Talk:Borscht/Archive 1

Mennonite Summer Borscht
Someone had added information saying that it is made with Sorrel and a Boiled egg. I have never heard of any Mennonite soups made with an Egg, but I have seen some other Borscht recipes with Sorrel (but not Summer Borscht). My family Mennonite, and my Mother and Grandmother have alot of mennonite recipes (community-compiled cookbooks), and I'm very familiar with alot of the soup recipes. i even did a Google search, and came up with absolutely nothing about any kind of "Summer Borscht" containing Sorrel or an Egg. every Recipe ive seen for it is Pork-broth, Potatoes, Sausage, Beet-leaves (or Chard), Dill, and Green onions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Impreziv (talk • contribs) 04:21, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Characteristics of Borscht in Ukraine
I visited Ukraine twice for three weeks each time. I was served borscht there about 12 times, and only twice did it have beets. The key ingredients in Ukraine seem to be either potatoes or carrots. It seemed to me that the beets were the optiional ingredient.


 * There are probably more recipies than regions which consider the soup their national dish. There are probably even as many recipies as cooks, as we say here in Poland. In where I live the very word barszcz is used to denote three completely different soups: bia&#322;y barszcz (white borsht) is a sour soup made of grain and soured flour. Czerwony barszcz (red borsht) is the one with beetroots (although I know at least four different versions, some of them are not even red...). There is also a soup commonly called barszcz ukrai&#324;ski (Ukrainian borsht) made with carrots and other vegetables, to which the beets are added only as an option. It is to be noted that, paradoxially, this soup is almost unknown in Ukraine proper... Halibutt 23:42, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't recall the term 'biały barszcz', but it sounds like what we called 'żurek' (I'm originally from Poznań). The key ingredient is rye flour which is mixed with water and allowed to ferment; it gives the soup a flavor sort of like sourdough rye bread. It also contains potatoes, onions, caraway seed, and optionally bacon and/or smoked sausage. --24.58.13.127 06:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * biały barszcz is a sour soup that is made on a base of a souring agent, such as soured cream, buttermilk, soured gherkins or from wheys that are a by-product of making curd-cheese. This makes it distinct from żur which is made from soured rye flour. Gregmal (talk) 17:31, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I find it interesting that you had this experience. Within the Ukrainian community in Canada, I have never heard borshch refering to anything other than beet soup.  I am mostly familiar with the Ukrainian community in the prairies of Canada, but that is where most of the Ukrainians are located.  The majority of the Ukrainian community in Canada is about 3rd or 4th generation and sometimes words change over time.  So, I just looked in a modern English-Ukrainian dictionary.  I was only able to find the word borsch as beet-root soup under the beet-root entry.  Unfortunatly, I do not have a Ukrainian-English dictionary, so I just looked up words listed under soup, beet, vegetable, carrot, & potato.  Is it possible that you were always being served this non-beet borshch by people of non-Ukrainian heritage (e.g. Mennonite or from what Halibutt is saying, possibly Polish)?  -- JamesTeterenko 05:43, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Borscht ALWAYS, by definition, has beets in it, at least to make, though they can be taken out when served.


 * Borsch - is a "red" soup with meat. If there's no beet then it's not borsch. And it's traditional not only for Ukraine, but also for Russia. I cook it once a week and eat well every day))

213.85.69.121 (talk) 14:28, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My wife is Ukrainian and her mother's side of the family is Ukrainian as far back as reckoning goes. Borsch is made with beets, that's what makes it red.  The solid parts are sometimes removed after cooking at very fancy eating places according to local styles to leave a very thin red broth, but the red color is from beets and most Ukrainians don't remove the solid beet parts (which are translucent after cooking).  --Taivo (talk) 15:08, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Recipe
The following is a recipe for Ukranian borscht I obtained form a good friend of mine. We were teaching in Lithuania at the time. Often for lunch we would have Lithuanian borscht, which DOES NOT contain beets. I happened one day to mention during lunch that I would like a recipe for the Lithuanian version. I was asked if I would settle for a Ukranian version. Here it is.


