Talk:Border Collie/Archive 1

Just the facts, Ma'am, just the facts
Am I way off base, or is the black-and-white far and away the most common colour? Nothing against tris, which I happen to like. And how many links to clubs and forums do we need? WP is not a link repository, people keep telling me. We could use some cleanup. Quill 02:05, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Huh, I have no idea how to pare down the links. I don't really have a good idea which of all the registries are the key ones, but there are most assuredly 2 or 3 in the U.S. at least. Oh, yeah, and tris are OK, but blue merles take the cake. ;-)  I was at an agility trial a couple of months ago where a competitor asked me what breed my dog was, and I said BC, and they said they'd never seen or heard of a blue merle BC before--they were surprised when I was able to turn around and point out some others and name several additional ones in the area. Apparently they had never realized that they were BCs because they were blue merle & not B&W.  I wonder how much that lack of knowledge or familiarity shapes "the common perception"?  Elf | Talk 03:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 * That's just it--I never said "the common perception" was the right one. The general still call that poor lady "Princess Diana"...Quill 22:06, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Two of the links in this section were dead, and one went to a web forum.  So I removed those three.   (if you guys feel the webforum is somehow a signifigant site in referece to border collies, feel free to add it back.    I figure this helps a tiny amount :-/ - Trysha (talk) 18:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

yellow
There are yellow border collies. I have one of my own!!!! Rubedeau 02:30, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

And you are right. The terms for these "yellow" BCs are gold, yellow, lemon. They all stem from the red BCs and then depends on breeding and genetics to determine the degree of the color. We have one that is peach and white. Very rare coloring.

There are also lilac border collies which technically comes from brown. I own a blue border collie which is dark grey.

Photo request
Why is this page still on the requested breed photos list? It seems to have plenty of good quality images. --Pharaoh Hound 19:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

CBCA Registration Edit
Just a note on changing the wording for the entry on Canadian Border Collie Association registry. The line originally noted that registration was based on herding ability. As with conformation registries and others registration is based on sire and dam registry with the association and has nothing to do with ability. Even the most non-herding-oriented dog can be registered as long as its parents are. CMacMillan 13:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Excelent, I am sure that Werner would approve. You version is more accurate, the CBCA criteria were designed to allow ISDA dogs to move freely into Canada.cmacd 16:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Possible GDFL violation from this and other dog breed pages
I know this isn't exactly the right forum in which to bring this up, but I am not very familiar with the Wikipedia policy regarding GDFL violations for other websites copying Wikipedia material without reference, nor have I personally contributed any of the material on this page which has been copied. However, I found during some web browsing on dog breeds that the site www.dogbreedadvice.com appears to have copied a great deal of information from this page and pages on other dog breeds, without noticeable attribution to Wikipedia. An example can be seen at ; most of the other pages about specific dog breeds appear to have been copied wholesale from the Wikipedia entry on that breed, as well, again with no attribution that I could find. This is of course a violation of the GFDL, and also does a disservice to the hardworking Wikipedians who brought this article up to a high enough standard that it has become worth copying. (Yay, they're copying us! Boo, they're not giving us credit!) I'm sure a polite note to the administrators of that site advising them to provide a link to the source of their material would be sufficient, but, as I said, I'm not really sure about the standard operating procedure here, so I'd like to request that a more experienced Wikipedian than I take the case. Geoff 08:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Temperament section, two dogs
There are several places where it is stated that the very sad but too common lack of mental and physical training of border collies can be alleviated by having two dogs. It may just be me, but it seems it has been put into the sentences after they were written. That is the first concern, the second is my opinion that this is incorrect, that if you do not have the time for one border collie, getting another is not going to help. But my opinion is worthless, as this needs to be referenced. So I am planning on removing the statements about the second dog, unless some reasonable references can be found. mceder (u t c) 17:35, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The old Usenet FAQ by April Quist, ( http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/breeds/bordercollies.html ) is probaly the definative reference and says nothing about two dogs exercising each other. I have 2 BC dogs and one plays with my spaniel (all day if she gets the chance) and the other one will veg in the corner if allowed to do so.  2 BC's in that case would not keep them entertained.  cmacd 18:35, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed all references from the Temperament section about two dogs. mceder (u t c) 09:08, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

NCL in Australian Show Lines only?
Where in the world did the concept that NCL has been found "solely in Border Collies from Australian and New Zealand show lines" come from? The majority have been identified in Australia - partially as the home of the primary researcher, and partially because of its prevelance - but has been seen in other countries. 32.97.182.172 14:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)]]

weight
i came to this article expecting to see what a border collie weighs. similar information is found on the cocker spaniel and labrador page immediately. Can someone familiar with the breed add that? SchmuckyTheCat 20:18, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * [Quill shrugs] Not really.  The ANKC breed standard (originating country) does not specify a weight.  These are working dogs; the only specification is that they should not be 'overweight'.  The USBCC says there is no standard, they are 'in general' a medium sized dog, 25-55 pounds--take your pick....
 * Quill 23:07, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * actually I will take both, I have one at 25 and one close to fifty, bth from the same father but different mothers.cmacd 18:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Request for Cleanup
This article is in need of some dusting. There are similar and repetative sections and it could use with some bias removal and streamlining of the content. I wanted to clarify the list of dog activities at the end and have it better match the list stated earlier in the text. Perhaps a mass reworking of the sections is in order. Even this talk page is a bit of a mess with that whole OLD copyright issue and lassie and such. 67.162.135.164 03:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Headline text
Specifically, adding a bit more history further back, as this is an old breed from even older foundation stock, as well as adding classic photos and sources that describe the dog and its function. There are sources for the BC (then know simply as a Shepherd's Dog) that go back to the 1570s.--Dublinrex 08:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Goal: Grade A Article
The DogWiki project has graded this article a B. An A article which is to be featured in a few days is the "Beagle" breed article. I think it would be beneficial (and in accordance with the DogProject and DogBreed Project) to model this article after the Beagle article, not only to help maintain a NPOV but to create a consistency with Wikipedia as a whole and bring this article up to an exemplar level. I hope some of the other IP address editors will join me in creating accounts and reading up on the expected quality for articles and the "style manual" for dog breed articles in particular.

