved down as well.
 * ✅"To the untrained eye, the bog turtle looks similar to the Painted turtle and the Spotted turtle[13] because all three have similar patterns on their skin." Not in the article.
 * ✅"Due in part to its small size and unique characteristics, it is often in high demand in the black market pet trade.[8][2]" Not in the article.
 * ✅"The Bronx Zoo was the first place to sucessfully breed bog turtles in captivity and has been doing so since 1973.[14]" The Zoo is mentioned in the article, but not this specific fact.

So to summarize, please read WP:Lead for guidance, and ensure that all of the lead information gets moved into the article text. Then these citations can be moved as well.

Description
 * "The bog turtle weighs approximately 4 ounces (110 g) when fully grown." Male or female? Apparently males and females are different sizes, so one might expect different weights as well.
 * ✅"Bog turtles are dark in color with an orange-red wash on the inside of the legs of some individuals." What part is dark in color? Undersides? Shell? Is "dark" a color? The previous sentence said the heads were a dark brown that matched the shell.
 * ✅"The carapace is domed and rectangular" I think it might be better to say "roughly rectangular", or "rectangular with rounded corners"
 * I think the terms refer to different dimensions; "domed" is vertical, higher in the centre; "rectangular" is horizontal, the silhouette you would see if looking from a distance and straight down from above. --Ettrig (talk) 05:45, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Taxonomy Distribution and habitat
 * ✅"...often with prominent rings on the scutes" Scutes is not a common word, so to prevent a reader from having to click another another article to understand this, write something like "...often with prominent rings on the bony external plates (scutes)." Same deal with "plastron" in a couple of sentences.
 * ✅link chestnut
 * ✅The plastron sentence is unreferenced.
 * ✅"Sexual Dimorphism" Headings and subheadings should be in "sentences case", i.e., only the first word should be capitalized unless there's a proper noun in there. Same applies for the other examples in the article.
 * Any idea if the taxobox image depicts a male or female?
 * What year did Gotthilf describe the turtle? The section mentions the name was changed. What was it called originally?
 * "In 1801, the bog turtle was named Clemmys muhlenbergii, or Muhlenberg's tortoise, in honor of Muhlenberg.[6] However, the species' common name was changed to bog turtle in 1956." Currently the genus name is Glyptemys, not Clemmys... when was it transferred, and why? What was the common name before it was known as bog turtle?
 * ✅wikilink colony (biology), Calcareous, seep (hydrology). What's a beaver complex?
 * ✅"Bog turtles utilize soft, deep mud for its shelter" utilize->use; remove "its"
 * ✅"Spring seeps and groundwater springs provide optimum locations for hibernation during winter." Why isn't this mentioned in the section on hibernation?
 * ✅"Also, the prefered habitat size" prefered-> preferred (because accent is on last syllable)
 * ✅"averaging only about 1.28 hectares" remove "only", as it is a value judgment. Also, make sure there's no extra space between ending punctuation and the citation.
 * ✅"trees shrubs such as Willows, red maples, and alders" Willows doesn't need capitalization
 * ✅link canopy (biology)
 * ✅third paragraph needs a reference
 * ✅"Unfortunately, erosion and runoff of nutrients" Remove unfortunately (value judgment)
 * ✅" Human-stimulated successions have engendered the eradication" Underlined part sounds somewhat awkward
 * ✅"It is the bigger of the two but the bog turtles" vague... what is the bigger of the two what? "They live at low altitudes" Clarify "they", are we still talking about the "northern community"? In general, I think this subsection could be beefed up a little, and divided into two paragraphs for clarity. For example, source #12 mentions that the northern populations live close to bodies of water, in contrast to the southern population.