 * I have had Lithuanian borsch many times and from various sources.  Grated beets have always been the main ingredient.  H Padleckas 04:36, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

How to Make Ukrainian Cabbage Borscht (A thick soup) (Courtesy Lawrence Fast, St. Johns International School, Vancouver) Ingredients required: One liter or more chicken broth One head of cabbage One or two potatoes Four or five or six carrots Four or five sticks of celery Two medium size onions Two or three or four or five cloves of garlic One large can of diced tomatoes Two or three or four sprigs of fresh dill (chopped up) Pickling spices (plus whatever spices are to your taste (I use sage, thyme oregano, bay leaves, rosemary, etc.)) Salt and pepper to taste Worcester sauce to taste Olive oil

The cooking process: Prepare the potatoes, carrots by peeling, then slicing into bite-size pieces. Wash and slice the celery into bite-sized pieces. The onions and garlic must be peeled and chopped. The cabbage should be sliced. In a large cooking pot heat enough olive oil to fry the chopped onions and garlic over medium heat. Three or four tablespoons of oil should be enough. If not, add more oil. Let the onions and garlic simmer over medium or low heat for 8 to 10 minutes. Now add one liter of chicken broth and bring to a boil. Now add the sliced potatoes, carrots and celery; bring to a boil and simmer over medium heat until vegetables are almost tender enough to eat. While the vegetables are boiling fill a spice container* and add any other spices your heart may desire. Put the spice container in the boiling soup and leave it there until the soup is finished. While the soup is simmering add salt and pepper to taste, a dash of Worcester sauce or seasoned salt or celery salt until the soup is really tasty. If the soup becomes too thick add some more chicken broth but it should be a hearty soup with plenty of vegetables. When the vegetables seem tender, add the can of tomatoes and the shredded cabbage. Again let the soup simmer over medium heat continue tasting to see whether your imagination has worked magic. Lastly, add the chopped fresh dill. When it’s done, EAT!

--- (I top it off just prior to serving with a large tablespoon of sour cream. Mmmmmmm!)
 * Like a metal tea ball with pickling spices. You can buy these ready mixed at Safeway or IGA.

Gene McManus

GenotheGreat2003@yahoo.com


 * Moved to Wikibooks Cookbook :) [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 11:23, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

Name
I wonder where did the current name of this article came from. Borscht does not seem like an approximation of any of the original names and the transcryption seems German to me. Is this soup really called "Borscht" in English? And if so - does anyone know where did it come from? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 21:25, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)


 * The correct German transcription would be "Borschtsch". My best guess the word went West via Yiddish. Mikkalai 21:41, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * This soup is indeed called "Borscht" in English; I've seen it many times for sale in jars in the United States. I think Americans think of this as the typical Russian home-style food.  --Pekinensis 18:53, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * How is that an argument? I've seen hummus and shawrma spelled different ways in US restaurants/supermarkets. Even donuts :-) 75.147.19.86 (talk) 15:08, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * From a historical point, the Latin alphabet originates from the Greek. But Russian writing is no exception. Thus, Cyrillic and Latin have the same roots. I was always (in a childhood) surprised by the fact that we (in the East) almost everyone with no problems reading in many languages. While the West has some isolation. Personally, I read without any problems as the Korean, just for fun memorized Hangul. I do not understand Korean or Greek. But in order to properly hold a random book, including a newspaper in Hebrew, I consider it my duty to have a basic understanding of writing, all the peoples with whom I come across (even movies). Do not get me wrong, but I think the Europeans just lazy for new Horizons.Alikberov (talk) 16:07, 13 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I think it was called borstj or borsjt in old Mad Comics I have read, but the spelling could have been chosen because of exotism. 81.232.72.53 12:40, 15 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The English name is probably from Yiddish pronounciation; see Borscht Belt.--Pharos 18:46, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Another possibility, and I'm guessing purely on the grounds of pronunciation, is that it is a German transcription of the name in Bulgarian, борщ (borsht). Is this a feasible explanation? --Iceager 22:10, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

The real transcription should be "Borshch" because that is the spelling in russian. --195.85.172.178 22:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC)Verdulo
 * Sorry dude, it's the English WP. I agree borshch is the corect way to say it in Russian (or Ukrainian), BUT, that's not what you see in the Supermarket (in North America).  It's always "borscht". Kevlar67 07:48, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * But outside of North America, English-speakers usually refer to it as Borshch, or simply Borsh. InfernoXV 13:18, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * So what? They're spelling it wrong because that's just how they were taught. Old atlases spell Romania as Rumania well into mid 20th century, because no one bothered to look into it, etc. 75.147.19.86 (talk) 15:11, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Russian letter 'Щ' (борЩ) is been transliterating correctly as SHCH. For example, my surname, Batishchev (батиЩев) --Abatishchev (talk) 20:03, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * In England it is usually pronounced and spelled borscht, though I agree the correct transliteration from the Russian would be borshch. Maybe English speakers just have trouble pronouncing 'shch', though it doesn't stop us saying 'pushchair'!86.176.0.103 (talk) 14:00, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * There's important linguistic differences that allow English speakers to have no problem pronouncing 'pushchair' but have problems pronouncing 'borshch'. The 'shch' in 'pushchair' is split across syllables, whereas in Russian it's all in one syllable. Not to mention that the 'shch' is in a coda position in the Russian, which could pose an additional obstacle for English speakers. The difficulty for speakers of one language pronouncing words in another comes partially from the sounds that need to be produced in sequence, and partially from where these sounds occur in the word/syllable. For example, many languages allow certain sound combinations to end words but not start them. English has words that end in 'ct' (IPA: /kt/), such as 'sect', 'duct', 'pact'. But words can't begin with 'ct' in English, even though both 'c' (really, 'k') and 't' are common sounds in English that people have no trouble pronouncing together. In contrast, Polish, and I would guess Russian, allow words to begin with /kt/, such as Polish 'kto', 'który'. So just because the sounds occur in the language, and just because they even appear in sequence, doesn't mean you've painted the whole picture of what is "easy" for speakers of the language to say. See English phonology for more info. -Krasnoludek (talk) 00:09, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You're missing the part where the combination "shch" does not even occur in Russian (got it all mixed up with Ukrainian/Polish), and the typical transcription is historical/etymological. "Щ"/"Shch" has been "śś" in Russian for a while now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.236.253 (talk) 10:02, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you mean that sh+ch separately (as two syllables) doesn't occur in Russia? That's correct. Only "soscht" (i.e. сосчитать) comes off the top of my head. And elaborate your statement regarding "śś" please --Abatishchev (talk) 17:31, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Cabbage, potatoes and smetana.
I grew up in Moscow during the 80s and I can't seem to recollect that there was ever a question of the cabbage being optional in Russia, and I don't really recall eating a borscht prepared with potatoes. I might've had a limited culinary experience in this instance, so do correct me if I'm wrong.

I added a comment about smetana as well. I know it's not identical to creme fraiche, but it's the closest reasonable equivalent available outside Eastern Europe. Especially in mildly Russophobic Sweden... Peter Isotalo 13:10, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

Borscht in Hong Kong
When I visited Hong Kong a few years ago, it seemed like Borscht was extremely popular there for some reason. Is this accurate, and is there any particular explanation for it other than just the Hong Kongers liking the taste? --Robert Merkel 1 July 2005 04:41 (UTC)
 * Wow. I was certainly not expecting this. Do they actually call anything similar to borsht or is just a Cantonese dish extremely similar to borscht? Is it claimed as being Russian or Eastern European? Do they use the same ingredients? More details would be interesting to learn of.
 * Peter Isotalo 15:43, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It's called law soong tong in the local language, in which law soong is a translation of "Russia" or "Russian" (and tong means soup). It's tomato-based, as described in the article. It's imported, yet an localised variant. &mdash; Instantnood 20:31, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It was brought there by White Russians early twentieth century, as I recall. I can't recall the source offhand, but its origins shouldn't be too hard to find. --Yuje 10:26, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Transliteration and smetana
I happen to be Russian, and my parents make борщ (/borç/) all the time. I personally like to transliterate it as borsh', because that last group of letters represents only one letter and one sound. It's not a good idea though because the apostrophe is generally reserved for the soft sign, and that would be an incorrect spelling. The best spelling would probably be borshch since the letter 'щ' is understood by Russians by it's historic origin, which is Ш+Ч. There's actually a Russian joke about a German princess misspelling a two-letter word by 7 letters ('щи' compared to 'schtschi').

