Talk:Bogan/Archive 2

Merge article "Things Bogans Like" into this article
The article Things bogans like is about a blog regarding bogans and does not contain other substance. By itself it also lacks notablitliy and could become a deletion candidate.AlexGWU (talk) 04:12, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The Things bogans like article should be deleted. It is not really even of use as a reference for bogan article, being a blog. Format (talk) 05:48, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

"Things Bogans Like" is too subjective and not sufficiently descriptive or analytical. It is also a meeting point for a hate group -- anti bogans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ulysses elias (talk • contribs) 22:38, 23 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I will remove the 'merge suggestion' templates from the two articles since it doesn't look like we want to merge them. The possible deletions of the "Things Bogans Like" article can be dealt with separately. Barrylb (talk) 07:49, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

For Japanese, the approximate is actually ヤンキー "Yankee" and not "Inakamono." No one uses "inakamono" (country people) in Japanese 71.75.228.208 (talk) 21:09, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

"Cashed up bogan" = "nouveau riche"
The expression "cashed up bogan" is used in much the same sense as the older "nouveau riche", or "new money". Like these other terms, it can be used neutrally, but often carries intentionally disparaging connotations.

The relationship between the terms seems obvious, so I'm tempted to add a link to the nouveau riche article. I wouldn't, however, be so presumptuous to make such a change without a good supporting reference... which I haven't been able to find.

Could anyone skilled at finding good references lend a hand? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.79.32.130 (talk) 01:40, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * You can be nouveau riche without being a cashed up bogan. A cashed up bogan is a subset of the nouveau riche. But also a cashed up bogan may just be someone with an above average income who wouldn't otherwise qualify as "rich". 121.73.7.84 (talk) 10:53, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

New Zealand's 38th prime minister John Key would be an example of a cashed-up bogan, esp. because of the way he speaks. 121.73.7.84 (talk) 10:58, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Bogan in a Regional Victorian Context
Perhaps even this article is outdated by the morphing of the term. In regional Victoria, where I study, "bogan" refers to a summary of the country Australian accent, rural culture and a certain code of dress as opposed to the Melbournian definition which includes a negative stereotype usually involving cigarettes or drugs, denigrating activity and unemployment. Many Melbournians are amazed at the positive use of the term in other areas of Victoria. Here, at least, "bogan" seems to have replaced the word "ocka", and spoken with a positive spin. There is also a tendency to describe others on a spectrum between "Bogan" and "Posh", which describes British-leaning culture and "high cultural" thought. While residents of the "Big Five" cities tend to marginalise non-metropolitan residents as "bogan", the "bogans" themselves take on the term in a positive light while describing Big Fivers as ignorant, imperialistic, snobbish, arrogant and centralist.

In summary, where I study boganness is thought of as the epitome of rurality rather than the description of the undesirable suburbanite. This change can likely be traced back to the early years of this century when activists began to celebrate the term through public display. If the position described in this article is current, it almost exclusively adheres to the Big Five point of view and needs to be updated to include a section on rurality and positive identity which includes the point of view of regional Australians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anonimasu (talk • contribs) 07:02, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunatley as you describe it above, boganism also takes on a similar status in WA but until there are reliable sources describing this its just original research and we cant include. Gnangarra 07:09, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Etymology
Does anyone know anything about the etymology of the word. Is it of Gaelic origin?

yes I do ... the reason you haven't been able to find its origins is because (it seems) not even Macquarie Dictionary thought to ask anyone who actually lives where the term comes from ... but it is also because it is not actually a word, it is an ACRONYM ... the term comes from Victoria Australia, specifically Melbourne, and it means "Boys Of Greensborough And Northern Suburbs", whom during the 1970s & more so the 80s particularly, were known for extremely poor taste in clothes (including acid-wash jeans, moccasins, and navy blue singlets or flannel shirts), while also sporting haircuts such as the "mullet" style (often with a "rats tail" - which was a small plaited tail coming out from under the very back of the rest of the hair), and would universally own cars such as the Holden Monaro or Torana, which would have oversized engines & large exhausts to make them louder ... the Greensborough pub in those days was a pretty rough place where there were frequent fights ... and so soon the term migrated to other nearby areas where similar people could be found, including most notably the city of Ballarat 1-2 hours to the west of Melbourne, and some of the other rougher suburbs ... and since these people were typically working class, the term became a derogatory one used to belittle them whether or not they were personally guilty of anything worthy of criticism, but merely because of how they dressed etc ... so it then morphed further to be an insult against someone's intelligence ... so there is no actual singular of the word BOGAN, because it is not a word ... but because the last letter of the acronym is an S, it naturally evolved a singular form being bogan. I lived in Ballarat & Greensborough & many other places so this is just common knowledge to many of us, but it always surprises me how many people do not actually know this ... but I am 42 now, so perhaps that memory has been lost, and many younger people never knew that was the origin. I haven't made any actual edits to the page, just my comments here, I am guessing someone will look at this & make the change on the actual information page (?) Tarose.trevor (talk) 05:47, 5 December 2013 (UTC) [USER: tarose.trevor|(Trevor Rose)][DATE: Dec 5th 2013][TIME: 5:35am]

