Talk:Bordeaux

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Umm...
I'm thinking someone went a little overboard with all the pictures. Lmz00 06:44, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I would like to add latitude and longitude, but I can find how to edit the infobox. Please somebody, add this info :

Bordeaux, France 	44°50 N 	0°31 W

source : http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001769.html

also, could someboy add a edit caption on the infobox


 * You can edit the infobox here Template:Bordeaux infobox. Rl 12:09, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Why do a template if this template is only used on this page? antoinou2958 22:49, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

New Infobox Template proposition
I'd like to bring your attention to a new - or other - version of the "Large French Cities" infobox presently at use in a few French cities pages. The present version is much too large, partly because it consecrates too much space to information having little importance to French demography and an only distant and indirect relevence to the city itself. Instead I propose to follow a less cumbersome model closer to that used by the New York City article - you can view the new version in the Paris talk page here. Please view and comment. T HE P ROMENADER 22:17, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * As a result of discussion, there is an updated template available for perusal in its 'published ' form (filled with data) here - all comments welcome. --  T HE P ROMENADER  07:18, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Ecclesiastical History?
What is it with this appearing in all the city articles? It far outweighs any other topic, yet is of only one particular interest presented from one viewpoint. This sort of subject can only be encyclopedic under its proper heading, that is to say "Ecclesiastical history of Bordeaux." Please move it to its proper place. T HE P ROMENADER 23:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Not only is it a matter of opinion whether such sections should be moved out at all, the phrase 'proper place' is not only disputable in its intention but positively improper since it is far better, if you must move it out (which is your option, so your 'trouble' -a simple cut and paste without having to bother with creating and resolving any (red) links is done in a jiffy- by choice and gloriously messes up redirects) to give it a more general name, (arch)diocese or (arch)bishopric as the case be, since sililar articles exist, not pages called ecclesiastical history, which was meant as a section header but makes little sense on its own, so other contributions on non-historical aspects of dioceses can be fitted in. Fastifex 13:16, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps I should say, concerning your contribution, 'its own place' means 'accurately descriptive namespace' and 'space ample enough for all the detail it contains'. I will not be getting into a discussion about the details of this, although I do see the sense in your "Bishopric of" rather than "Ecclesiatical history of". I would much rather that you, the more knowledgable on the subject in which you are contributing, undertake this extraction/article creation. Thank you if you do.   T HE P ROMENADER  20:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Flags
Deleted flags as per this | diff, this article WP:FLAGS, this debate, and this admin. One down, umpteen thousand to go. Pedro | Talk  21:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

climate
Can anybody comment on the climate? Is it Mediterranean? 66.183.217.31 19:11, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Officially the climate of Bordeaux is not considered as mediterranean, but as oceanic. (the city is a few 50 kilometers from the Atlantic ocean, and 350 km from the mediterranean sea). That said it is a warm oceanic climate; it can be very hot, and generally not really cold: a lot of mediterranean vegetation is well adapted to Bordeaux's climate. The main difference with a mediterranean climate would be that Bordeaux has more humid summers, while the mediterranean is VERY dry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.224.59.166 (talk) 23:20, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Number of habitants
There is a problem with the introduction, aires urbaines no longer exist and are replaced by aire d'attraction. Those of us acquainted with french city planning and Bordeaux in particular, know it doesn't change much because in the case of Bordeaux the same peculiarities remain :

The fact that the nearby city of Libourne is not considered as part of the aire d'attraction, because the INSEE considers it is a pole urbain of its own (whereas 20% + of its workforce works in Bordeaux, making it part of the AAV De Facto according to INSEE's own definition) makes the measuring of Bordeaux's aire d'attraction somewhat complex, hence quite unreliable.