Behavior
 * ✅"The bog turtle is active exclusively during the daytime." Cited source days not say this.
 * ✅"...their activities include scavanging" spelling
 * ✅"The temperature that the bog works to achieve when basking is usually 84 to 94 degrees" awkward sentence construction: bog turtle (not bog),and it sounds odd that a turtle "works to achieve" something
 * ✅"densly rooted vegitation" typos
 * ✅"The bog turtle may perform all four movements in one day: traveling to eat food, reproduce with another individual, take in the sun, and burrow from a predator." Is this sentence necessary? Can it be combined with the last sentence which has essentially the same information? Overall, the whole section is poorly written and needs a good copyedit. Can you solicit the help of a copyeditor? Malleus Fatuorum is highly respected in this area, and might be willing to help (he did some work on the Pudu article). However, it would probably be best to wait until we have the content details hammered out before asking for a copyedit. Ok, that's all from me for today, I'll revisit this GAN tomorrow. Sasata (talk) 18:54, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, I think I caught everyting down to "link chestnut," although am still working on finding the difference in wieght between genders. Also, can you check over my revisions in the lead and addition of information (and sources) in the article. Thank you.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 15:45, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Sasata, I think I fixed everything mentioned in the Behavior and the Distribution and habitat sections.--Merry Beth (talk) 21:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Should the Taxobox image inform the reader if it shows a male or female (I looked at several other turtle articles and theirs didn't mention sex)?--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 21:29, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If the information is available, then by all means include it. Sasata (talk) 06:28, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, all of my sources and research says that bog turtles in general weigh 4 ounces. I know this excuse is unacceptable however I don't want to put any information in the article that I am unsure of or have no proof of.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 21:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, have to stick with the sources. Sasata (talk) 06:28, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I tried in find some more specifics in the taxonomy section, but i could only get that Gotthilf found it in the 18th century and it didnt give it at name until 1801. The way the source is worded, it seems to me that Clemmys Muhlenburgii was used as it s common name up until 1956 (people just didnt like to use the names of discoverers in the common name). As far as the change from Clemmys to Glyptemys it was in order to group the Clemmys ( just the bog turtle and spotted turtle) with the rest of the wood/swamp turtles (Glyptemys) but the only place that i can find this is in a wikipedia stub that references some volume book which i can try to get a hold of but i doubt i will have much luck (I cant just trust their reference can I?) Thank you for all of your assistance --OomnyMalchick (talk) 11:34, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Continuing... "Threats'
 * ✅I'm not a fan of the multiple citations appended to the first two sentences of this section. Are they all necessary? I'd like to see a list of the states in which the species is considered endangered, then, if desired, you could add a specific citation after each listed state. As for the smallest in North America America, just go with what you consider the top 1 or 2 most reliable sources and use those.
 * ✅"In addition to natural threats the turtles are also susceptible to man made threats and invasive plants." comman after natural threats; man-made should be hyphenated (later as well); link invasive plants; U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service; pesticide, runoff industrial discharge

Reproduction
 * ✅wlink nesting; is sedge tussock the same as tussock sedge (Carex stricta)?; clutch
 * ✅"...average around 3 cm in length." give imperial conversion
 * ✅"In colder climates, however, eggs may incubate all winter and hatch in the spring when there is a more substantial food supply." The way the sentence is phrased makes it sound like the turtle embryo waits in the shell until there's more food, but I I don't thin the embryo knows what's going on outside. Isn't the hatching temperature-dependent?
 * ✅"Within the first years of development, the turtles have a tendency to grow at a rapid rate." Can this be quantified?
 * ✅wlink sexual maturity
 * ✅"Bog turtles have a higher life expectancy in captivity some of the oldest known are currently in The Bronx Zoo's on-display population;" run-on sentence

