Talk:Bolton/Archive 1

Paragraph from old article
This came from Bolton, Lancashire which is now a redirect to here


 * Bolton is a large town in the north west of England, 53 degrees 34' North 2 degrees 26' West.


 * Bolton-le-Moors was a settlement in a natural valley on the West Pennine Moors on the banks of the River Croal, and the Manor of Bolton is first recorded in 1067, as being owned by the Montgomery family. However the earliest evidence for any settlement in Bolton goes back to the Bronze Age, with a Stone Circle in Egerton. Bolton was part of a large area owned by the Crown after the Norman invasion in 1066. The spoils of war left it a largely barren area, but a baron of William the Conqueror, Roger de Poictou, responsible for Liverpool and Lancaster Castles, was given the land (between the River Ribble and River Mersey to the west of Manchester. It was subsequently passed back to the Crown, then on to Ranulf de Bricasard, third Earl of Chester, and transferred to Roger de Maresy. Of the intervening families to whom this manor passed, most held position of the Earl of Derby.


 * As with many early settlements, the river and valley was the main reason for settlers to choose Bolton. Agriculture was the chief occupation of the residents, the moors ideal grazing land, the fleece of the sheep weaved for it's local population. Although initially the textiles made were for local use, word spread about the quality, and at around 1100 A.D., government officials of Richard I were appointed to measure and mark the cloth. This reputation attracted Flemish weavers to settle in Bolton about 1337. They introduced spinning and weaving, and also clog making. It was still a cottage industry and the town gained a reputation for quality, with more textile workers drawn to the industry, producing wool garments. In around 1540 John Le'land, antiquary to Henry VIII wrote "Bolton Moore market stands most my cottons and coarse yarns. Divers villages in the moores about Bolton do make cottons. They burn at Bolton some canale, but more se cole, of which the pittes be not far off". (Reference to 'cottons' was in fact wool, cotton came around 100 years later). Evidence indeed that coal was used in Bolton, and the existence of an industry in the villages about Bolton.


 * The telephone dialing code for Bolton and most of the borough is 01204. Some parts of Kearsley and Radcliffe are 0161 (Manchester) but the whole of Westhoughton is 01942 (Wigan). Western borders may have the 01257 (Chorley) dialling code, particularly Grimeford and Rivington area. Northern Bolton into Lancashire still retains the 01204 code, however some may be 01254 (Blackburn). Dialling internationally, the UK country code is 44, but do not dial the 0 in the numbers above, so to dial a Bolton number, dial your international code, then 44 1204 then the number.

I'm not sure why the last paragraph was put in, but the rest of the article needs integrating.

Origin of the name of Bolton
The origins of the name section currently makes no sense. It says there are 3 theories, but only names one. To make matters worse, it labels it with 1) and there is no 2)! CSS-Prince 12:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Looking at the history of the page, it did used to have the following:


 * The town has had many derivations of its spelling including Bothelton and Boulton. The Flodden Field may be incorrect as the town was already known as Bolton in 1253 when it gained its market charter. Evidence of Saxon settlement exists in the form of religious objects found when the present Victorian parish church was built.


 * Other theories include the bowl-like shape of the town, quite simply bowltown, Bolton with the same origin of the ton section of the word Bolton as the explanation above.


 * If anyone can verify these and tidy them up, they may or may not be usable as theories 2 and 3. Otherwise the 3 theories bit should be removed IMO.--CSS-Prince 12:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The first quote about the reference to Flodden Field was added by myself - probably not in the best place. As Bolton has two market charters dating back to 1251 and 1253 specifically calling it Bolton then this can't be true.
 * The reference to 'bowltown' is speculative as the anglo-saxon word for bowl was something compeltely different. The word escapes me at the moment but I'll have to find it. Polonia 18:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I suspect that there are lots of ideas of the origin of the name Bolton.
 * The Dictionary of British Place-Names in Names & Places gives this version
 * Bolton,  a common name in the North of England, from OE *bõthl-tũn ‘settlement with a special building’; examples include: Bolton Bolton. Boelton 1185....... ''  (Sorry the OE characters do not display when pasted so used the nearest I could find)  --jmb 00:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * This is the current section on Etymology
 * "''The origins of the name (in full, 'Bolton-le-Moors'), which has had many derivations of its spelling including Bothelton and Boulton, are not totally clear from historical records.[citation needed]'"
 * It seems hard to see how a citation can be given for it not being clear. I quoted the Oxford DBPNNP above and I think someone had previous posted a different origin which shows that there are different ideas for the origin of the place name (as often happens with place names).  The quote from the DBPNNP above can be used if required.  --jmb 15:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I always heard the name originated from the towns bowl like shape. Tommyhaych 11:47, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Schultzy
In the famous people section I see the entry

Schultzy - Co-Founder of The Great Union.