Bordeaux has this peculiarity that it has several satelite cities like Langon, Libourne, Arcachon that are very close and have a high level of interaction with the core of the Area (commuting with the RER metropolitain, % of workforce working in the core, high dependence on the core's infrastructure) but still, form small semi functional pole urbains of their own. For that reason, their absence in the counting of the Aire Urbaine / Aire d'attraction should be mentioned

That is why the best way to understand the population of big cities in France, remains to count the population at the Metropole scale, because the Metropole is not a vague statistic object that changes from a context to the other, but a clear perimeter. Above all, it is the only that has a technical, political, financial existence and progressively seizes more and more functions from the municipality and the department as you all know.

In the end, if we are to display the info in order of importance, the Metropole de Bordeaux population should be shown in 2d position and not in 3rd position.Precision on the election mode at the EPCI shouldn't be given here (it's the duty of a specific article), or, if we are to have that level of precision then a balanced approach should also state the importance and relevance of the EPCI. In the end that would be too much info for an introduction, where we're supposed to only give numbers — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.190.176.182 (talk) 18:26, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

The numbers of habitants mentioned in the introduction (of one million and 1.200.000) appear exaggerated to me. In fact, this is the first text telling me that Bordeaux has one million habitants.

The city itself has around 230.000 habitants (which is certainly a misleading number for comparisons to other cities), la CUB counts 660.000 habitants.

While the CUB is an important regional administrative structure I hadn't heard too much about the Aire Urbaine of Bordeaux yet, but even that region remains below the limit of one million. The French wikipedia reports 925.253 habitants (as of 1999).

In my opinion it is more than a bit exaggerated to include towns like Arcachon. The value for the CUB gives a better impression. de:Waifar 84.178.88.165 15:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Further below I found: "The city contains a diverse range of people. Much of the population is French, but there are sizable groups of Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Germans and North Africans. The metropolis has developed rapidly over the last decades and is facing urban sprawl." First, Bordeaux has a large foreign-born population. However, the countries of origin don't seem to be the most important ones. You might as well mention British and several others. Definitively, many immigrants from the former French colonies are living in Bordeaux, e.g. Algeria or Ivory Coast. Bordeaux attracts also many students from Africa. Second, "has developed rapidly over the last decades" is questionable. Alain Juppé is largely popular in Bordeaux because they consider that the city hadn't developed much in the decades before his election in 1995. 84.178.88.165 16:07, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

