Talk:Bogle–Chandler case

Dispute Cause of Death
LSD overdose? While it is possible that the deceased may have been given LSD ancillary to something else, physical overdose of LSD leading to death is unknown in the medical literature. Whig 03:58, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dalton link?
Catherine Dalton (daughter of Robert Graves and widow of nuclear scientist Clifford Dalton) alleged that Bogle was murdered to stop him investigating Dalton's 1961 death. I'm not sure whether this is worthy of mention here; I have some acquaintance with the family and first heard of the claim that way, but I don't know how widely her claims were aired. --Calair 06:13, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Murraybank
This is the name of a CSIRO research station but the web does not make its location clear.

Bogle page
I have created a separate entry for Bogle. It is the bare bones, without a date of birth at this stage. It may be debatable whether this is better turned into a simple redirect page to the Boger-Chandler case. Either way, searching just for Gilbert Bogle ought to provide a clearer link to the mystery.Grimhim 01:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Oops, I changed it to a redirect before seeing the above post (otherwise I would have posted here first). However I agree with Grimhim that's it's a good idea to have the redirect, and the guy doesn't appear notable enough to warrant his own article. If I'm mistaken, feel free to remove the redirect. --AbsolutDan (talk) 01:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced claim removed
I have removed " apart from that of a prisoner in Brixton, London, in the 1980s. " after "Against this, LSD is considered to be a drug on which it is next to impossible to overdose, with no other associated fatalities." because it is highly unlikely and noreference is given. Cacycle 18:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

How about getting some sources for the rest of the article? I'm not sure where to start. It seems well-written and interesting, but not backed up at all71.63.119.49 22:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

LSD poisoining theory
Like most others who had encountered the drug LSD in their youth I immediatly discounted the theory advanced that the cause of death was related to an "LSD overdose".

Several years ago I read an article written upon the death of the policeman who initially advanced this theory. I found his hypothethis had been misreported in the media.

During the intial investigation the police had considered the possibility that the victims had obtained a one ounce bottle containing many hundreds of thousands of doses of LSD. At this time it was possible, provided appropriate approval was given, to order from, and obtain, these bottles of pure bulk LSD direct from Sandoz pharmaceutical Swiss warehouse; cost about $100. I have since found the approval required was rather basic, a request for the drug written on any standard University letterhead paper would do.

LSD was being used in the social scene the victims belonged to, at this time the drug was not illegal, either in the USA or Australia. Many University types were trying it.

It is certainly possible these people had encountered bulk pure LSD; there are records of other LSD overdoses (resulting from these one ounce bottles), where individuals inadvertantly ingested the pure form of the drug. Vomiting, diarreah, and possibly death were recorded as symptoms of such overdose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.93.37.182 (talk) 21:06, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Project MK Ultra involved the bulk use of pure LSD 118.93.37.182 (talk) 21:11, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Good article, but perhaps one bad word?
The clause "... an explosion of gas from the polluted river bed may have occurred ... " might lead one to believe that there was, you know, an "explosion", like a detonation. Perhaps something like "... a burst of gas ..." might be a bit better? Old_Wombat (talk) 04:36, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Having sex whilst being gassed with hydrogen sulphide?
Even a little bit of hydrogen sulphide stinks. Like, roolly, roolly bad. How bad would it be in a toxic dose? Is this the sort of environment that you would want to have sex in? Old_Wombat (talk) 04:43, 2 December 2011 (UTC)


 * At 1 ppm you can just notice a bad smell, at 30+ ppm H2S smells like rotten eggs but at 50-100 ppm it smells cloyingly sweet. At a level over 100 ppm, H2S paralyses the olfactory nerve (sense of smell) almost instantly and as it is invisible you would not notice it although it could make you vomit and cause breathlessness. At 200 ppm respiratory failure occurs within seconds and you die. At 1000 ppm a single breath causes instant cardiac arrest. This changing property is why this gas is considered so dangerous. Although no levels were measured at the river, there is anecdotal evidence of levels of around 100ppm being common in the area on still days. A sudden eruption of gas could easily cause levels to exceed this briefly until it dissipated. Wayne (talk) 11:45, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

OK, Wayne, thanx for that. But I am still struggling with the logistics. With H2S being a gas, it would be diffuse ("no brick wall"), so they can't go from 0 ppm to a high ppm without experiencing everything in between.

I am trying to put myself into their shoes. He takes the girl to the river. They go through the low concentration part, it smells bad. But that quickly disappears as they enter the medium concentration, upon which it becomes cloyingly sweet. Then no smell at all, due to olfactory paralysis. Finally, a suddent eruption at a fatal level, but by now they smell nothing, so they don't know that. And it kills them.

So in the excitement and anticipation of incipient sex, they hardly notice the bad smell, which after all, only lasted a short time. Is that how we think it happened? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Old wombat (talk • contribs) 12:17, 2 December 2011 (UTC)


 * H2S is heavier than air and would settle in hollows. The gas needs a breeze to dissipate and this would be inhibited by being in a hollow so it would "pool". If we assume there was little or no gas around that day and there was an eruption of gas upstream. The gas would seek the low points and at 100 - 150 ppm would be undetectable. The couple could remain doing their thing for some time before perhaps feeling a bit breathless and maybe nauseaous. They would smell and see nothing to explain this and it may be too late, their respiratory systems are already shutting down and they will likely fall unconscious before they can leave the area. I am certified as a permit required rescuer and some years back was affected myself. I was breathless and nauseaous but I was also confused (couldn't think straight) so it didn't even cross my mind that there was anything wrong at first lol. Even leaving the area may not save them as the gas already in the system can still kill. It sometimes binds with haemoglobin in the blood which reduces it's oxygen carrying capacity (and turns the blood bluish or purple depending on amount). You wont even notice this and most doctors would not realise what the colour meant. I believe there was a case in 2006 where a worker was hospitalised after breathing H2S. Two months after being released from hospital he went into a coma and subsequently died. Wayne (talk) 13:22, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

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Unclear wording
"The Coroner stood down a key female witness before she could give evidence, to protect the families." This sentence is in the Background section. It is unclear to me on these points:

1: How does it fit in with the rest of the paragraph?

2: To which families does this refer to? The families of the victims?

3: How did this protect the families?

4: What does "stood down" mean? The phrase has multiple meanings, and I am not sure which one is applicable here. IDWChen (talk) 03:16, 1 February 2019 (UTC)IDWChen


 * We may reasonably take it that the Coroner regarded the lady's testimony as being of minor relevance but potentially unnecessarily harmful to her family and Bogle's. I've clarified the wording.  In answer to your third question--How would you like it if a past affair of your wife, mother or sister were to be suddenly exposed in a court hearing and plastered all over the news media for no good purpose? Bjenks (talk) 06:57, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Unsupported categorisation
I'm alerted by this recent edit to the fact that there is no justification for categorising the Bogle-Chandler case as a murder, even though that questionable assumption stood in the mind of police for many years. The most plausible theory advanced to date is that the deaths were accidental and caused by an emergence of H2S. I propose that we now remove all the 'murder' and 'crimes' categories. Bjenks (talk) 05:46, 23 March 2019 (UTC)