Talk:Bombing of Pforzheim in World War II

the article was copied from page pforzheim. it should be on an own page, because it becomes larger and larger. -- 13:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC) Wega14

Verified
see Pforzheim and Bombing of Dresden in World War II --Walter Görlitz 21:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Some of the numbers can not be checked from the current reference.
 * The number of German dead is not mentioned in the RAF page.
 * The details of the dammage are not mentioned.
 * The number of planes lost in the raid is not mentioned instead the RAF report "Total effort for the night: 666 sorties, 17 aircraft (2.6 per cent) lost.
 * The tonnage of bombs can be confirmed but not the number of bombs.

"Short movie" under references (http://www.pforzheim.de/filme/23feb_historisch/1PF_offline_mpg1.mpg) no longer exists. --Owencm 16:20, 12 October 2009 (GMT)

I removed the direct link to Dresden in the text because there were a number of large raids betweem them, (this was industrial scale bombing): 14th Chemnitz: 499 aircraft; 17th,18th,18 Wesel: 298,160,168 aircraft; 19th Böhlen: 260; 20th Dortmund 528; 21st Duisburg 373, and Worms: 349; 23rd Essen 342 and many more smaller raids. --Philip Baird Shearer 22:06, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

the source is on the german page available. (http://www.bombenkrieg.historicum.net/themen/pforzheim.html) It should be controlled by somebody, which can read german. the source on german page is controlled by: (in english I found no source like that, sorry)

Prof. Dr. Gudrun Gersmann Universität zu Köln Historisches Seminar Albertus-Magnus-Platz D-50923 Köln Tel.: (0221) 470-4352 gudrun.gersmann@uni-koeln.de

Prof. Dr. Hubertus Kohle Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München Institut für Kunstgeschichte Georgenstr. 7 D-80799 München Tel.: +49 (0)89/21805317 Fax : +49 (0)89/21805316 Hubertus.Kohle@lrz.uni-muenchen.de http://www.fak09.uni-muenchen.de/Kunstgeschichte

Sabine Büttner Universität zu Köln Historisches Seminar Albertus-Magnus-Platz D-50923 Köln Tel.: (0221) 470-4353 sabine.buettner@uni-koeln.de -- &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wega14 (talk &bull; contribs) 22:31, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

http://babelfish.altavista.com/ does a good job of translating the page here are some of the relevent points: --Philip Baird Shearer 22:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 *  The first air raid on the city was flown on 1 April 1944 by US-American bombers. Further followed this first attack with comparatively small damage and 95 victims, consequence-fraughtest those in the holy evening of the yearly 1944 and on 21 January 1945.
 * The railway and roads passing through Pforzheim were being used to transport troops and armaments. The analysis by the RAF issued on 28 June 1944 said Pforzheim was "one of the centres of the German jewellery and watch making trade and is therefore likely ton have become OF considerable importance into the production OF precision instrument". The industry of the city was not intergreted into spacious factories outside of the city centre but in numerous small busnesses in the centre. It was mentioned in "Guide of the Importance of German Towns and Cities", pubished in Germany in August 1944, said "almost every house in this town center is a small workshop".
 *  Altogether 368 machines flew one of the consequence-fraughtest attacks of the Second World War and established in only 22 minutes of bombs in the total weight of 1575 tons on the gold city.
 * two thirds of the city were destroyed, to the city area related lie the ratio between 80 and 100 per cent. 1939 of still 4112 adjacents resident registered, here nobody lived goods in the city area "market place" more after February 1945 on years.
 *  23 of February 1945 in Pforzheim proceeds from 17.600 air-war-dead. The last Vorkriegsvolkszaehlung had resulted in a population of approximately 79,000 humans in May 1939. Thus approximately a fifth of the total population died. 
 * ''A list of the labour office of 1942 spoke of 2980 foreigners in Pforzheim. The exact number on 23 February of the forced laborers from the foreign country, died, cannot be determined any longer.