History misconception
It is stated in the article that Bordueax became part of the 'English realm' whereas it is the other way around. The realm of England became part of the Angevin Empire and any other interpretation of this is only the ubiquitious English centred attitude to European history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.195.144 (talk) 20:43, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Please do go ahead and change it as necessary, if you're still monitoring this. I've also raised a question at Talk:House of Plantagenet.--A bit iffy (talk) 08:12, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Someone has responded at Talk:House of Plantagenet saying that England was French. Hence I've simply removed the part about it being in the English realm.--A bit iffy (talk) 08:00, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Please, the Kingdom of England was not 'French' under the Plantagenet Kings! In origin the founder of the Planategent dynasty was certainly a French count, but the origin of the person wearing the crown does not determine the nationality of the State! Following from this, Aquitaine (Guyenne) and it's capital Bordeaux was part of the territories belonging to the King of England. However, it is also true that this did not make Aquitaine English either! Merely, the Duke of Aquitaine was a foreign King who swore fealty to the King of France for his possession(s) (except during the period just after the Treaty of Bretigny (1360), which made the Duchy of Aquitaine a sovereign state ultimately answerable to the King of England alone, through his appointed Duke, Edward 'The Black Prince' Prince of Wales). Ds1994 (talk) 19:35, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Moved sections around to try to fix technical problem
I moved some sections around (History upwards, Demographics downwards) because the Climate subsection had been running across the Infobox. Another editor had attempted to fix this with this edit by adding extra blank lines, but that still wasn't satisfactory to my mind. If someone's got a better solution please go ahead.--A bit iffy (talk) 07:39, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Redirect from Bordelaise
I don't think there should be a redirect from "Bordelaise" to this article. I was looking for the "Bordelaise Sauce" article, and got dumped here instead. Perhaps a disambiguation page? I'm a novice at these things, so I'm not going to attempt any change myself. But maybe someone could help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.182.19.18 (talk) 20:56, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Slavery
The word "slave" is only mentioned once in this article. Yet slavery played a massive part in the city's history and largely explains why it became so rich in the 18th C. I would argue that this topic deserves a section of its own. --Actarus000 (talk) 13:39, 27 March 2009 (UTC) this is dum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.41.2.70 (talk) 19:57, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Climate section error
It shows wiki code. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IoanC (talk • contribs) 13:25, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Transport
The piece mentioning Eiffel's bridge surely needs removing from the road sub-section to rail, but it is out of date anyway, the new railway bridge has completely replaced it, perhaps someone who knows more about this bridge than I do could write something. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.222.211 (talk) 17:49, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Demographics
Unless someone can find a reference that Urban Sprawl has become a problem in Bordeaux then to say that it has become a problem is not a neutral point of view. One could take the opposing view that the Urban Sprawl has enabled economic growth but again not a neutral POV. So I have changed the text to read ... with urban sprawl - but maybe the whole sentence should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.174.23.139 (talk) 05:20, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. Urban sprawl is, in fact, becoming a problem in Bordeaux because of the city is currently dealing with issues related to it. In 1999, the population was 215K and as of 2008, it was estimated at over 250K. It is believed to have grown further since then. While we are still investigating the reasons for this, we believe the much of this influx has to do with a growing number of people moving here from other countries, and students coming to the university. However, findings are at this point, still inconclusive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.224.47.183 (talk) 14:22, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Bridges
The section on bridges is vague as to dates when they were expected to be opened. I've tagged article as needing updating. Trafford09 (talk) 12:55, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Burdigala
Just a comment about the phrase "the Bituriges Vivisci, who named the town Burdigala, probably of Aquitainian origin"

If we write "Burdin Galda" in google translating from Basque to English,the answer is “iron melt in”. Burdi gala / Burdin galda -> after more than 2000 years the difference are just two consonants. In my opinion it is more than probably aquitanian and I think is quite strange thing in celtic people chossing an aquitanian name for their city. Nireizena (talk) 23:44, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

American vs British English.
According to WP:TIES, the only time we go exclusively with one country's variety is for strong national ties. France is not an English-speaking country. There is no reason to use Commonwealth English over a different variety that was used first in the article's history. Red Slash 00:21, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

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Sons and daughter of the town
Today I added some people, if the list becomes too long, maybe a separate article is necessary. Regards--Buchbibliothek (talk) 16:01, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

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Largest Square?
The article says... "Esplanade des Quinconces, the largest square in Europe."

But the article listing squares by size does not agree.

--23.119.204.117 (talk) 02:00, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Indeed. And it's quite far down the list if you include European Russia. Thanks, have updated. --A bit iffy (talk) 05:58, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Metro population of 2,195,335 does not make any sense
I have clicked on the supposed source but cannot find such a number anywhere.. Even if you consider the whole department of Gironde (most of it is rural), you would only find roughly 1,600,000 inhabitants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.83.45.94 (talk) 11:13, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Merovingian/Carolingian period cleanup
At present the 6th-9th century historical material Is confusing and occasionally inaccurate (eg not distinguishing between the two Hunalds). Perhaps more significantly it’s not about Bordeaux, nor are there more than the occasional reference.

I’m having a think about how best to compress, tidy and get some proper citations. Will post more here before I get to it, in case anyone is particularly keen on elements of the current text (which for reference is copied below).

Iower (talk)

"In the late 6th century the city re-emerged as the seat of a county and an archdiocese within the Merovingian kingdom of the Franks, but royal Frankish power was never strong. The city started to play a regional role as a major urban center on the fringes of the newly founded Frankish Duchy of Vasconia. Around 585 Gallactorius was made count of Bordeaux and fought the Basques.