This looks to me like vandalism. Can a more knowlegable editor confirm this individual's existence and notability or else delete the entry, please? BTLizard 09:52, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It's been repeatedly added over the last two weeks and is a clear vanity edit. Please revert on sight, and if there's any breach of 3RR report it correspondingly.  I have given them two third-level warnings on their talk page - if they continue to vandalise after the next warning, they will be blocked if reported to WP:AIV   A    q    uilina   10:06, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Barrow Bridge
I hate to be picky but there are two links on the Bolton page labelled Barrow Bridge that link to Barrow Bridge in Ireland and not the Barrow Bridge in Bolton.

Large
Someone has queried the description of Bolton as a "large town" by someone else. I have a memory of being told that Bolton was the largest County Borough and certainly a web search finds lots of descriptions of Bolton as a "large town", several call in the "largest town in" England or the UK. So perhaps it is not unreasonable to call it a large town. --jmb 20:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that "large", although a relative and subjective term, in truth probably is fair in this case. The phrase is also used in another article here However the "largest in England" claim is incorrect (that honour goes to Reading) - going on the basis of population rather than, say, geographical area, Bolton is the 14th largest town in the UK that does not have city status. DWaterson 23:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I always thought Bolton's population was over the 200,000 mark. The 2001 census seems to show 261,037 although this could be the larger "Metropolitan" Bolton boundary statistics. Which counts towards the largest town status? With 261,037 that would make it the biggest? MeanStreets "...Chorizo..." 14:49, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The population figure used for Reading to earn it the honour of being called the largest town in England incorporates the urban area referred to as "Greater Reading," (i.e. the town of Reading and the surrounding areas) yet the figure used for Bolton does not take such extended boundaries into account. Should these area's be taken into account (for the sake of argument and comparison, call those areas "Greater Bolton") then the figure of 261,037 for the Metropolitan Borough would be the most relevant to describe the population of Bolton. In using the current figure of 139,403, there are 121,634 people who are living in what is known as Bolton, who will not have been taken into account for the population figure currently used. A further argument for using the larger figure would be that a lot of the towns schools, and also the towns football team, would also not be classed as being in Bolton, and therefore they should not be mentioned on the page for Bolton, but rather the page for the Metropolitan Borough, should the lower population figure continue to be used, as the people of Bolton are just as relevant as the landmarks. JPDMJ (talk) 13:24, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure whether you are for or against using the higher Metropolitan Borough figure for the town of Bolton's population.
 * There is a big difference between a borough and a town. Some see them being one and the same. They are not.
 * The Metropolitan Borough of Bolton has a population of 261,037 and contains the main town of Bolton, plus the surrounding towns and villages of Horwich, Blackrod, Westhoughton, Farnworth, Kearsley, Little Lever, Harwood, Egerton and other smaller places within the local authority.
 * The actual town of Bolton has a population of 139,403 which includes its various suburbs, such as Lostock, Halliwell, Breightmet, etc.
 * To take another example: The neighbouring Metropolitan Borough of Wigan has a population of 301,415, which includes main town of Wigan, but also includes the towns of Leigh, Atherton, Ashton-in-Makerfield, Ince-in-Makerfield, and Hindley.
 * The actual town of Wigan has a population of 81,203. It'd be incorrect to use Wigan Metropolitan Borough's figure for Wigan town's figure.
 * So the same with Bolton Metropolitan Borough and Bolton Town. The first is a local authority with a larger population. The second is one of the towns with a smaller population within the Metropolitan Borough.
 * Perhaps someone should challenge Reading's town population figures. Cayden (talk)  16:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Links
I have noticed that links are being removed by V1459 and others. There were two links to a local theatre and bolton music collective which I feel are relevant - not to mention a link to the Dog and Partrige ( Music venue in Bolton ).

Cleanup (please)
Bolton (the article) is in need of a thorough cleanup! I've restructured alot of the content per Wikipedia's style guide and the guidelines of the UK Geography WikiProject (guidelines found here).