Perhaps this is better written though (which I just did for Facebook) >> the term "bogan" came about as a singular version of what was not in fact a plural word, but an ACRONYM "bogans", meaning "Boys Of Greensborough And Northern Suburbs", so therefore, BOGANS needed a "BOGAN" because it sounded plural even though it wasn't ... and the reason the term came about was because of the people whom were known to be in the northern suburbs of Melbourne, who had mullet haircuts (often with a "rat's tail"), and would wear acid-wash jeans, flannel shirts (&/or navy blue singlets, sometimes band t-shirts), moccasins ... and of course drive done up Holden Toranas & Monaros with big engines, exhausts, & wide tyres ... the term quickly spread to referring to similar people from Footscray & Ballarat ... and then subsequently became a derogatory term (a bit of an elitist jab at their fashion sense, social graces, and by implication their intellect) ... and I was one of them  LOL ... I even had a white leather jacket & skinny white leather tie for when I went out, trying to look like the guys from Duran Duran or Pseudo Echo Tarose.trevor (talk) 06:02, 5 December 2013 (UTC) Tarose.trevor (talk) 05:47, 5 December 2013 (UTC) [USER: tarose.trevor|(Trevor Rose)][DATE: Dec 5th 2013][TIME: 6:01am]

I added some info about real place with "Bogan" in their name. Not necessarily helpful with etymology but at least it provides clues to the origin of the term. Andrew Kay 00:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe the word bogan was originally a term of disdain for a particular stereotype in the UK at one time, although I can't remember where I saw the reference. To me it is highly likely that the term possibly migrated here, and was used here in connection with people who displayed similar characteristics.
 * Petrus4 11:22, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Seems like a stretch i know, but is it possible it has something to do with the south american english term for a beanie (see Tuque), a boggan?

I just heard a great program on ABC Radio National about the appropriation of indigenous Aboriginal words in Australian English. One of the examples used was Bogan, which derives from North Western NSW Aboriginal languages. See the ABC RN Lingua Franca program site for info: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/linguafranca/stories/2008/2325921.htm 121.219.74.89 (talk) 06:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I just finished reading Skywalking: The Life and Films of George Lucas. In the book, author David Pollock mentions that the term, Bogan, was used by George Lucas in his second draft of the original Star Wars screenplay, to depict the 'dark side' of the Force. I have found links for the second screenplay, and the term is indeed referenced heavily throughout: "As you know, "THE FORCE OF OTHERS" has two halves: Ashla, the good, and Bogan, the paraforce - the dark or evil side. Fortunately, Skywalker came to know the good half and was able to resist the paraforce; but he realized that if he taught others the way of the Ashla, some, with less strength, might come to know Bogan, the dark side, and bring unthinkable suffering to the Universe." -Adventures of the Starkiller, Episode One of the Star Wars I think this is a noteworthy contribution toward properly appreciating the etymology of the term, and its galactic implications --MikeAa (talk) 06:14, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * That the word appeared in an unpublished script has nothing to do with the term's usage as Australian slang; it didn't inspire the slang, and (I assume) Lucas wasn't inspired by it, he was just making up funny words. It's just a meaningless coincidence. --McGeddon (talk) 09:51, 7 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Etymology is the study of the history of words, their origins, and how their form and meaning have changed over time. Folk etymology is the sound, spelling and meaning of a word which is changed by the influences of cultures. While I appreciate that there is no evidence that the screenplay reference directly inspired the subsequent incarnation in the Australian lexicon, I contend that there is nonetheless cultural currency in its inclusion in this article.