In 732, the city was plundered by the troops of Abd er Rahman who stormed the fortifications and overwhelmed the Aquitanian garrison. Duke Eudes mustered a force to engage the Umayyads, eventually engaging them in the Battle of the River Garonne somewhere near the river Dordogne. The battle had a high death toll, and although Eudes was defeated he had enough troops to engage in the Battle of Poitiers and so retain his grip on Aquitaine.

In 773, following his father Eudes's death, the Aquitanian duke Hunald led a rebellion to which Charles responded by launching an expedition that captured Bordeaux. However, it was not retained for long, during the following year the Frankish commander clashed in battle with the Aquitanians but then left to take on hostile Burgundian authorities and magnates. In 745 Aquitaine faced another expedition where Charles's sons Pepin and Carloman challenged Hunald's power and defeated him. Hunald's son Waifer replaced him and confirmed Bordeaux as the capital city (along with Bourges in the north).

During the last stage of the war against Aquitaine (760–768), it was one of Waifer's last important strongholds to fall to the troops of King Pepin the Short. Charlemagne built the fortress of Fronsac (Frontiacus, Franciacus) near Bordeaux on a hill across the border with the Basques (Wascones), where Basque commanders came and pledged their loyalty (769).

In 778, Seguin (or Sihimin) was appointed count of Bordeaux, probably undermining the power of the Duke Lupo, and possibly leading to the Battle of Roncevaux Pass[9]-. In 814, Seguin was made Duke of Vasconia, but was deposed in 816 for failing to suppress a Basque rebellion. Under the Carolingians, sometimes the Counts of Bordeaux held the title concomitantly with that of Duke of Vasconia. They were to keep the Basques in check and defend the mouth of the Garonne from the Vikings when they appeared in c. 844. In Autumn 845, the Vikings were raiding Bordeaux and Saintes, count Seguin II marched on them but was captured and executed."

Iower (talk)

An alternative structure (subject to change depending on what source material is available and relevance to the city) could be:


 * 6th century (perhaps little changed from existing first paragraph)
 * context of cross-Pyrenees struggle for dominance, conflict with the Basques and Umayyads, and growing central royal power of the Carolinginians, plus the holding together of Aquitaine and Gascony for which Bordeaux was a more natural chief city than for either area independently
 * implications for the city - 732, fealty to Charles Martel and his descendants, etc.
 * existing paragraph (not quoted above) about first Viking raid

Links to include or consult (but not repeat):
 * Count of Bordeaux
 * Duchy of Aquitaine (noting Bordeaux is in Gascony proper for much of this period)
 * Duchy of Gascony
 * fr:Bordeaux good on 6th century and Viking/Norman raids (nil in between) plus a good contextual paragraph
 * fr:Histoire de Bordeaux very good generally including a lovely tenth century description of the city:

"In the tenth century the merchant and traveller Ibrahim ibn Ya'qub described the city thus:

"Burdhil [Bordeaux]. Ville du côté de la France, riche en eau, en fruits et en céréales. La plupart des habitants sont chrétiens. Elle a des bâtiments élevés construits sur d'énormes colonnes. Sur son rivage, on trouve de l'ambre de bonne qualité. On raconte que lorsque l'hiver est très rigoureux et leur interdit de naviguer, les gens se rendent dans une île proche, nommée Anwâtâ (l'île du Médoc), où il y a une espèce d'arbre appelée mâdiqa (medica). En cas de famine, ils écorcent cet arbre et trouvent entre le liber et le bois une substance blanche (l'aubier) dont ils se nourrissent pendant un mois, deux mois ou même plus, jusqu'à ce que le temps s'améliore. Il y a un mont dominant la ville et l'Océan, avec une statue au sommet, comme pour dire aux gens de ne plus s'aventurer sur l'Océan, afin que ceux qui quitteraient Burdhil pour prendre la mer y renoncent.""

Iower (talk) 12:29, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

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