I was not able to find information that quantifies the growth rate of the bog turtles, should I remove the sentence "Within the first years of development, the turtles have a tendency to grow at a rapid rate." ? --Merry Beth (talk) 21:56, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I asked because it seems to be rather obvious that a young creature will grow fast, and was wondering if there were some actual values (like a % increase in carapace length) that could be used to justify the sentences inclusion. If not, I would leave it out. Sasata (talk) 06:58, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok thanks --Merry Beth (talk) 16:53, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, that was phase one. Late tomorrow I will reread the article, this time carefully checking your citations and making sure that what is said here matches your sources. I will also perform my own literature review and determine if the coverage is lacking, and what sections might needs to be expanded or enhanced. The prose still needs work as well, and I'll offer more suggestions for improvement on the second iteration. Please let me know if your group intends to pursue FAC, and if so, what the class deadline is; a FAC should be submitted a minimum of 3 weeks before this deadline. I can help out with finding scholarly sources if you intend to go this route. Later, Sasata (talk) 06:28, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, sounds capital.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 19:58, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Sasata! I'm having a reference malfunction, something's wrong with #21 and I don't know what it is, can you help?--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 20:33, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You haven't defined a reference named copeyon yet. I'm guessing that somewhere in a cut and paste move you lost the ref that said . You can probably find it in the history somewhere... nevermind, already fixed :) Sasata (talk) 21:37, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments on sources and citations Sasata (talk) 17:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC) (more later...)
 * ✅I'm dubious about source #1 (Mind Bog-A-Ling) being used to cite the weight... how can we trust them if they can't even spell the Latin binomial correctly? Best to just remove it, as it is covered in cite #2 (a RS)
 * ✅"The carapace is domed and roughly rectangular in shape, often with prominent rings on their rough scales or scutes.[7]" is just a little bit too close to the source "The carapace (upper shell) is domed and somewhat rectangular, often with prominent rings on the shell plates (scutes)." Please rephrase
 * ✅source #3 (Bloomer 2004/1970) includes a number of other common names for the bog turtle, should include these in the article
 * The repeated Bloomer citations (i.e., current refs 3, 6, 15) should be condensed
 * ✅"The full-grown male bog turtle is 3 to 4 inches (7.6 to 10 cm) in length, while the females are 4 to 5 inches (10 to 13 cm).[3][12]" Please check your sources again, this is not what source 12 claims ("The bog turtle reaches an adult length of only four to five inches", not specifying females), while source 3 says 94 mm for males and 89 mm for females.
 * The taxonomy section should mention the phylogenetic analyses that resulted in the reorganization of the genus Clemmys, and the creation of the new genus Glyptemys (along with citations to those journal articles)


 * Alright, I provided more specificity as to where the bog turtle is endangered and threatened (in the beginning of the "threats" section). I included some of the other common names from the "Bloomer" source and took out the over-extensive references throughout the article.  I linked to the pages asked for and generalized the statement regarding length (to show that the numbers given are flexible).  I reworded the information on carapace and scutes to make it less like the source's wording.  I am still working and tweaking things.  Keep the corrections coming!--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 20:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