We can create a scholarly level article that makes better use of references and avoids stooping into the debates between the working folk and the show folk (they have their own forums for opinions, we can keep this article Encyclopedia worthy!). Most of the recent editing issues seem to stem from poorly  --71.109.167.164 (talk) 22:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)Italic textworded content instead of fundamental differences in FACT.

Final Fantasy reference
I've played the game, and I really don't believe than Angelo is a Border Collie.. she's too stocky, and doesn't really have the right coloring. Her marks are more those of an Aussie. Also, after searching around in some Final Fantasy guide sites, I've found that the Final Fantasy Wiki backs up my opinion

I haven't edited the article yet, because I wanted to run this by the community first. GenerationalSavant (talk) 02:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Breed issue, again
Wow. I had heard that the AKC vs. ABC issue was huge, but I guess I didn't realize how much it would infiltrate nearly every edit.

"The many people who depend on the breed for their livelihood in managing livestock know that Border collies bred strictly to work are the best representatives of the original premier livestock working breed. Breeding for "beauty contests" has long been understood to water down this ability."

and...

"However, many people who own Border Collies as pets and also compete with them in the wide variety of dog sports available to them prefer to have Border Collies who come from working lines, not show lines, because the intelligence, drive, and athleticism are preserved over a lush coat or standard size and weight. The future shape of this breed is still very much in question and is largely dependant on whether working breeders will accept being marginalized or whether they can educate people to appreciate the breed for what it really is, a premier livestock working dog."

A little POV there? Sources maybe? "Many people who own ... prefer to have Border Collies who come from working lines..."? Really? Not that I've experienced but I could easily be wrong. Again, source?

C'mon people, we can do better than that and still give weight to the AKC vs. ABC issue. Try to see the sides and it might help with the POV. If I said "Many breeders believe that breeding strictly working dogs is responsible for the widespread Border Collie Eye Anomoly defect, as well as predisposition for seizures and IMHA" would you see the POV more clearly? -CMacMillan 17:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yep. Need some numbers and facts here rather than unsupported opinion. Too many weasel words and a lack of a nuetral position in this section. Trial results here in Australia show that both pedigreed ANKC and other BC's are used in agility competition. It should be possible to get some actual numbers for the various dog sports for various codes showing what type of dogs are running in the events. As a random sample I looked at results for a trial in West Australia and saw 9 ANKC purebred dogs (one a show champion) and 4 associate non-purebred dogs had qualifying runs. This does not necessarily mean that most Austrlalian competitors prefer ANKC registered dogs or that purebred dogs are better than non-purebred dogs. Figures simply show what dogs are currently used, so they can help people form their own opinion. I'm not sure of the situation in other countries, but it's also worth remembering that people breeding dogs under a certain registry are not necessarily breeding 'show dogs' anyway. Breeders also breed specifically for performance events as well. --Bcsr4ever 23:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I cut the two paras:

"Some people believe that the emphasis placed on appearance might ruin the breed for its traditional livestock work because breeding for appearance eliminates emphasis on intelligence and working ability. Others believe that, in today's world, where livestock work is uncommon, the beauty of the breed is the factor that should be preserved. The many people who depend on the breed for their livelihood in managing livestock know that Border collies bred strictly to work are the best representatives of the original premier livestock working breed. Breeding for "beauty contests" has long been understood to water down this ability."

"However, many people who own Border Collies as pets and also compete with them in the wide variety of dog sports available to them prefer to have Border Collies who come from working lines, not show lines, because the intelligence, drive, and athleticism are preserved over a lush coat or standard size and weight. The future shape of this breed is still very much in question and is largely dependant on whether working breeders will accept being marginalized or whether they can educate people to appreciate the breed for what it really is, a premier livestock working dog."

A brief opinion about a complex debate (which I tend to agree with for the most part) but needs to be more neutral. Dicussion? --Bcsr4ever 16:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the argument deserves an article on its own? I don't necessarily disagree with the theory given what AKC judging has done to German Shepherds, Golden Retrievers, and Labradors in particular, but I don't believe that both sides are right either. AKC judges have a lot to answer for when you see Shepherds that can barely walk on twisted hind legs and Labs with unhealthy weight. What I do believe is that it has a place in mention on the Border Collie page, just not this pervasive thread running through every paragraph! What about other countries, by the way? The CKC in Canada doesn't recognize the breed - eliminating it from agility (foolishly in my view). What about Australia and Great Britain who have so much more claim to the working breed? --CMacMillan 03:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Border collies are only excluded from the CKC agility competions, not the more popular AAC competions Agility Association of Canada. Pure bred BCs in Canada are registered by the CBCA cmacd 20:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe we need an entry explaining that the debate exits, something like:


 * ===The Working versus Conformation Debate===


 * As with other working breeds, a division exists between registries promoting working ability and those promoting a conformation breed standard with accusations that breeding to a conformation standard will diminish the role of the breed in traditional livestock work since does not concetrate on intelligence and working ability. The future development of this breed will be influenced by which standards of breeding are most used and what activities Border collies will be involved in.