I'll do my best to standardise some of the headings and text, and format certain statements, facts and figures. However, an experienced editor with local knowledge would be most beneficial here to help move the article forwards. Much of the text is uncited, and unverifiable, and some is written from a local, informal and biased perspective. Jhamez84 22:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Agree, though it's not as bad as many local articles. Thanks for reverting User:Drewshow's changes, there was too much unexplained deletion of sourced material and retention of unsourced, even though a few of the changes were helpful. DWaterson 10:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I've cleaned up the trivia section. Moving the parts from there into new sections. Created a Bolton in Popular Culture - Monty Python info added here. Pheonix Nights could do with a mention here. I'll try and add that next week. MeanStreets "...Chorizo..." 18:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Notable Residents

 * This entry appeared a few weeks back
 * # Michael Taylor - Experienced cartographer and co-founder / promoter of the British Tom Tom satellite navigation systems [citation needed]
 * The name links to someone in the USA on death row. TomTom is a Dutch company, not British, and there is no one with that name mentioned on the company website.  It looks very like vandalism but wanted someone to confirm so the entry can be deleted.  --jmb 13:08, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep, seems unverifiable. DWaterson 15:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * This one looks like another vanity entry --jmb 11:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Chris Rabbitt - Founder of the Cross of Bromleyshire, c.2007
 * Chris Rabbitt! haha... I deleted. MeanStreets "...Chorizo..." 18:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Town Hall
I think we coud do with making new pages for the Town Hall and Civic Centre. I have created red links for them already. I am willing to write both, but I haven't got access to the relevant Pevsner guide at the moment. I also have photographs of both buildings that I am willing to contribute. AFCR 16:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I have a copy of "Bolton - A Study in Town Planning and Civic Art". The pages are too big to scan but I have photographed them.  You can grab them from my website if you want to use any.  Just set the copyright to "The copyright holder gave me permission to use this work only in Wikipedia articles" if you want to use them.  I have Pevsner if you want anything checked.  --jmb 16:31, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Brilliant book - I used some illustrations scanned from it in an essay for the Lanc's & Cheshire Antiquarian Soc'. Thanks! AFCR 17:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Textile manufacture
"The town's position on the west of the Pennines provides a damp climate. It is this feature which probably led to Flemish weavers, fleeing the Huguenot persecutions in the 17th century, to eventually settle here, as moisture-laden air allows for the spinning of cotton with little breakage."

That's often said, but I'm not sure it's true is it? Weren't the advantages the Manchester area had the numerous relatively fast flowing streams to provide water power, nearby coal and salt? ---- Eric 09:28, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe this is one of the causes. But definatly not the major cause. Mechanisation led the way, from 'cottage' industries to water powered and eventually steam powered - i.e coal; also bleach formed from the salt. The port of Liverpool and the formation of the canal network, not to over look the rise of Manchester as a economic trading city. MeanStreets "...Chorizo..." 08:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Famous people
I've curtailed the list, which was getting too long and looked messy. I've kept to the more prominent "Famous people" and removed anything after their name, if they are famous, then their name alone speaks for themselves. Cayden (talk)  11:44, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Putting into columns will create problems as any extra names are added.
 * Too many names have been removed
 * I disagree with removing the short description, it is normal on similar lists on other pages and it can be interesting to find out about people associated with Bolton who I have never heard of previously.
 * Educated at Bolton School is strange considering there is already a list on the Bolton School page, I would have thought that "Educated in Bolton" would be more appropriate.
 * It is hard to decide about the outlying areas of Bolton, particularly where they have their own Wiki entry. Perhaps there should be a vote or discussion rather than one person imposing their own personal view as has happened.
 * I would suggest
 * Born in Bolton
 * Educated in Bolton
 * Lived in Bolton and or Associated with Bolton
 * Then a section for the areas around Bolton though most of these could be included under "lived in", "educated" or "associated" --jmb 13:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry to offend anyone, I certainly don't want to impose my own view, but to be honest, nothing was being done to clean-up the section.
 * I'd took a leaf from the Salford article. I divided into sections and removed the short description from each person's link (the Ralf Little discription was far from short). Also, I felt there were too many minor notables, some of whom don't even have an article. Perhaps I did remove too many people.
 * I disagree that the outlaying towns and villages within the local authority area to be included in the article. As the first paragraph of the article states it is the largest settlement of the Metropolitan Borough of Bolton. If someone was born and bred, for example: in Westhoughton or Farnworth, they belong on their own place page. After all, Atherton, Leigh and Ashton-in-Makerfield are part of Wigan MBC, but wouldn't be included in the Wigan article.
 * What made me think with the previous list, Bolton School was mentioned a number times and so created an "Educated at Bolton School" section. I'm happy with your suggestion to re-name it as "Educated in Bolton", that way anyone educated in Bolton can be included and not tied to one place.
 * Perhaps "Residents (past and present)" could be renamed "Associated with Bolton". I don't think "Lived in and Associated with Bolton" would be right, its too long, also some people could still be alive and living in Bolton. Cayden (talk)  16:18, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I could not decide on the exact working but I was thinking that there would be people who were born in Westhoughton, Farnworth etc (as well as other parts of the country) but were associated more (or as much) with Bolton than the place they were born.
 * I think I only learnt about Robert Whitehead's connection to Bolton through the mention on the Bolton Wiki page.  The big problem is the vanity additions of present day writers, singers etc who are usually removed fairly quickly.  Obviously every person who writes in the local newspaper or sings in a local pub cannot be added.
 * Perhaps an entry in the DNB would be a suitable test of "noteworthiness" for historical figures?
 * As I wrote columns create problems for additions in the future unless they can be set to automatically format (I don't understand enough about Wiki to know if this is possible) --jmb 18:37, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * This is just a suggestion. Instead of a list of famous people in the main Bolton article, a paragraph would simply say to the effect that many people in and around Bolton in different times have made their mark in one way or another. Obviously it'd be written much better and longer than that. At the end of the paragraph, a link would take to new article with a full A to Z famous people from the Bolton area. It could be titled "Famous Boltonians" or "People linked with Bolton" or some other description, it'd include all those from the surrounding outlying places. Instead of a short description, it'd allow a brief paragraph for each person, perhaps in the manner of the introduction paragraphs in biography articles. The page would then allow the less known notables and local celebrities, even if they don't have their article, they'd be the brief paragraph. It'd be better than the limited list in the Bolton article or the basic Category:People from Bolton. Cayden (talk)  12:20, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds quite a way of doing it, it is interesting to learn of people associated in various ways with an area. Only thing is to try and avoid too many vanity entries but not sure how they can be avoided by apart from deleting them.   There is the danger of every writer in the local paper, everyone who sings in a local pub or plays for a local sports team being included.   --jmb 14:30, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree the list shouldn't become an all and everyone list. Just to keep the list to the famous and more prominent notables. Thinking about the layout I suggested, perhaps just keep the list to a short description, similar to List of Prestonians. The only difference being, the list be divided A to Z by surname. Cayden (talk)  15:00, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I've moved the list of famous people to a new article, List of famous Boltonians. I had curtailed the list in the main Bolton article too much, but felt it had got too long. The only option was to create the new article. Hopefully, contributors will approve with the list's new place. Cayden (talk)  22:42, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

News item
There is a news item in the Bolton Evening News about this Wikipedia page. One interesting quote "A sentence which said Bolton was in Greater Manchester has been altered to Lancashire. And while the move will be widely welcomed by many in the town - a recent poll by The Bolton News showed 87 per cent in favour of putting the borough back in Lancashire - it is sure to reignite the debate."  --jmb 21:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ironically, I've just reverted the same trad counties change again... DWaterson 15:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Library
Is there a need for a list of the different sections of books in the library? They don't seem any different to other libraries. --jmb 21:17, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Certainly not needed. I've pruned it severely. DWaterson 00:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * An unregistered editor, 81.104.30.134, created the section. I was dubious that it was too long, but I corrected the book section part, which hadn’t been edited properly. I've no problem it being pruned. I was thinking to curtain it. Cayden (talk)  18:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The CaM Guide
In the Media section it mentions the CaM Guide which to me seems more advertising than encyclopedic information. I followed the link and there is no proof to state that the company originates from Bolton. Any views on this? Cayden (talk)  19:13, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It does seem to be an advertising site as far as I could see. Typically more effort put into fancy animated graphics than actual content.  They also have a link from the Bolton Steam Museum page, that has a bit of content but far too much irritating advertising so probably should also be removed.  Links were added by 82.23.238.196, only contribution to Wikipedia from that IP Address.  --jmb 19:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've removed the CaM Guide from the Media section. It was more of a general plug for the website than a specific place. I've left the other link for the Bolton Steam Museum which at least mentions about the museum. Cayden (talk)  20:05, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Capitalisation and things
Not sure about some of the changes in capitalisation done by 217.43.154.68 yesterday.
 * I would have thought that "Bolton Holidays" should keep capitals on both words as it is a specific holiday. "Bolton holidays" sounds just like any old holidays in Bolton.
 * "Dirt Track Racing" - not sure about all capitals on that?
 * Not sure whether all the stuff about Prince Albert is necessary
 * Can't decide whether Winter Hill transmitting station should be "in Belmont" or "at Belmont" though I think that correctly it is on Rivington Moor, administratively in Chorley and accessed from Horwich. The boundary for Belmont district is further North East near the BT tower and police masts.  --jmb (talk) 16:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Must admit I thought some of these changes were a bit odd, but I was leaving it in good faith for someone else to pick up on :-) DWaterson (talk) 00:53, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * That is why I thought I would ask here first before changing anything, easier with a bit of consensus! --jmb (talk) 01:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with "Bolton Holidays" which should begin with capital letters.
 * I'm not sure whether its "Dirt Track racing" or "Dirt track racing". There's the Wiki article Dirt track racing. In some parts its spelt "Dirt Track", in other parts its "Dirt track" or "dirt track". So I don't know which is correct. With other sports, none spell "racing" with a capital letter - Horse racing, Greyhound racing, Ski racing and Cycle racing.
 * The stuff about Prince Albert does need cutting down a bit. To help with that he should be linked to his page Albert, Prince Consort.
 * I'd have thought the Winter Hill transmitter was not "in" or "at", but "near" Belmont. Also instead of North West BBC it should be linked to BBC North West. I feel this paragraph needs rewritten. Cayden (talk)  15:30, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Public Transport - Trains
With regards to the trains section. It is now out of date. Virgin Cross Country trains no longer operate through Bolton. These have been taken over by First Trans-Pennine trains. Also we DO NOT have a direct service to London as the West Coast Mainline does not operate through Bolton - as that either terminates at Manchester or goes further north via Wigan! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.196.238.225 (talk) 09:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Education
and Smithills School which have a world champion brass band (motto: "Pride and Respect") although some are in special measures
 * This is a bit of mess and could do with rewriting and correcting. What is in special measures?  It means nothing to me.  --jmb (talk) 10:17, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed, messy. Special measures is an Ofsted status for failing schools which gives the school a chance to improve. The statement is meaningless as "some are in special measures" is not encyclopaedic - it should list which are in special measures together with appropriate citations. I suggest deletion of the phrase. --TimTay (talk) 10:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I thought special measures might be something like that but the phrase is meaningless to most people so best deleted. --jmb (talk) 10:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Township populations
Are there any approximate figures for the other townships that eventually became part of Bolton - Halliwell, Sharples, Deane, Tonge etc as I don't think these were part of Little or Great Bolton. --jmb (talk) 18:07, 14 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Great Bolton and Little Bolton were townships/civil parishes and had their own population figures. Halliwell, Sharples, Tonge-with-Haulgh, etc, were separate townships/civil parishes and had their own population figures. Deane was a parish with 10 townships and Bolton le Moors parish had eighteen. A good number these were absorbed into the County Borough of Bolton in 1898, or were urban districts until 1974 when they became part of the Metropolitan Borough of Bolton. A vision of Britain through time has some of (or with others all) the population figures for these townships/civil parishes/urban districts. HLE (talk) 23:00, 14 March 2009 (UTC)


 * That was the reason for asking. Someone unfamiliar with Bolton might think that Bolton = Little Bolton + Great Bolton.  Also it might explain the sudden jump in population between 1891 and 1901 in your table.  --jmb (talk) 01:02, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It is not my table, I just edited it to match with the Bolton 1901-2001 table. I'm sure you'll agree the Demography part of the page is a rather bland with just figures but no further explanation. Without repeating the Civic history part, the Demography part should to a degree mention about the sudden jump in population between 1891 and 1901. Do you have any ideas how this could be done? HLE (talk) 14:15, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps something on the lines of "Bolton population" "Including Little Bolton, Great Bolton and various other townships incorporated into the Borough in the 19th Century). Using similar layout to the "Township populations" section.  I don't think there is any need to itemise every township, just make people aware of the reason for the sudden increase.  --jmb (talk) 17:00, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It would be better to add a line above Little Bolton for Bolton population, these are the figures for 1801-1851
 * 1801   1811    1821    1831    1841     1851
 * 40763	53625	66510	83369	97529	114712
 * It not be too difficult to find total figures for 1861 etc and these are more relevant that LB and GB.  --jmb (talk) 09:56, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Take a look at Bolton le Moors. It includes many of the local townships which now comprise the town. Some of the other townships, although not part of the town, still come under the metro borough. I've also collected the figures of the townships in the historical parish of Deane. I may put a table of them in the Deane, Greater Manchester page, or maybe create a page specifically about the Deane civic/ecclesiastical parish. HLE (talk) 20:45, 3 April 2009 (UTC)