 * If it is a case of coincidental coinage at different times, then the reference in the 1975 Star Wars draft is relevant temporally, as it seems to predate the contemporary Australian use (i.e. 'how their form and meaning have changed over time'). If it was a case of coincidental coinage across cultures, then it is relevant on the grounds of comparative Folk etymology (i.e. 'meaning of a word which is changed by the influence of cultures'). There is no doubt that George Lucas' Star Wars has been influential in popular culture, and since his use of the term 'Bogan' was also in a pejorative sense (being the draft name he attributed to the 'dark side', a defining theme of the eventual movie franchise), I contend that the consistencies of meaning between the two usages are more substantive than merely coincidental.--MikeAa (talk) 11:04, 7 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Sure, it definitely feels like the "bog-" prefix has a pejorative aura to it (with connections to bogle and boggart), and it's likely that Lucas was drawing on this, but it's not up to Wikipedia editors to put forward their own etymological theories - Wikipedia has very strong policies against original research. If you can find a source that's already written about how the Star Wars script edit relates to the Australian slang (maybe Lucas dropped it because of the Australian connotations), then that's great and we should quote it, but without a source we only have your personal contention that it's more than a coincidence, which isn't enough for an encyclopaedia. --McGeddon (talk) 11:30, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if Bogan could be relative to the pejorative "Bog" as in "Bog Irish" via the surname "Bogan"   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.222.204.18 (talk) 05:52, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The term definitely predates 1985. I remember hearing it being used in high school in 1982 - it referred to students who wore black desert boots, skinny black jeans, and heavy metal t-shirts. The term has evolved over the years to a broader definition. I believe it originated from the horror film which came out that same year called The Boogens. Neuterz (talk) 01:16, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

This page is just wrong!
Bogan is a derivation of the Scottish term "Bog-un" It means "person of the bogs" or "bog one"

It is a term that was used to define Scottish and Irish undesirables, some of which were SENT TO AUSTRALIA AS CONVICTS. So next time you say "Bogan is a pejorative term used in Australia and New Zealand" remember you are talking about OUR FOREFATHERS and saying that we are "expressing a low opinion of them, or showing a lack of respect for them"

Well done guys, well done.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/canwehelp/txt/s2648042.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.146.203.210 (talk) 21:56, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * This claim will need a reliable source, not just someone's opinion. --Dmol (talk) 22:07, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

HENRY LAWSON AND THE BOGAN METAPHOR
The word bogan seems to have been in use in Australia since the mid nineteenth century as a place name and river name in north western New South Wales, reputedly with Aboriginal origins. However, the name entered popular culture in Australia in the prose works of Henry Lawson. He invented a character “One-eyed Bogan” who appeared irregularly, usually in absentia, in the short stories as a coarse opinionated cause of much controversial mischief. He first appears in the story “The Man Who Forgot”, published in the first series of While The Billy Boils in 1896, in which an ill-fated fraudster feigning memory loss stole the cheques and valuables of shearers from their swags. The lead character, Tom the Oracle, was so mad on discovering the deception that One-eyed Bogan was invoked to describe the depth of feeling - “Twas a rough (shearing) shed, with a free and lurid vocabulary, but had they all sworn in chorus, with One-eyed Bogan as lead, it would not have done justice to Tom’s feelings…”.

He appears again in “Send Round the Hat” (1907) as a reluctant donor to a collection to help a sick jackeroo. He is however, generous with the money of his sleeping and drunken enemy “Barcoo Rot” who could not be woken even with “Bogan’s stump-splitting adjectives”, and was later in trouble with the police for “smashing nearly all the windows of the Carrier’s Arms” in a drunken spree. Of course, One-eyed Bogan could not pay his fine. He was a narrow victor in a celebrated fight with Barcoo Rot which caused both contestants severe damage, to the great entertainment of the drinking clientele, and afterwards declared his religious status to shut down the self-righteous preaching of a Salvation Army spruiker pouring scorn on the “free thinkers” –

“One-eyed, or Wall-eyed Bogan, who had a broken nose, and the best side of whose face was reckoned the ugliest and most sinister – One-eyed Bogan thrust his face forward from the ring of darkness into the torchlight of salvation. He had got the worst of a drawn battle; his nose and mouth were bleeding, and his good eye was damaged.

Look at my face” he snarled with dangerous earnestness. “Look at my face! That’s the face of a freethinker, and I don’t care who knows it.”

Lawson’s comment was that “Bogan’s face was more the result of free speech” than of free thinking. He explains the effect of a pretty Salvation Army girl on the men in terms of Bogan – that if he (Lawson) were a writer of fiction, he would write that “One-eyed Bogan left off gambling and drinking and fighting and swearing, and put on a red coat and testified and fought the devil”, but of course, the truth was otherwise. A rumour that “One-eyed Bogan intended to shave and join the (Salvation) Army disguised as a lassie” was so outrageous as to be the source of much mirth.

