Talk:Borisoglebsk-2

Start
I have started this article. The first I ever heared of Borisoglebsk 2 was at Swedish SVT tele-text. And I wright this simply since I'm a bit afraid to get out of the NPOV boundries. It's been rather easy to find Russian comments, but neutral and reliable sources - or NATO responses to both this weapon system and to the one which according Russian statement/propaganda (?) scared away an American destroyer from northern Black Sea. So if possible, help to improve the article. Especially if it feels pro-Russian in some respect. This has not been my intention. (And if it had been about an American weapon system, I would have felt the same.) Although civil jet airliners are interesting to me (especially older ones), have I never liked military issues. Especially during and after my Swedish military "duty" back in the 1980's. I was surprised we lacked an article about this system, thats the only reason I began this article, which actually is out of my scope of interests. There is also a part about future dangers, that part is unsourcered, and ought perhaps to be erased. But I leave it up to others. Boeing720 (talk) 14:53, 19 August 2015 (UTC)


 * You also need to focus solely on the system this article discusses, not generic Western fears about unnamed / non-specific EW systems. --Dual Freq (talk) 13:06, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Khibiny
That destroyer story regarding Khibiny (electronic countermeasures system) is laughable propaganda that western newspapers didn't even bother to print. 27 sailors supposedly resigned afterwards? Give me a break, how come none of them didn't find the nearest newspaper reporter. Did they all just fly home from Romania? Medium.com's "War is Boring" goes so far as to call it "a bullshit story" and the crew of USS Donald Cook was so shaken up they went to Romania and immediately gave the President of Romania a tour of their ship 2 days after the supposed incident. The rest of the western media didn't even bother to mention the jamming claims in their coverage of the incident. It's an easy lie to make since Russia doesn't have to provide any evidence at all and the US naturally can't prove it wasn't jammed. --Dual Freq (talk) 02:02, 20 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Additionally, Khibiny is aircraft mounted and Borisoglebsk is a ground vehicle mounted system, they do not appear to be related, different companies, different functions, one is supposed to jam radar, the other communications and GPS. These are different frequencies bands requiring different antennas, amplifiers, radios, etc. There is no magic antenna that works optimally at all frequencies. --Dual Freq (talk) 02:11, 20 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Regardless of the validity of the subject matter and some of the more extraordinary claims, I've gone over the article and done a bit of general improvement. I do think it is necessary however to represent propaganda/questionable claims as such. For example, After the introduction of the Borisoglebsk 2 system within the Russian armed forces, the Russian forces have possibly attained superiority within the field of electronic warfare. Any thoughts? Green547 (talk) 02:40, 20 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Dual Freq - I'm not surprised if Russia exaggerates, but this webbsite You refer to is just belonging to private person who makes his own counter-propaganda, or whatever. Such private webbpages demands the person in question is acknowledged and reckognised by other authors and scientists. I experienced a big collapse about car ferries wich has sailed across Øresund between Denmark and Sweden. 1,2,3 and whips everything was a waste of time.
 * It was simply a homepage of an entusiastic, but unknown person. But naturally is the Pentagon statement worth equally much as the Russian webbsite - if You can find the statement at a reliable webbpage or newspaper including date, page etc. If so, just put it in - or if You prefer I will do it. I hope You are familiar with source relability.
 * Green547 - I'm very greatful for Your help. And I'm searching for NATO / Pentagon comments as well. Typically I found what the American commander in Europe has stated in American Defense News. It doesn't quite help those who just want to read about American supremacy, I suppose Boeing720 (talk) 03:14, 20 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Please don't complain to me about reliability of sources when you are citing propaganda. As I said, western news media completely ignored these absurd claims. See also, WP:Redflag, exceptional claims require exceptional sources. That applies to the claims re:Khibiny. What I was trying to say is 1) The claims about Khibiny are absurd propaganda with no proof at all of any of the claims and only state run media making the claims and 2) Khibiny has nothing to do with the subject of this article. You're trying to roll up a bunch of random electronic warfare systems into an article that is not about all systems. You need to focus on the Borisoglebsk system and find reliable sources that don't make absurd claims. Making a claim like "Russian forces have possibly attained superiority within the field of electronic warfare" needs a reliable source. Also, I've had discussions with editors on wikipedia who claim Russia is not even involved in Ukraine, but this article says Russia is jamming mobile phone networks in Ukraine. You need a reliable source that says that GPS and mobile phones are actually being disrupted and that this system / Russia is the cause. --Dual Freq (talk) 21:39, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Problems
The problem with this systems is that INS will still work inside the blocked zone and any weapon system will use GPS until it denied and carry on with INS, plus there is TERCOM.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 22:39, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh and it is mobile not fixed. http://www.deagel.com/Aircraft-Protection-Systems/Borisoglebsk-2_a003063001.aspx --Kitchen Knife (talk) 22:45, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

OSCE drone jamming
The only mention I can find regarding GPS jamming of an OSCE drone was in November 2014.USA today for example In relationship to this article that presents two issues. One is that this article states that Borisoglebsk 2 was not deployed until 2015. The second is that Russia officially denies being involved in Ukraine. In order to include OSCE drone jamming claims for Borisoglebsk 2, this article needs a source that says Borisoglebsk 2 jammed an OSCE drone / GPS. This is not a clearing house article for theoretical jamming of whatever, by unspecifed, unidentified sources. --Dual Freq (talk) 17:34, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Whatever Russia states about involvement in Ukraine, it's a different topic. I've just read 500 tanks have passed the border. However it seems like Russia are ahead of America in EW-warfare, as of this day. Borisoglebsk 2 is the supposedly best of Russian EW-weapons. It isn't stange as Russia has many more advanced programmers. Just like they have many more advanced chess players. Boeing720 (talk) 17:02, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

You're still missing the point. Electronic warfare is a huge category of weapons and tactics and counter tactics, there is no "best EW system" that does everything and is unbeatable. That's why I'm encouraging you to be specific, and cite specific sources and specifics incidents, rather than vague generalized statements about generalized systems. Especially regarding the drone jamming and radar jamming claims that appear to have not even been related to Borisoglebsk 2. Jamming GPS means nothing if the opponent uses inertial navigation or laser guided bombs. This system may be the best jammer of GPS, but that is not going to stop a TV guided maverick missile, a home-on-jam HARM, unguided cluster bombs or even a laser guided bomb. Every time they transmit, they reveal their location, so good luck to them with that. --Dual Freq (talk) 21:32, 24 August 2015 (UTC)