 * And then maybe point that to a separate article as suggested. This problem is not just with the BC, but with kelpies and other working breeds. As for Australia, there are working dogs and show dogs, but show dogs dominate as far as any registry goes. Farmers just have some dogs. For many years only purebred ANKC dogs could compete in ANKC dog sports (and that was the only game for a long time) in my state, so when we started in dog sports we selected and bred performance dogs (and working dogs) from ANKC lines. We use those dogs on a working cattle property and they do well if selected and bred for work, but generally the show dogs are bred for a quiet nature and way too fluffy coat. These days people do just breed ANKC dogs for performance (agility, etc) and they are less fluffy and more active, and of course many are bred (badly) just for the pet market, which is probably the worst thing for any working breed (or any breed). Anyway, now all states in Australia allow non-pedigree dogs to enter, so there are more of the non-fluffy and working types... --Bcsr4ever 07:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Clarifying "Amusing" Removal
I removed this sentence:
 * It can be quite amusing to watch a border collie attempt to herd a handful of seagulls several hundred feet in the air.

I don't want to be too much of a stickler - and not that it's not amusing - but the sentence doesn't seem to have a place in an encyclopaedic article. CMacMillan 05:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it's part of the appeal of the breed. I don't know where that sentence went but if you are listing reasons why people keep the breed, it might belong. I've watched a BC herd a three-year old human toddler and the same one herd a foal, a foal with a very tolerant mother; herding horses is usually dangerous. 65.79.173.135 (talk) 19:04, 13 June 2008 (UTC)Will in New Haven

Smooth Coat cross picture
If no one has any major objections, I'm going to remove the "Smooth Coated Border Collie cross" picture.

It's a mixed breed that looks more Australian Cattle Dog than Border Collie. While it may be a popular Australian working dog mix -I can't confirm or contradict that statement - it really doesn't have much place in this article. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by CMacMillan (talk • contribs).


 * OK by me, although it looks more like a BC than an ACD to me. Elf | Talk 21:41, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I thought that it was possible to have a purebred smooth BC. Why is the picture of a cross even up there to begin with?

And as an aside, why are Border Terriers supposed to be the most suitable companions for BCs? Why not another high-energy herding breed? I'm curious here--I keep mostly terriers, not BCs.

Mythicaldog 11:59, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I removed both. Thanks. Elf | Talk 17:18, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

In my uncited anecdotal experience the ACD x BC is quite a common stray in shelters in North Queensland (Australia). This may or may not be representative of the actual proportion of these dogs in the region. They usually have a double coat of medium length (a little more or less than an inch long), black and white pattern with the white replaced by ticking, the full white-tipped border collie tail, either a full or half mask and brown eyes. Size and build are variable, as is ear type. Just in case anyone was wondering =). I have one (from the shelter) and I love him to bits. 211.31.204.89 (talk) 08:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

BC Intelligence
I don't see any reason to muddy the waters on Border Collie intelligence with "one of the most" vs. "the most." This is clearly a useless injection of relativism and weasel words. The difference between Border Collies and other breeds isn't even close, be it selective "savant" representatives or the breed as a whole. You'd be hard pressed to find a ranking of smart dogs that doesn't have a border collie as the #1 spot. Dog IQ might be more subjective than speed (fastest breed) or size (smallest breed), but this outstanding breed should be given its due without waffling. 71.196.197.174 03:03, 5 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The term "the most" is too unambiguous, particularly as the only reference refers to the work of just one authority; Stanley Coren. It gives the impression that Coren is the absolute authority on dog intelligence and that his work has complete and total acceptance by his peers. The original edit is less unambiguous and the included reference to Coren's work allows readers to make their own decisions on the validity of Coren's methodology.Tophonic 06:57, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The need for you to use the phrases "less unambiguous" and "too unambiguous" are telling. The desire to CREATE ambiguity is troublesome and specifically against Wikipedia's policy of No Weasel Words. Your rant against Coren is also baseless as the statement does no such thing. Coren is a PhD, a research scientist, and a Professor and as far as dog intelligence is concerned, he is an authority. If you have any sort of research that contradicts his, please feel free to illuminate the situation.

Coren's methods don't speak to ALL of the broad set of characteristics that we use to determine intelligence, but that doesn't speak against the Border Collie being ranked as the premiere breed in this regard. Your waffling seems to be against Coren or a specific definition of intelligence rather than the Border Collie's place at the top of any one of those lists. Take that discussion to the wikipedia page on Coren's book, not here.

Specificity, not obfuscation, is the best way to deal with this issue. Detailing exactly how the border collie has been dubbed the smartest breed would be better writing and more informative than the muddy relativistic garbage of "They are regarded as one of the most intelligent dog breeds." Not only is that sentence poor writing (it's Passive, doesn't inform the source of statement (who regards? ... and it isn't just Coren), and waffles on the details (needless obfuscation and weasel words). In fact, the whole first paragraph should be rewritten. 71.196.197.174 01:58, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, the first paragraph should be rewritten. The Wikipedia article on avoiding weasel words states that it is acceptable to introduce some fact or opinion and attribute it in an inline citation. Using the Wikipedia example the rewritten first paragraph would include something like "Research by Stanley Coren et al, 2005, ranked the Border Collie as the most intelligent breed." Tophonic 03:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * More than just the first paragraph, this article is suffering from too many cooks and too much waffling over hot topics. The solution I think would work is to make more of those statments into simple facts instead of sweeping generalities. This article could use some references to data and numbers that would help clarify certain statements.


 * I very much like Tophonic's suggestion to use a simple citation instead of a broad-brush (and thus meaningless) classification. Intelligence is a hotly debated concept with humans, so the more specificity we give here would avoid falling into an endless argument with other breed enthusiasts and different classifications of intelligence. I hope we can all agree that Coren's study need just be referenced as such. No need to make it bigger or smaller than it is.

Depending on how much substantiated data can be referenced, a small section on "Intelligence" is probably worth having. A small description on what Intelligence meant to Coren and how the BC ranked 1, along with other data like the study done on the dog who knows hundreds of words and whom scientists used to support that dogs can reason and associate new words with new objects using deductive reasoning. He's listed in the Dogs of Note section. This would be another example of a cite-able reference and clearly defined element of intelligence, instead of using the umbrella phrase "smartest breed."

It's much easier to defend noteworthy examples of excellance vs. vague ego-driven wording that is plaguing this article. Hopefully Tophonic, 71.196.197.174, et al. can agree on this approach for intelligence and in that same spirit the turf war over working vs. conformation text can be wrangled into more facts, less hot air. 67.162.135.164 04:15, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The bit about "neruotic" is problematic as this is a specific medical term being used to describe a host of behaviors. 67.162.135.164 03:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Please back away from what you think the word means and check the attribution for the condition in dogs. Neurotic is how Border Collies and other, sometimes high strung, dogs are referred to. 12.214.206.229 17:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

By his own admission, Mr. Coren's book The Intelligence of Dogs does not consist of research in the traditional sense. Mr. Coren states that he initially intended to perform a broad study of the dog intelligence, and he does attempt to quantify valid interpretations of how such a subject could be measured. Ultimately, he deemed the pursuit to be too expensive and settled instead for a very limited poll of dog trainers. The responses of his poll could be considered anecdotal at best, and certainly subjective. Note that the breeds that appear toward the top of the list are also those that the dog trainers acknowledge as being exposed to the most. Dogs with owners who are predisposed to seeking professional training are most likely to appear in the "most intelligent" sections of his list. Additionally, the criteria provided to the trainers is extremely limited - as he acknowledges - and is not a universally recognized measure of intelligence. This article seems to suffer a lack of neutrality. Briantresp (talk) 17:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Plus, the list that he made only measured obedience intelligence anyway. (I have the book). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.89.13 (talk) 01:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Statements on the intelligence of BC's are references to widely held beliefs by experts in the field. The formal definition of what intelligence means is not at issue in this article. It is reasonable to cite academic literature for particular examples of intelligent BCs (Juliane Kaminski http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/304/5677/1682 ) and to simply state that the generally held opinion of training experts view BC's as "intelligent" regardless of whether or not they are the listed at the top of a heirarchy of intelligence in dog breeds. The article should simply state that it is widely believed among experts that BCs are intelligent and cite examples of surveys (in the form of Stanley Coren's books and articles) and other authors in literature on the subject. Therefore, the issue should be one of finding and referencing that literature and not arguing for or against on this discussion page. Jcolbyk (talk) 20:11, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Copying text to Web site
Hello, I am building a Border Collie site for my sister in law and I wanted to know if there would be any copyright infringement if I copied and pasted the information from the border collies page? I've created a web page telling about border collies and needed information to post in it and wanted to see if it is OK to use the information posted on this site and if so do I have to give credit back to this site or can I just cut and past the information? Thanks in advance --Greenroyd (talk) 01:38, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you should verify that how you want to use it is in agreement with the copyright. You probably wouldn't have any problems...

Vulture19 (talk) 02:58, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Some questionable information here

 * I'd like to see this objectively updated. Much of the non-quantitative information - outside of height, weight, colour, etc - is questionable.

"Conformation-bred dogs are seldom if ever seen on the sheepdog field trial." This after saying that they make terrible pets if not given a job seems incongruous.

"Breeding for 'beauty contests' has long been understood to water down this ability." Really? By whom? How long? For what reasons? How do beautiful herding dogs cope?

I think, perhaps, outlining the disagreement between conformation proponents and working proponents in a separate section and removing such comments from the body of the article would go a long way to objectifying the content. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.122.130.104 (talk • contribs).


 * I agree; I think I've edited some of this sort of stuff before, but it gets away from me. :-)  Elf | Talk 20:29, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Ditto. I seem to remember similar discussions.  Edit away.  The working dog/show dog thing has been touched on in other articles--maybe an article just on that?  This is particularly interesting since surrendipitously, one dog project editor now owns a working border collie who is beautiful, and another owns a beautiful border collie who works....Quill 22:01, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Heyyyy, waiiiiit a minute, my beautiful BC is also talented; she's going to be an agility champion someday and is working very hard at learning how to be one (not that I'm thinking that "who works" is somehow downplaying that role)! This is no couch potato glamour queen. :-)  (OK, I have no idea how she compares to show dogs, but i've been told she has "good teeth". (grins cheerfully). )  Elf | Talk 22:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

citation requested
I requested a citation for the statement that BC's avoid fights in the opening paragraph. As a sheep herder, there is the ancillary duty to protect the flock, which means a distrust of other dogs. My small empirical sample also indicates that BC's exhibit the full range of social behavior, but tend towards aloofness or hostility toward other (strange) dogs.

Vulture19 (talk) 03:38, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I have been actively competing (stockdog, agility, obedience) with 3 BCs since 2002, and the BCs I run into nearly always get along well with other dogs. They had better, as they have to attend trials with other dogs, do farm work with other dogs, etc. And I disagree about sheep herding dogs having a duty to protect the flock. This is the work of livestock guardians (Anatolians, etc.), not shepherds like the BC. On the contrary, many highly trained BCs will run sheep to death if they escape and work without supervision.

Use of eye/glare
Some of the picture captions mention the BC's use of its eyes in herding, but the main text doesn't. That's such a distinctive and interesting feature, I think it should receive a paragraph. I only know the dogs as pets, but my understanding is that most herding dogs use nips to direct the herd, whereas the BC use their eyes to "stare down" errant sheep. Can somebody more knowledgeable say more? Noloop (talk) 03:25, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Clancy the croc
"Clancy 'the Croc'. Grand-daughter of famous Australian TV Border Collie (Pal Ad). Begun her career with a short and largely unsuccessful stint as a showdog, before being forced to exit on grounds of a controversially 'square behind' "

Does this dog actually have any significance? From what I know a dog does not gain recognition by simply being a show dog or even a relative to a more famous dog!

Im a bit weary about removing it myself in case it does deserve placement here.but a google search revealed nothing so i have my doubts! Tekana (O.o) Talk 18:26, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Even if bona fide, this does not a famous dog make.  Quill 22:20, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Elf | Talk 22:31, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Note that I tried to find info on this dog on the web also. This dog doesn't appear to be famous or even notable. Elf | Talk 16:32, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Seems original post may have been true, found some evidence of this dog's fame http://mc2.vicnet.net.au/home/coll/dadbo/madin~5.html; possible repost?

(posted by Elf | Talk 22:42, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

They will try to bite at their owner's ankles and try to lead them.[7] which makes dog sports popular with Border Collie owners.[8] However, in an appropriate home, with a dedicated, active owner, a Border Collie can be an excellent companion.[9]

Please clean this up. How does dog sports make a border collie less likely to bite at their owner's ankles? This is just poor editing. From my expirience, border collies make great pets with normal exercise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.204.18.141 (talk) 08:31, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Recent edit
Trying to avoid a potential (minor) edit war, I thought a discussion may be in order. There appears to be some disagreement over the following sentence:


 * Although working Border Collie handlers sometimes have superstitions about the appearance of their dogs (handlers may avoid mostly white dogs due to the unfounded idea that sheep will not respect a white or almost all white dog) (Emphasis mine).

The most recent edit returned the word "unfounded", stating that, as the idea exists in the citation, it belongs in the article. Not to be too lawyeristic, I would say that there would need to be a separate proof that the the idea is unfounded. I suspect that the idea is unfounded, but unless a study existed showing it to be unfounded (and separately sourced), it almost needs an tag. Perhaps a compromise? How about changing it to:


 * Although working Border Collie handlers sometimes have superstitions about the appearance of their dogs (handlers may avoid mostly white dogs due to the belief that sheep will not respect a white or almost all white dog).

Any thoughts? (I know, I should change my name to "Mountain out of Molehill"...)

Vulture19 (talk) 19:21, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, we're dealing with dogs here not science, and the authorities on such points are often those associated with the associations such as the USBCC. Your change is fine, though, and as a matter of fact is probably syntactically stronger than what is there now, so sure go ahead. (olive (talk) 19:56, 30 December 2009 (UTC))


 * It's been about a month, no objections, making change. vulture19 03:12, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Picture question.
In the main text of the article is this:



So something is going on here. What are the objections to the photo or caption? I just reverted an edit that removed it, and based on the comment above, it seems this is an issue in dispute? vulture19 23:32, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * If I remember there were no objections to the photo but the caption had an added editorial comment added to it which was not encyclopedic.(olive (talk) 03:21, 28 January 2010 (UTC))

Removed request for images
Sorry if I've stepped on any toes, but I think there's PLENTY of images on this page now (perhaps too many?) so I removed the request for images. I added one specific to herding, and one illustrating the variation of look (a good-herding, gangly tri). Just a note on the appearance variation... I don't hold with the show line vs. herding line vs. agility line debate personally, but I also don't think all BCs need to be fluffy, 21 inches tall, deep chested, etc. CMacMillan 01:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That's fine; when I added the request, there were no action photos here. Maybe we could shuffle some of the basic photos showing coat color variants to a in the appearance section, as we've done for some other random dog articles here and there.


 * As for the debate--it exists. Whether any of us think it *should* exist is a different matter. Elf | Talk 03:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The gallery idea sounds good as long as we can avoid the "look at my cute dog" photo album thing.


 * And, yeah, the debate exists. It's really given my conformation/herding border collie some sleepless nights... oh, wait... our silly arguments don't even register ;) CMacMillan 04:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

BEST DOGS EVER' BORDIE COLLIES ARE THE BEST DOG YO COULD EVER HAVE. THE ARE SO GOOD WITH CHILDREN. THEY ARE SO ACTIVE. AT LEAST MINE IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!MY DOG IS BETTER THEN YOURS HA! HA! HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Border collies are cool.


 * Er... okay. Sure. Whatever you say, there, exclamation girl. CMacMillan 00:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with CMacMillan :), How do you know if your dog's better than mine... Oh and my dog's a black 3/4 labrador and a 1/4 border collie! Loves him loads i do <3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.239.111.94 (talk) 16:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

The Vitagraph Dog
How come the Vitagraph Dog (Jean) is not mentioned? She was the first canine movie star (beating out Strongheart who is quite often (mis-)stated as being the first canine movie star?

IMDB article on Jean

Dog Actors article on Jean

(draggar) —Preceding undated comment added 14:55, 10 March 2010 (UTC).

Surely you do not mean to say that BC's have three eyes? "Eye colour varies from deep brown to amber or blue, with occasionally one eye of each colour." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.106.104.227 (talk) 17:34, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Unless they're living near Chernobyl, I'd say that it would reasonably unlikely. The sentence in question has been tweaked accordingly. :-) Johnmc (talk) 08:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Sandwiching?
I personally don't mind sandwiching, and in some cases, I even believe that it even is good in some cases, but the manual of style advises against it. 72 .91. 214.104 (Contribs|talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:57, 8 July 2010 (UTC).

"Sable" BC Agility Picture
I would like to point out the photo of a Border Collie jumping through a tire is an Australian Red, not a sable, as the caption suggests. Also, just noticed, but the white-faced BC with the caption "Tri-color BC face" does not appear to be a tri-color BC to me. It may be, its difficult to tell with a white factored face such as that, but I think the caption should probably be something different. White factored BC face maybe? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.236.144.236 (talk) 23:34, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Junk Writing
Here's what I see near the top of the article: "Their intelligence has been observed as having an intuitive quality that goes well beyond basic instinct. Such sensitivity calls for an environment that regards their higher faculties; otherwise, they can become distressed. With this understanding, they are excellent companion animals."

An environment that regards their higher faculties? Huh? It's this kind of sub-literate, incoherent babble that makes me despair of Wikipedia ever being a substitute for the "real" encyclopedias that it's been destroying. I could fix the prose, but I won't, because I know that five minutes later some moron would just put it back the way it was. At least, that's been my experience. Bye. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.22.231.206 (talk) 16:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * What a drama queen. I've rephrased that sentence to make sense. 137.22.99.108 (talk) 06:28, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Removal of litter size
dogbreedinfo.com and similar sites (purebredpuppy, gopetsamerica, etc) aren't particularly reliable sources. I've seen a decent amount of info that is blatantly false. If any reputable print sources (or online sources, though I've been unable to find any) have this info, please let me know so I can grab a copy! ;) I don't doubt they're out there, I just wonder how much is based on conjecture, as opposed to data collected. &mdash; anndelion  ( talk ) 02:33, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I did find this information in the book "Legacy of the Dog" and have re-added the litter size. Perhaps that's where these sites get some of their data, who knows. Sorry for the hassle. ;) &mdash; anndelion  ( talk ) 08:48, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Question about editing protocol
Now, as a matter of Wiki etiquette, if one of us should take it upon themselves to do a massive edit, is it better to do it in small chunks or to have one large edit? --67.162.135.164 04:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I would like to expand the History section, specifically the first part that is actually the history and not the "Registries" and all that. I shall do so using the Beagle article as an exemplar, as suggested.


 * As a matter of protocol, please do sign your posts in this and all talk pages. Thank you. BeachDog (talk) 17:59, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think more smaller edits are preferred to fewer bigger ones. That’s just my intuition. Maybe you could plan out what you want to do and break it down into chunks Oligomous (talk) 19:59, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Source Available for Adding references
I've got a PDF file containing basic information of the Border Collie, that's just under two pages long, that's sponsored by the BCSA and the AKC. I would have started editing already, but the only questions that I have is that do I need to list the source of where the PDF file is from, or do I just need to provide the PDF file for a reference? Please contact me back as soon as you can, and thanks for readingLeftAire (talk) 21:24, 13 March 2012 (UTC)


 * If it's sponsored by a reputable organization, I would think that you could cite that like any other source; so if the file is linkable online, I would definitely add that into your reference. If you downloaded it, provide the URL from which you downloaded it. Does that help? Yaminator  talk 15:44, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

ISDS Sheepdog Trials
I've been trying to source the Breed Standards section, so I added some references for the ISDS section. However, after editing it, I noticed that the ISDS trials are mentioned in Livestock work and Livestock work > Dog sports. I think that the explanation of the trials should all be moved to Livestock work > Dog sports, possibly under Livestock work > Dog Sports > ISDS Sheepdog trials since they're quite notable. I'm just wondering how to describe the breed standards from the ISDS' point of view? If anyone has any suggestions or would like to lend me a hand, please go for it! :) Yaminator  talk 21:35, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

British English
I don't want to start a fight here and I am aware of WP:ENGVAR etc thank you. Another editor noticed that color and colour were inconsistent and that there was a majority of colour. Similarly, recognized was outnumbered by recognised, which is a pity for those of us who like Oxford spelling but never mind. I had a bit of a look through the article history but it's a bit of a saga and I am not sure how best to do it, and in the meantime I think that WP:TIES might apply here, looking at the article text, the other templates on this page, etc. So for now anyway I have boldly marked it as BrE. I do not want to start some stupid nationalistic war here and I am not claiming that the BC "is a British dog". I do seem to recall that I may have seen one or two of them "overseas" as well (goak here). All I really want is common sense and consistent spelling, but I don't really give a monkey's whether it's "color" or "colour" - going for BrE here is not some kind of political statement but just a reasonable guess at what might work. Does that sound reasonable? Best wishes to all DBaK (talk) 08:17, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

life span, life expectancy conflicting ideas.
"Life span

The natural life span of the Border Collie is between 10 and 17 years, with an average lifespan of 12 years.[20] The median longevities of breeds of similar size are usually 12 to 13 years.[21] It is not unusual for Border Collies to live up to 18+ years of age, well past the average life span.[22]"

The section above is extremely confusing. There are a lot of numbers in there. My largest concern is the line "it is not unusual for border collies to live to 18+ years of age." According to most sources the life expectancy is about 12. as such it would be EXTREMELY unusual for a border collie to live to 18. I wish they lived to 18 or better yet 100, but its so rare I have never seen it. I am sure it happens but is certainly IS unusual. The first sentence is fairly accurate and says it all, live span of 10-17 average of 12. Can we just use that first sentence? At the very least the last sentence should be removed.Mantion (talk) 05:29, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I've removed the final sentence - the source doesn't seem to be a WP:RS and it doesn't even claim "It is not unusual ...", just seems to be more like a blog about one dog. Hope this helps a bit.  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  10:44, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Questions of Neutrality?
I also would like to add that the article still seems a little too biased towards not having BCs as pets. GenerationalSavant (talk) 02:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I have a problem with the neutrality as well. I agree in some parts it does seem to be biased towards not having border collies, though in other areas it seems to be highly supportive of it. A paragraph starts with "Border Collies are perfect pets for people. They are also a wonderful choice for households." then ends with "Many Border Collies who end up in shelters or rescue groups are there because owners...were not prepared to meet their dog's needs.". One second it's 'the dogs may control the movements of family members' then it's 'the dogs are suitable for households with small children'. I'm no expert on dogs, but that seems at least a little conflicting, and the article as a whole, definitely seems to be conflicting. I'm willing to accept the point of view on this dog is generally conflicted, but I think the article should be written to represent that, if it should be the case, not just jump back and forth from 'perfectly acceptable family dog' to 'high-energy, unsuitable for families, dog'. --24.141.144.157 (talk) 06:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe a lot of the warnings regarding BC ownership are valid - it is not a matter of neutrality but an attempt to educate potential owners. It may not be as necessary as it was in the aftermath of the movie Babe, but an important caveat that is supported by at least the AKC. If the article here is an attempt to provide a valid reference, the wording should remain.

Vulture19 (talk) 02:55, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Disagree. The wording should not remain. You see you fail to see the point. The article contradicts itself and politics aside, articles should never ever do that. It needs to be fluid and precise. YOU may feel this is what the "community" needs to know but Wikipedia is not an appropriate medium for that kind of nonsense. It's appropriate for facts, not opinions. You're confusing those two. Now don't get me wrong, I actually have a border that I adopted from a shelter because a family did just as you described (in fact, they simply set her free leaving her to fend for herself). However, I understand what Wikipedia is about and this is not a place to campaign against this sort of thing. MagnoliaSouth (talk) 00:08, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Border Collies of Note
This seems to me tob e mainly trvia - do we need a listing of every border collie that appeared in a film or TV show - moreover a lot of this can't be verified. Surely if we want to keep this section it should be for real dogs of note - ie. important cultural icons, or amazing feats - not collies who can do tricks on TV. What do you guys think? Kunchan (talk) 08:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * From doing a couple of GA nominations now I can state, that if/when this article gets nominated, that section will be brought up in the review either to transfer it into prose, or remove it. Miyagawa   (talk)  19:40, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * How about creating a separate list that is only referenced in the article? I'm not a fan of the section as it stands, as it seems too many entries are completely unverifiable. Furthermore, an appearance in a movie doesn't really seem notable unless the dog was the focus of the movie. Creating a list as a separate article would make this article more encyclopedic, IMO. vulture19 03:50, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Good idea. And I agree that only dogs that are a focus in the movie be included.(olive (talk) 03:53, 16 December 2010 (UTC))


 * I'm getting really close to just doing this. The section in this article has an extremely high number of dogs who have their own pages. I can see the article being nominated for deletion immediately (prolly speedied), but I believe it wold survive and AfD discussion... We need an intro. How about:
 * "Border Collies are highly intelligent and easily trained dogs. Their high intelligence has caused them to be the focus of many studies into dog and animal intelligence, and the ease with which they can be trained has led to their being featured in many movies and television shows. The following is a list of some of these dogs"
 * Whaddya think? vulture19 03:17, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree and balked when I saw it. Besides, borders rank high in film and television because they're so easy to train. If we went through and listed them all, then the page would quickly get out of hand. It should only have the most notable mentions as an example. The article is supposed to be informational, not trivial (though I really do wish Wikimedia would come up with a almanac too) and so a couple of notable, perhaps the most notable of them all, would be appropriate as examples for the reader to identify with. MagnoliaSouth (talk) 00:14, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

DNA and verification?
Welcome to the world of DNA! DNA now can verify the roots of any breed and if any studies have been done on the border I think that should be included. Also, along the same subject (of roots).... While I do believe that Old Hemp is likely the progenitor of the breed, there are no citations on that whatsoever. I've heard the Old Hemp story for many many years and read about it in other places. However of late, you'd be sorely pressed to find that claim in writing (that I know of). My guess is that DNA testing has made that original claim questionable? I'm not really sure. Either way, there needs to be some verification about this. Does anyone have any access to this information? MagnoliaSouth (talk) 00:19, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Livestock Work
Removed wikispam (advertisements masquerading as articles) The unnecessary and disproportionate detail regarding working with geese refers to a commercial service offered by Border Control Bird Dogs Tophonic Friday, 2007-04-27 T 03:23 UTC