(continued) Ok, that completes phase 2. Let me know when you have dealt with all the above, and I'll come back for a final read-through & copyedit. Sasata (talk) 06:58, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅re: distribution - In the absence of a distribution map (which would be really helpful by the way), give the reader a better sense of the extremes of the turtle's range. Eg. rather than just listing the states, say something like...the turtle's range extends north from New York (or wherever it is), and includes blah, blah, and blah, south to Florida (or wherever)
 * ✅Mention the geographical distance between northern and southern populations (see ref #18)
 * ✅"Small differences in climate that result from the varied humidity aid in the incubation of eggs and thermoregulation." source?
 * ✅last sentence of 1st para of "Distribution and habitat" says essentially the same as the last sentence of the third paragraph, should reduce them to one.
 * ✅"...but live at higher altitudes, anywhere up to 4,000 feet (1,200 m)."
 * ✅"This makes them very difficult to locate and to estimate their population." -> "This makes it difficult to locate them and estimate their population."
 * ✅Not convinced about the reliability of the reptilechannel.com website as a reliable source - it is a hobby site for pet owners. Could you find other sources for those two sentences cited to this?
 * ✅"Their only defense when threatened by a predator is to bury themselves in mud and hide." Not quite what the source says... it doesn't claim that it's the "only defense", just that it does this.'
 * ✅"These communities number up to twelve turtles," don't think community is the right word here, especially since earlier the article talked about communities of northern and southern populations... how about "groups"?
 * ✅"Turtles, like most other reptiles, move for four reasons: feeding, mating," I think by now most readers will know the meaning of reptile, feeding, and mating, so don't need to link these
 * ✅"The bog turtle may perform all four movements in one day: traveling to eat food, reproduce with another individual, take in the sun, and burrow from a predator." Apart from the fact that the sentence is ungrammatical, I'm not convinced it's necessary (seems pretty obvious), and I can't see it explicitly mentioned in the cited link.
 * ✅"They may do this because their former area no longer sustained enough food" -> "former habitat no longer sustains"
 * ✅"...an inadequate amount of sunlight reached them" -> reaches
 * ✅last sentence of "Movement" subsection needs a citation
 * ✅last sentence of 1st paragraph in "Threats" is uncited
 * I think another reason invasive plants are bad for the turtle is they grow tall and cut off the turtle's sun supply, should put that in there (if a source can be found)
 * ✅dump the other citation to Mind Bog-A-Ling (about being omnivorous), it's covered in the next (Bloomer) citation
 * ✅The Bloomer citation goes into much more detail about the courtship ritual; I think this article should have a least a small paragraph's worth of coverage on this interesting facet of turtle behavior.
 * Refs: make sure all instances of the Latin name are italicized (or unitalicized, if the article title itself is italicized); double check the sources and see if you can add any more author names and date written to the citations (e.g. ref #9 gives Harding, J, 2002 at the bottom of the page)


 * In the introduction I gave the extremes of the places where they are found, and I am about to put in the information about the gap in populations. Also, I will put in the fact about the invasive plants and give more references.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 15:19, 12 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I added some several important things to the reproduction section, took out some links in the first movement sentence, and removed the mind bogaling reference. I will continue to edit throughout today.  Thank you very much.--76.0.143.27 (talk) 15:47, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe to make it easier for both of us to keep track of things, add ✅ or something after or under each line above so both you and I know if you've addressed a particular point. Talk to ya later, Sasata (talk) 15:50, 12 December 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, THANK YOU, I didn't know how to check things. I will put a check to the left of the things corrected and will inform my group members to do the same.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 22:54, 12 December 2009 (UTC)


 * That should just about do it except for the several we cannot find/do/convince our partner of doing. This includes: the difference in weight, the change in name, (thought we already included the plants being too tall), and the things tthat our partner needs to do in the taxonomy section.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by NYMFan69-86 (talk • contribs) 12:47, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

3rd (and final) pass through:
 * Please check the lead again for spelling errors, and prematurely terminated sentences. There is still more detail about the illegal pet trade in the lead than in the article body... could you try to expand this to at least 2 or three sentences in the article? Sasata (talk) 15:55, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I've added a couple of sentences in the taxonomy section and did a light copyedit of the article. Check my changes and make sure you agree with them. I think we're just about there.... just switch the last remaining Bog-a-ling citation for something more reliable. Sasata (talk) 16:46, 16 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I definately approve of your corrections. I added some more about the illegal collection of bog turtles (and cited it) in the threats section.  I also replaced the other bog-a-ling reference with another one.  Is there anything else you can catch?--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 01:02, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I think that's good enough. You guys have done a great job responding to my suggestions, and I'm happy to promote the article to GA. Congratulations, and thanks all for your contribution to Wikipedia! Sasata (talk) 15:20, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * GA review (see here for criteria)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * I have verified most of the cited statements against the original sources. Sources are reliable.
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * Coverage is broad, and consistent with other GA-quality species articles.
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * All images are public domain or have appropriate free-use licenses.
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail: