Talk:Bornholm dialect

Førder
Sorry to all you who don't read Danish - I can't make myself clear in English on this subject :-(

Der er indsat en hankøns- og hunkønsform førd/førder i forklaringen om folk ovrefra. Jeg synes den samlede sætning bliver lidt kluntet, især for en udlænding, der i forvejen ikke fatter en brik af hvad det handler om, og jeg er også i tvivl om hvorvidt oplysningen i det hele taget er nødvendig i dette afsnit. Måske skulle der skrives et selvstændigt afsnit på et par linier om førdere, folk ovrefra og hvor mange generations indvandrer man skal være for at være "ægte" bornholmer. Iøvrigt har jeg ikke før hørt at der var han-/hunkøn på det? Jeg troede det var førder uanset hvad? G®iffen 14:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

-- The English version is far better on bornholmsk than the Danish one. "Førdere" doesn't exist at all.

Rettelse af flere fejl hos Griffen!

Det er ganske rigtigt og specielt for bornholmsk, at der er en hankøns- og en hunkønsform for dem "ovrefra", de førte. Hhv han er en førder, hun er førd. I flertal hedder det førte eller førda. Andre former som "førdere" er forkerte (ikke eksisterende på bornholmsk) - se ovenfor - selv om de bruges tit. Af førte.

Leif Henriksen har skrevet om dette og andre farlige bornholmske ord. Se link bevar bornholmsk via www.kulturbornholm.dk

Det er forbløffende, at den engelske version er fremragende og langt bedre end den danske, og at en englænder har langt større indsigt end en dansker.

Det kan ikke angives, hvor længe en (man bruges ikke på bornholmsk) skal bo på Bornholm, før en bliver accepteret. Engagement og indlevelse kan forkorte karantænetiden betydeligt. I visse tilfælde til en menneskealder.

Med venlig hilsen CS, selv ført = ovrefra

Scanian
I heard that this dialect is allegedly much closer to Scanian than standard Danish is. Does somebody have more info about it? 惑乱 分からん 14:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The musical tone is much more "singing" than standard Danish. Which is no doubt the reason why some people insultingly refer to people from Bornholm as "reserve-svenskere".


 * Store Danske Encyklopædi is not of much use but it has a little information.


 * "Danske dialekter": I dansk dialektforskning skelnes der traditionelt mellem tre hoveddialekter: østdansk, ømål og jysk. Østdansk er en fællesbetegnelse for bornholmsk og dialekterne i de gamle danske områder i Sydsverige; ømål dækker sjællandsk, fynsk og sydømålene. So in short, Danish originally had three main accents (all with many variations) but jysk and ømål pretty much lost their third colleague after the loss of the Scanian Lands. Danes sometimes hear the claim that East Danish / Scanian wasn't Danish at all, but this is nonsense. Some people in Copenhagen considered Scanian a corrupted accent, but the same people no doubt felt the same way about West or South Jutlandic, or Funish for that matter. So Drømte mig en drøm i nat remains the oldest-known Danish song. :) To quote a little more from Store Danske Encyklopædi:


 * "Dansk sprog": Ud over det nuværende Danmark omfattede det gammeldanske sprogområde Skåne, Halland og Blekinge samt Slesvig til Ejderen. Adskillige gammeldanske tekster bar tydeligt dialektpræg med fx skånske former som baghare 'bager', stonda 'stå' eller jyske som fræ 'fra', begynnels 'begyndelse'; men de skrivende søgte i stigende grad mod en fællesdansk norm, der stemte mest med sproget i rigets centrale landskab, Sjælland. I landskabslove, i retsstiftende dokumenter, oplysende og opbyggelige skrifter, fortælling i form af legender og historieskrivning m.m. blev det danske sprog opdyrket. Et af redskaberne var et udvidet ordforråd.
 * (same article): Det gammeldanske sprogområde blev mindsket stærkt ved tabet af Skåne, Halland og Blekinge 1658 og ved det tyske sprogs gradvise fremtrængen til den nuværende grænse. Under unionen med Norge 1380-1814 var det gammelnorske skriftsprog ved år 1500 gået af brug og udskiftet med dansk; først fra 1907 begyndte en officiel fornorskning af "det almindelige bogsprog", nu bokmål. Mange danske ord er gået ind i grønlandsk og færøsk, mens islandsk har optaget væsentligt færre. Med hensyn til bøjning, sætningsbygning og ordforråd har dansk i alt væsentligt udviklet sig parallelt med nabosprogene norsk og svensk.
 * (same article): Det gammeldanske sprogområde blev mindsket stærkt ved tabet af Skåne, Halland og Blekinge 1658 og ved det tyske sprogs gradvise fremtrængen til den nuværende grænse. Under unionen med Norge 1380-1814 var det gammelnorske skriftsprog ved år 1500 gået af brug og udskiftet med dansk; først fra 1907 begyndte en officiel fornorskning af "det almindelige bogsprog", nu bokmål. Mange danske ord er gået ind i grønlandsk og færøsk, mens islandsk har optaget væsentligt færre. Med hensyn til bøjning, sætningsbygning og ordforråd har dansk i alt væsentligt udviklet sig parallelt med nabosprogene norsk og svensk.


 * The Danish article has a bit more information, see da:Bornholmsk. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 00:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

"Scanian dialect"
Now (april -14) The article called "Bornholmsk dialect" starts like this: "Bornholmsk is a Scanian dialect spoken on the Baltic Sea island of Bornholm". But, Scanian is a dialect spoken in Sweden, and Bornholm is in Denmark. More than 350 years ago both Scania and Bornholm were ruled by Denmark. The spoken language in both areas were more similar to each other in those days. Danish and Swedish are very similar languages. So, the political bounderies have created the present forms. IF Scania had still been Danish, people there had of course spoken a kind of Danish. In the same way a kind of Swedish had been spoken in Bornholm today IF that island should have been a part of Sweden for a long time now. On the other hand, IF Scandinavia had been a single country Danish, Norwegian and Swedish would have been regarded as dialects of a common Scandinavian language. BUT the present fact is that Bornholm is in Denmark and Scania is in Sweden. The standard languages of the respective countries have set their very heavy marks on the dialects. There are still similarities between Bornholmsk and Scanian (as there is i.e. between Norwegian and Swedish spoken along the border of those countries). But to say that Bornholmsk is a "Scanian dialect" is quite odd. There are perhaps some sources for such an opinion, but many more sources say that today Bornholmsk has developped into a DANISH dialect, and Scanian has developped into a SWEDISH dialect. --Vedum (talk) 21:05, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Political borders and linguistic phylogenies are two different things. Bornholmsk is a Scanian dialect because it descends from the Scanian dialects of East Denmark. Politically it is a Danish dialect, and in the last century of its history it has been heavily influenced by Standard Danish - but in terms of historical linguistics that doesn't mean that it is no-longer a Scanian dialect.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:51, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
 * This could be explained later in the article under "History". But the very first sentence should not say it is "Scanian dialect", not even mentioning today's reality. It is just confusing for most readers. Visitors to the island find people speaking Danish, than travelling to Ystad finding people speaking Swedish. --Vedum (talk) 07:59, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The lead is better now. --Vedum (talk) 08:02, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * "Scanian" is apparently one of the most flexible terms in Scandinavian linguistics. It's spoken specifically in Scania and outside of Scania. It includes subsets of dialects of modern Danish and Swedish but at the same time it's not a form of Standard Swedish or Standard Danish (which specifically exclude the traditional dialects).
 * The only thing that seems consistent here is that information from Ethnologue and Glottolog is always presented as though it was the consensus view of the linguistic community.
 * Peter Isotalo 12:53, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Problems with Glottolog
The only reference that considers Bornholmsk a "Scanian dialect" seems to be Glottolog itsel. There's a reference to Stiles (2013), but there's nothing about Scanian in it (Stiles' article isn't even about North Germanic languages). If this is another case of a language database arbitrarily classifying South Swedish/East Danish dialects as forms of "Greater" Scanian, the information should be considered unreliable and removed.

The dialects spoken in Scania and Bornholm are clearly closely related, but it's unclear how that makes one a subset of the other.

Peter Isotalo 16:52, 21 September 2015 (UTC)