I would like to add from that source: Wega14 23:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * ''There were very probably war-relevant goals, war-crucially probably was none. Nevertheless also COMMAND was conscious to the British bomber and its Commanders-in-Chief Arthur T. Harris took in purchase that beside the industriellen goals inevitably residential buildings were met.
 * ''For the first time the city had emerged in November 1944 on a goal list of the allied air war strategists. She had belonged there to a selection of cities, to which on a five-stage scale the smallest priority was granted, which however for surface attacks are suitable became, because transportation facilities led by closely cultivated, fire-susceptible city. The railway facilities and roads actually served Pforzheims of the transfer and shift of troops and armaments. The fine-mechanical industry had changed over to a large extent since 1942 to arms production, which quite admits to the British and American decision makers was.

cleanup
Dropped the tag on because GraemeLeggett 17:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) wouldn't hurt to have some more wiki-linking in
 * 2) poor quality English - certainly in some sections

AFAICT it was an Altavista translation. I have now integrated what I thought worth keeping of the text into the main section and deleted the translation. The facts and figures which are still in text of the article, that I could not verify from the given references in the reference section, were imported from the Pforzheim page which contains the following at the end of the history section:
 * (Remark: This brief history is partly based on the German language brief history included in the Web site of the City of Pforzheim, a series of articles in Pforzheimer Zeitung during the first three months of 2005 published on the occasion of the 60th commemoration of Pforzheim's bombardment, and the book: Hans-Peter Becht: Pforzheim in der fruehen Neuzeit, Pforzheimer Geschichtsblaetter 7, Jan Thorbecke Verlag, Sigmaringen, 1989. The author M.H.)

It needs someone with access to these references to check them and add the necessary footnotes to the text. --Philip Baird Shearer 23:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Philip, ones and ones again, you give the sentence another meaning, as it had in the source. That isn't very exact work. sorry. Wega14 13:09, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Not sure what you mean by the last comment. The differences seem to be more style than substance/ --Philip Baird Shearer 17:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Template:not verified
There are still a number of facts given in this article which are not in the current written sources, or have not been identified as the sources. As the figures and some of the other statment do not seem unreasonable it would be a shame to removed them just because there is no source given, so for the moment I have placed the not verified template on the top in the hope that someone can come up with the original sources and add them to the notes. --Philip Baird Shearer 17:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * there are a lot of sources, but offline, written in tons of books, all german. How should that be brought to the net? Wega14 00:08, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi, I am the guy who ported most of the German Wikipedia article on Pforzheim to the English version, except for the history section, which I put together more or less from scratch based on all kinds of sources. I also wrote the air raid section without quoting sources, which eventually caused this mess. I am sorry for that, but it happens that I am very short of time, and doing it right is very, very time-consuming. But as you got so excited about it, I finally included most of the sources, not all yet. Of course, they are in German, but at least most of them can be accessed on the internet. So, you may choose to trust me (but can I really be trusted ? After all, I was one of those kids who spent their childhood playing in the rubble left by that air raid ! ) and eventually remove that sticker on the page, or you may not, in which case you will have to find some friends whom you can trust and who speak German well enough to understand the sources. Make your choice, but, please, do not eliminate my sources only because they are not in English. And by the way: I have a little more to say about the subject of "reasons for the raid" without any hard feelings, however I have to concentrate now on a multitude of issues at least until the middle of March and must delay those comments until then. In the meantime, thanks for your efforts and keep up the good work.

With my best wishes from Japan (no longer Pforzheim since early 80s but still caring very much for that heap of rubble on Wallberg), Hild 15:58, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the "Template:not verified" as it seems to me that with the work people have put in since I put it there this article now reaches the standard of verification that few other Wikipedia articles manage. Well done everyone it has been a pleasure working on this page with you. --Philip Baird Shearer 21:35, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

A heavy britsh war crime
It should be noted that this was one of many britsh warcrimes against civilans during ww2 in Germany. Pure massmuder comited from some britsh soldirs from high above. well knowing what they are doeing. it is not honour to something like that.The population of these cites were predomiantly women, childeren and elderly people (the most man were on the front lines). The enormous loss of historical buildings, books and documents of a 2000 year old city history should be consiedered in the article. I feel it completly inappropriate that some britsh wiki user (like mister Blard s.) try to withwash massmurders.--84.167.201.68 20:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The Blitz was the sustained bombing of Britain by Nazi Germany between 6 September 1940 and 10 May 1941,[1] during the Second World War. The Blitz hit many towns and cities across the country, but it began with the bombing of London for 76 consecutive nights.[5] By the end of May 1941, over 43,000 civilians, half of them in London, had been killed by bombing and more than a million houses were destroyed or damaged in London alone.[6][7]