I have reverted two edits by Bordacollie in this article today. l think Bordacollie's edits regarding working with geese are wikispam (advertisements masquerading as articles) because the edits appear to be promoting a commercial service offered by Border Control Bird Dogs. I have contacted Bordacollie and asked them talk about their proposed edits on this articles discussion page. Tophonic Friday, 2007-04-27 T 22:45 UTC

Using Border Collies as Bird Control is more than just wikispam. I'd have to review the Bordacollie edtis to see how biased or what have you the content was, but this is a growing (and legit) form of work for these dogs. Given the greater visibility this work offers this breed to the public, a mention of it would not necessarily be advertising a commercial service. The fact that said user does the service is not enough reason to remove the information, that's like saying that people who herd with BCs or run Agility are not welcome to comment. 67.162.135.164 03:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Border Collies have been used for about 20 years in this fashion; starting with David Marcks' Geese Police in central New Jersey, information should definitely be added and can be done so without promoting any one company. 72.68.90.220 (talk) 03:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Revisiting this idea a year later, I think it is imperative that the use of BC's for bird control be expanded. As already stated, the growing popularity of this method means more and more people are being exposed to BC's through bird control, and the reasons why BC's are effective underlines the concept of taming the wild predator as a means of livestock control. If people are worried about wikispam, there are several good sources put out by government entities that illustrate the use and effectiveness. A quick search yields:

http://www.int-birdstrike.org/Warsaw_Papers/IBSC26%20WPAE1.pdf (Go to section 3.4) http://www.pressconnects.com/article/20090117/NEWS01/901170354&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/icwdm_wdmconfproc/15/ (used as reference in others)

I am not involved in the wikiproject for dogs, but am willing to take lead on this if no one else wants to, but I would like some input on whether this merits its own subsection.

Vulture19 (talk) 02:51, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

The second (as of the date of this post) paragraph of the livestock work section (regarding the economic feasibility of using the dogs for herding) provides a lot of information that I would call great if it was cited in any way. It sounds like many of the contributors have access to a great deal more information on this topic than I have, so if anyone can cite where these figures come from, or can cite different figures, please do so. MrEdTheTalkingHorseEditor (talk) 00:48, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

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Images
I've removed most of the images from this article; most of them were redundant to others. TheAwesome Hwyh  17:32, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Several photos show Australian Shepherds or mixes.
The vertical line of 3 photos ARE AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERDS - NOT BORDER COLLIES!! There are so many mixed blood lines many people label nearly full Australian Shepherds "border collies". A border collie is THIN, LONG MUCH FLATTER COAT WITH A LONG FACE AND NOSE. Cowboycorvette (talk) 18:42, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Contrast the photos of the Border Collie with the sheep and one labeled "A Border Collie registered with the AKC..." vs others. NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE SAME BREEDING with others mentioned being either purely Australian Shepherds or over 50% mix breeds. Cowboycorvette (talk) 18:47, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yelling doesn't really help. Kinda like with dogs. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106; &#x1D110;&#x1d107; 02:33, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I understand the frustration though, as it seems to be more and more frequent to mistake the two breeds-Amber.amc259 (talk) 23:45, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

POV material about BCs as working dogs
Border collies *can* do well in the breed ring and also still have the energy and drive and intelligence of a working dog; I see them occasionally. It is *not* true that BCs make awful pets, also *not* true that the only reason to own or breed BCs is for working stock. I have adjusted the text to better reflect what I know about BCs (being around a lot of them all the time for many years). I have many friends with BCs who excel at dog agility, many of them coming from "working lines" (which is also coming to mean BCs who aren't just pets or beauty queens but don't necessarily ever work stock), and all of them are pets and companions as well. Elf | Talk 23:16, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Nice work on neutralising there Elf. I agree with all you say here. -- sannse (talk) 18:56, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Of course, of course--and I'm deleting that reqimage msg. Doesn't make sense here, many wikipedia articles have far fewer, or none....Quill 22:48, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Replacing; follow link to see what I've requested in all cases. :-) Elf | Talk 23:04, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Capitalization
Breed names are typically only capitalized by aficionados who believe capitalization conveys some sort of status, such as breeders, but not by anyone else (https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/capitalizing-dog-breeds). The prose of this article generally follows this, but the page must be moved to do the same. ~TPW 19:28, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Coat varieties
someone just added that there are 3 coat varieties of BCs. I'm not familiar with such. The only short-haired variety I'm familiar with is the McNab. Elf | Talk 06:12, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * The UKC recognizes "varied lengths" for coats. AKC recognizes two, rough (med. coat) and smooth (short coat; may havae slight feathering), both with dense waterproof undercoats.  ANKC says double coated with moderately long topcoat. All say BCs must be double-coated with short, sense waterproof undercoat.  In practice, I've only seen med to long coats.  Quill 11:26, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have got 2 border collies, they are short haired and long haired. There simply is no 'rough coat' as a special variety...though sometimes it comes under long haired. 212.129.77.93 (talk) 19:50, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Bogus Appearance Text Removed
I took this out "They have the appearance of a Golden Retriever and Shepherd Dog mix." I can't see how it helps the article - I tried to imagine the dog described and could not (what's a shepherd dog?) and on the other hand there is a photo just inches away, which renders the description redundant, unlike in the other article which had no photo. I hope this does not cause offence to the author of that sentence. Nevilley 07:29 16 May 2003 (UTC)

I agree, sorry to thr author. 212.129.77.93 (talk) 19:51, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

smart
border collies are so smart

I know, they are the most intelligent breed. 212.129.77.93 (talk) 19:53, 5 September 2021 (UTC)