Talk:Bonnie Tyler/GA2

GA Review
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Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) 12:41, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

This has been in the queue for ages, so it's about time somebody gave it a go. I don't know why I thought Bonnie Tyler was American and used her real name, but both of those misconceptions have been demolished through a quick look at this article, so I'm hoping to learn more.

I see this is the second trip to GA. I can see numerous edits and improvements since the article since then, so I'm not going to quickfail it for the same reasons as previously.

Lead

 * The lead could do with a small bit of reorganisation. I would keep the first sentence as it, but for the rest of the paragraph I would put a very brief overview of what she is best known for ie: major hit singles and albums and sales figures. Then start the biographical details on the next paragraph. The last sentence in the entire lead ie: "Tyler has been referred to as the 'International First Lady of Rock',[7][8] and two of her songs are among the best-selling singles of all time." would be appropriate to put up-front at this position.
 * "She was born in Skewen, Wales". I'm not sure we need "Wales" as the opening sentence tells us she's Welsh. I think for the lead, just put "Skewen" with link, and let the body expand on where that is. Things are slightly complicated in that West Glamorgan didn't exist in 1951, so it's not factually accurate to say that. In fact, now that what used to be Glamorgan is now depicted as individual councils (in this case Neath Port Talbot), it might simply be better to say "Skewen, near Neath". (See, for example, Phil Lynott where the infobox changes between "Staffordshire" (correct as of his date of birth) to "West Midlands" (correct today) from time to time).
 * "Her distinctive husky voice, which is a result of an operation to remove vocal nodules, has had her compared to artists such as Rod Stewart and Kim Carnes." - this is slightly disjointed. How about "Tyler has a distinctive husky voice, resulting from an operation to remove vocal nodules in the mid-1970s. Her singing has been compared to Rod Stewart and Kim Carnes."

I'll add comments on the body later. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  12:41, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Early life

 * "Gaynor Hopkins was born in Skewen, Wales on 8 June 1951" - the date and place of birth is not in the source given. According to this Irish Times source, she was born in the Mumbles, some distance away.
 * The next two sentences are cited to a Daily Mail piece, but I can't obviously see where the claims for her parents' background are in that article, which is rather gossipy in nature and not a particularly good source
 * "and there was always music on in the house." - when citing a radio piece, it is useful to add the specific time that the quotation appears. Same issue for the next source, also a radio interview
 * What makes this youtube video a reliable source
 * "In April 1969, when she was aged 17" - suggest "In April 1969, aged 17"
 * "Hopkins's aunt" - I think the convention here is to "Hopkins' aunt"
 * "finishing in second place (losing to an accordionist), and won £1" - again, audio interview needs a time to make verification easier
 * "Two years later," - is that two years after the local talent contest or after auditioning for Bobby Wayne & The Dixies
 * "(not related to the 1980s British dance band of the same name)" - this might sit better as a footnote
 * "It was then that she decided to adopt the stage name of "Sherene Davis" - the source says "Shereen Davis".
 * "She quoted Mickie Most as saying" - do you mean this is what Most said or what she thought he said
 * "and months later" - this is a bit too colloquial, suggest "a few months later"

Career

 * "which did not garner any chart success" - I don't think "garner" is the best word to use here
 * "The single did not find immediate chart success" - suggest "The single did not chart immediately"
 * "remaining in the top of the charts for ten weeks" - this needs rewording, "top of the charts" implies it hit number one
 * "She was voted sixth in Record Mirror's "Brightest Hope for '77'" category, leading to the release of her debut album, The World Starts Tonight, in 1977" - I don't think the Record Mirror's opinion would have directly led to the album being released?
 * "With the lead single" ... "a second single" - it would be better to mention these by name
 * "The World Starts Tonight was viewed as being" - make it clear that this is AllMusic's Tomas Mureika's opinion
 * "which made Bonnie Tyler an international star." - per WP:LASTNAME this should simply be "Tyler", and a "star" in whose opinion?
 * "Her vocals were instantly compared to Rod Stewart's" - compared by whom?
 * "With those two singles Tyler held the third and fourth spot in the Norwegian singles chart for a week in 1978." - is this important to mention here? A lot of this paragraph reads "Tyler's next single was 'x', it reached 'a' and 'b' in the charts here, 'c' and 'd' in the charts there, then her next single was 'y', it reached ...." A lot of this prose would better represented as a list at the bottom of the article, as a bland list of releases and chart positions detracts from trying to find out background information about them
 * "with no success in the US," .... "and number 42 in the US Country charts" - these two claims, a sentence apart contradict each other
 * "the album only saw mediocre success in Europe" - but the next sentence says it hit the top 20
 * "The single "My Guns Are Loaded" peaked at ... " - the rest of this sentence is unsourced
 * "Of all four of Tyler's albums with Scott and Wolfe's involvement, this album received the most positive review" - I'm confused, just a minute ago we were told that Record Mirror hated it!
 * "a more upbeat collection of songs compared to her previous album" - in whose opinion?
 * "Phil Hendricks from Cherry Records said that Tyler" - why is this quotation relevant here?
 * "Tyler released four albums for RCA Records from 1977 to 1981" - this is repetition, we've just been told this
 * ""I didn't even like it as I was recording it," Tyler told People magazine" - Per this RfC, consensus is that People can be used a source but with caution. I would strongly recommend finding another source if you can, or removing this
 * "She signed with Columbia Records in 1982 " - I can't find that claim in the People source given
 * "Meat Loaf later claimed the song was originally written for him, but that Epic Records refused to pay Steinman's copyright fee" - the Herald Sun is a tabloid and therefore cannot be used in a BLP
 * "reaching No. 1 in the UK and Norway." - this is the third time I've seen Norway mentioned here. Is there any particular reason we're paying attention to this country in this article?
 * "Her comeback on the US chart was at a time .... " - this sentence is talking about the "second British invasion" of the early 1980s and I feel is irrelevant for this article
 * "In addition, the BBC requested that Tyler represent the United Kingdom at the 1983 Eurovision Song Contest, though she turned this down also" - don't need "also", plus there is a "disputed" tag on the end of this sentence
 * "Switching to East West Records in the late 1990s" - this entire paragraph is completely unsourced. That's not acceptable for a BLP I'm afraid
 * "In 2001, Tyler released a Greatest Hits compilation in conjunction with her 50th birthday" - this paragraph is unsourced

Collaborations

 * "Tyler did not record any duets while signed to RCA Records between 1976 and 1980,...." - this entire paragraph is unsourced
 * "For the soundtrack of the animated TV show The Dreamstone (1990), Tyler recorded" - this entire paragraph is unsourced
 * Two paragraphs in the "Bilingual duets" section are completely unsourced

Summary

 * I think I'm going to have to stop there, as while the article is better than before, I'm afraid there just seems to be far too much work to get this to GA status in a short space of time.
 * My first concern is that the quality of sources used seems to come from snippets of radio interviews and tabloid or tabloidesque newspapers, and there are still unsourced sections, which for a BLP is unfortunately a showstopper. To get a BLP to GA standard in my experience, you are far better off getting hold of an official biography and using that as your main source. I can't find a good example of one on a quick Google books search, and perhaps one doesn't exist. However, some of the broadsheet newspaper sources you've used (such as the Observer) could be mined further for information.
 * My second is that a lot of the prose, as clarified by the comments above is quite stilted and there doesn't appear to be a coherent narrative through it. Have a look at Katy Perry for some idea of how we can achieve this, and see how the prose flows well, rather than just being a list of single and album releases with chart positions. They are of course mentioned there, but broken up with comments about how she felt about stages of her career. I would see if you can badger to give you a hand with sourcing and copyediting if possible, as if I'm honest, large sections of the article could do with careful rewriting and copyediting. Sorry, especially as you had to wait so long for a review :-( Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)  17:30, 11 December 2014 (UTC)