 * London was not the only city to suffer Luftwaffe bombing during the Blitz. Other important military and industrial centres, such as Aberdeen, Barrow-in-Furness, Belfast, Bootle, Birkenhead, Wallasey, Birmingham, Bristol, Cardiff, Clydebank, Coventry, Exeter, Glasgow, Greenock, Sheffield, Swansea, Liverpool ,[8] Kingston upon Hull, Manchester, Portsmouth, Plymouth, Nottingham, Brighton, Eastbourne, Sunderland, and Southampton, suffered heavy air raids and high numbers of casualties. Hull was the most heavily bombed city after London with 85% of its buildings being destroyed or affected. Birmingham and Coventry were very badly affected because of the Spitfire and Tank plant being based in Birmingham and the many other munitions factories in Coventry. Coventry was almost totally destroyed


 * From here: The Blitz. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.71.28 (talk) 19:27, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I see no blatant attempt to "withwash" the article.HammerFilmFan (talk) 01:11, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Murder?
It states that the allied pilots were "murdered" by civilians. This has been changed to killed. Wallie (talk) 06:13, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually as legitimate Prisoners of War they were killed illegally - i.e., murdered. Civilians wouldn't have had any right to be involved anyway, aircrew prisoners were the responsibility of the Luftwaffe. 'Summarily murdered' is probably the correct phrase to use, which would have been the same correct phrase to use if a Luftwaffe crew had been unlawfully killed by British civilians when the boot had been on the other foot in 1940/41. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.71.28 (talk) 19:18, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

The pilots had committed war crimes. It is not surprising they were in turn murdered. And what of the crews of the US B-24 Liberator aircraft who "bombed the area around Kupferhammer and opened fire on crowds of civilians, leaving about 100 dead". Were they charged with murder or war crimes? Probably given a medal instead. We are always hearing aboutb Nazi war crimes, but never the allied ones.
 * As with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, don't start no somethin, won't be no something. You done dropped your pistol when you broke in the window-that's your ass I guess.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.170.233 (talk) 05:28, 23 February 2013 (UTC)


 * The hundreds of murders of bailed-out Allied aircrew by Germans were most certainly murders, since bailed-out aircrew were protected by the Geneva Convention, and quite a number of Germans were executed for those murders after the war. Only one bailed-out German airman was ever beaten to death by a British mob -- in London on 15 September 1940, before troops were able to intervene. It was not possible to identify or prosecute the perpetrators. In that case, the German bomber was believed to have been heading for Buckingham Palace in an attempt to kill the King (in fact it had already dropped its bombs on Battersea). The intercepting RAF fighter pilot, Sgt RT 'Artie' Holmes of 504 Sqn, was out of ammunition, so he rammed the bomber and chopped its tail off with his propeller. He then parachuted to safety. The bomber crashed on Victoria Station, oddly enough without killing anyone. This incident appears in the 1969 film Battle of Britain, where the fighter pilot is played by Edward Fox. (The bomber is portrayed as a Heinkel 111. It was actually a Dornier 17Z. And the interceptor was a Hurricane, not, as in the film, a Spitfire.) It's deeply regrettable that one of the bailed-out German crew -- the pilot, 27-year-old Oblt Robert Zehbe -- was attacked by an angry mob in Kennington, including women wielding pokers, and later died of his injuries after he was rescued by troops, but there wasn't any legal way of proceeding against those responsible. https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20100928/285855844430832 In Germany, on the other hand, such murders were actually encouraged and were often carried out by local Nazi officials. Believe it or not, in the Second World War, the Nazis were the bad guys. Khamba Tendal (talk) 19:40, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

The British did not use phosphorous bombs
"...even the rivers were burning as the phosphorus floated on the water". The British did not use phosphorous in incendiary bombs. They used aluminium/magnesium. German media frequently incorrectly reported "phosphorous".Rcbutcher (talk) 05:14, 31 March 2015 (UTC)


 * It's curious how often this comes up. German accounts constantly mention 'Phosphor', but there was very little of it about. The RAF did in fact use phosphorus in the 30lb (14kg) incendiary. This was a ballistic, aimable bomb and 24 of them could be packed into a Small Bomb Container ('SBC' or 'can'), which was not dropped but simply opened in the bomb bay to release the incendiaries into the airstream. The 30-pounder's main fuel was a petrol-and-resin paste (3.6kg of it) which filled the body of the bomb, but in the nose, along with the gunpowder detonator, there was 250-600g of phosphorus as a primer, to keep the main charge burning.


 * The principal incendiary weapon, however, was the ICI-developed 4-pounder, a hexagonal stick which was not ballistic. 236 of these could be loaded into an SBC. The 4-pounder was packed with pellets of thermite as igniters but the fuel was the magnesium-alloy body, which reached melting point in 25 seconds after detonation and burned for ten minutes. Harmless if it fell in the street or the garden, or if you threw it out of the window on a shovel or smothered it with sand; deadly if it was allowed to do its work inside a building. The industrial cities of Nazi Germany were destroyed mostly by the 4-pounder.


 * Harris wrote (Bomber Offensive, p.162) that the 30-pounder 'was not so good at raising fires as the four-pounder, but could at least be aimed; its use also had a marked effect on the morale of the enemy.' The continual, somewhat hysterical references to 'Phosphor' in German accounts suggest he was correct about the morale effect. The Reich government's own public-awareness propaganda about the 30-pounder, with its small phosphorus content, seems to have endowed the weapon with a psychological power far beyond its actual destructive capability.


 * In Operation Hydra, the Peenemunde raid of 17-18 August 1943, Bomber Command dropped 9,606 30-pounders, but 77,530 4-pounders. The 4-pounder's disadvantage was that it scattered freely in the airstream and often went to waste, landing miles from the aiming point. By late 1943, according to Harris, an aimable 500lb ballistic cluster incendiary (100 4-pounders in a frangible case with a ballistic tail, to be broken apart by barometric fuse at a pre-set altitude over target) was available, and a 1000lb model followed in late 1944, but Harris says these cluster bombs were unreliable. Even by the time of the Pforzheim attack, Lancasters were probably loaded for the most part with SBCs, plus a 4000-pounder to blow the windows out and take the roof-tiles off so that the incendiaries -- mostly magnesium 4-pounders -- could do their job.


 * The article's claim that 'even the rivers were burning as the phosphorus floated on the water' is obviously false, though there may be sources which make that mistaken claim. The proportion of 30-pounders was always small and there was usually less than half a kilo of phosphorus per bomb, the main fuel being, as noted, a petrol and resin paste. The Pforzheim firestorm was overwhelmingly caused by magnesium 4-pounders. And, as Harris observed in 1942, 'The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everybody else and nobody was going to bomb them. Well, they have sowed the wind and they will reap the whirlwind.' Khamba Tendal (talk) 19:12, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

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damage to historical buildings, artifacts, artwork
The damage done to the material civilization of Europe and Asia is one of the most distressing aspects of World War II. There should be a section on medieval buildings lost to the bombing, artwork destroyed, museums artifacts lost, etc. The RS's may swing heavily in the German language as far as numbers go. Any editors up for it? HammerFilmFan (talk) 01:17, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

RAF aircrew did not include the rank of major
The article talks of a South African RAF airmen who served as master bomb aimer on that raid and won the last WWll RAF VIctoria Cross. The article states he was a major. The RAF did not have majors. Perhaps he was the equivalent of a major, which is Squadron Leader?

Some commissioned officer British Army to RAF equivalents are;

Second Lieutenant - Pilot Officer

Lieutenant - Flying Officer

Captain - Flight Lieutenant

Major - Squadron Leader

Lieutenant Colonel - Wing Commander

Colonel - Group Captain

Brigadier - Air Commodore

Major General - Air Vice Marshal

Lieutenant General - Air Marshal

General - Air Chief Marshal

Field Marshal - Marshal of the Royal Air Force — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.96.30.119 (talk) 12:30, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
 * If you had bothered to read Ted Swales' article, you would have your answer : he was a South African Air Force officer, not a (British) RAF one. 217.167.255.177 (talk) 11:20, 2 November 2020 (UTC)