In the story “Lord Douglas” (Send Round the Hat, 1907), Percy Douglas “made himself well hated” because “he got One-eyed Bogan ‘three months hard’ (labour) for taking a bottle of whiskey off the Imperial Bar counter because he was drunk and thirsty and had knocked down his (shearing) cheque, and because there was no one minding the bar at the moment”. Bogan was not a minder of petty protocols. He was however, an active participant in the great Shearers’ strike:

“One-eyed Bogan, and his trusty enemy, Barcoo Rot, and one or two other enthusiastic reformers were charged with rioting, and got from one to three months hard. And they had only smashed three windows of the Imperial Hotel and chased the Chinese cook into the river”.

Bogan was happy to pursue a cause aligned with his own self-interest.

However, when Douglas returns from the West Australian Goldfields (really from two years prison for embezzlement) pennyless to his struggling wife and young children, One-eyed Bogan capitulates to Mitchell’s argument for fairness and is the first to throw money in the hat to help. This is despite Douglas having been on the other side of the Shearer’s strike, and being the cause of Bogan being sent for a term in jail. As Lawson’s perennial character Mitchell says, “we’re all jail-birds at heart, only we haven’t all got the pluck”.

The one-eyed nature of the character was a successful device for an iconic anti-social intolerant character, quick to judgment and quick to action usually in self-interest, self-indulgence or social ignorance. One-eyed is a metaphor for the irrational and unbalanced and Bogan only sees the full picture when someone else points it out to him. However, when that happens, his reactions are compassionate which shows that beneath that belligerent ignorance lies a good heart.

The story of Bogan comes to a conclusion in the story “The Blindness of One-eyed Bogan” (Send Round the Hat 1907). Again Bogan is in absentia, the story being told by Mitchell. The police constable Campbell sets out to arrest One-eyed Bogan, but is enticed by Bogan to cross the swollen Darling River (“there was a lot of low cunning about Bogan”). The constable loses his horse in mid-stream, and would have drowned if Bogan had not seen his difficulties and rushed in to save him. The constable is saved, but in the flood waters Bogan’s good eye is jagged and he is blinded completely. Of course the charges against him were dropped, a collection was taken up to pay his expenses and the first visitor to the hospital in Bourke was his old enemy Barcoo Rot who declared they had had their last fight and that “if I can’t fight you, I can fight for you – and don’t you forget it”. They gave him a job as a blind wool sorter during the shearing season and the shearers were quite proud of him for what he did with his handicap and made sure he was paid enough to get him through the rest of the year and all looked out for him. Then Bogan’s estranged wife turned up and moved back in with him with their young son, who apparently didn’t look anything like Bogan, a fact that nobody ever mentioned, and she then set them up in a small clean cottage earning a living from washing and sewing. Bogan even started taking care with his appearance for the first time in his life.

Blindness caused his life to become stable and predictable. The excesses of One-eyed life ceased and was replaced by a quiet certitude based on the past. The arguments and the fighting, the struggle, stopped and all that was left was an impermeable ignorance which limited his expectations of his fellows but gave him happiness for the first time in his life. Blindness – ignorance – was bliss. It is left to Mitchell to lift the bogan idea from the particular to the general, and in doing so describe the Bogan metaphor – “There’s a good many people in this world (ie blind Bogans) who think you can’t see because they can’t”. This seems like an accurate description of the current use of the word bogan, but whatever the modern references that have popularised the expression, it is clear that it rests on strong Australian cultural foundations from the beginning of the twentieth century that were built by Henry Lawson.

Ross Flutter (talk) 01:03, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

inakamono
I don't know if 'inakamono' is really the equivalent of 'bogan'—the word has a connotation of 'hick'. Here in Japan, yankii's are much closer to the bogan subculture. In fact, my girlifriend, who lived in Australia and is Japanese, call them 'Japanese bogans'. http://www.cracked.com/article_18567_6-japanese-subcultures-that-are-insane-even-japan_p2.html 121.112.12.14 (talk) 14:36, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

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Bogan teeth
I removed a statement about the appearance of a bogan as not having had bands or other orthodonty, because of cost. This was referenced. But the editor who wrote this plainly did not understand the implication of what they had read and referenced. The article said that bogans had "very interesting teeth" and that "it costs a lot to have your teeth fixed". This doesn't imply that they didn't have orthodonty of braces; very few Australians of any class have orthodonty or braces for purely asthetic reasonss. People only have that type of work done (in Autralia) if it is deemed necessary because of bad bite, or seriously affected appearance. By far the majority of young Australians have natural, non-straightened, non-improved, but healthy teeth. This is the same in the UK.

So when the reporter commented that the bogans had "interesting" teeth, they were using the word in a euphemistic manner. What they were inplying was that bogans often have teeth that are broken, missing, or decayed. That is a far cry from having a mouthful of strong, but somewhat crooked teeth.

Amandajm (talk) 21:22, 26 November 2016 (UTC)