Anyway, the beets are the main ingredient, and the process of boiling the beets along with a bone (which takes a looong time) is what gives the soup that red colour (and delicious taste). The borshch my parents make always has potatoes, cabbage, carrots, and meat in it, but I don't really remember the other ingredients. It's ALWAYS served with sour cream. I think foreigners are the only people that refuse that option. And why the hell does this page have 'smetana' seperate from sour cream? Sour cream is the literal definition of smetana.--67.177.36.200 04:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)


 * It has its own article for the same reason that crème fraîche, kefir and filmjölk are separate. They have separate names and while being similar to other dairy products with English equivalents, they are not identical, especially not in terms of taste.


 * The Latin transliteration is indeed confusing and often misleading for anyone who doesn't know Russian, but unfortunately these are the most common. To make up for it, at least we have a sound file for the Russian pronunciation by a native speaker (me) and as soon as I can determine exactly which IPA symbol to use for the Russian 'щ' (it's not [ç], which is a voiceless palatal fricative). I don't know if you meant something else by your description of preparation, but the red color doesn't take a long time at all to achieve. Whenever I make borscht, it's with just onions, beets, some garlic, bullion cubes, black pepper corns, bay leaves and optionally carrots. It takes 30 minutes at most to get a decent soup, even if boiling it a lot longer (with meat and all) does indeed add a lot more taste. The borscht I had back in the USSR (I left for Sweden before it ever became Russia) was indeed always with meat, though I can't recall if it had potatoes or not.
 * Peter Isotalo 15:43, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I think the Russian pronunciation might be something like /borʃʲʃʲ/. In Ukrainian it's /borʃʧ/.  —Michael Z. 2005-08-14 20:07 Z 


 * That's seems right to me too, but I would really like to find a Russian phonology that uses proper IPA to confirm it. So far I've only found books that only use a very unsatisfying modified Latin script.
 * Peter Isotalo 20:18, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I have reason to believe that the palatalised postalveolar fricative is exactly the same as the alveolo-palatal fricative (See the discussion in the IPA article). I didn't mean to use the symbol for the palatal fricative, sorry about that. My mistake. The reason I was objecting to the 'smetana' thing is because that's the literal translation of sour cream. My family lives in America now, and even though our sour cream isn't Russian, we still call it smetana. I understand that it has a different taste, but that's no reason to pretend that's it's something completely different. Why not just call it "Russian-style sour cream", or even "Eastern-European" sour cream? But who cares, I guess I'll just drop it. In preparation, I wasn't refering to the colour only, but mostly the taste. The bone being boiled for a long time is the basis for the broth. And the potatoes aren't noticeable because they turn red from absorbing the soup, and they gain a unique taste. The pronunciation can vary because the Russian 'Щ' can be pronounced '&#597;', '&#597;&#720;', or '&#597;&#680;".--67.177.36.200 11:46, 15 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Hm. I just noticed smetana isn't actually a separate article, but I'm not going to create one myself. In any case, it's valid enough to point out the difference in an article about borscht. I wouldn't see the specific mention of smetana as something negative, but rather something that explains a fairly unique fact of Slavic cuisine. The fact that you call sour cream "smetana" is most likely due to the very same reason that a lot of English-speaking people call smetana "sour cream"; people use the terms they are most familiar with because it's practical. Have you ever had creme fraiche, btw? My memory might be failing me, but to me it seems closer to smetana than sour cream, though this could be a matter of Swedish sour cream being a lot different from the sour cream found in other countries.
 * Being a native speaker of both Russian (though it's very rusty now) and Swedish, I must concur about 'Щ' possibly being a . is a separate phoneme in Swedish and is realized as that very sound in nearly all dialects, so I'm very familiar with the sound. It does seem very extremely similar (if not identical) to the fricative in borsht. Unfortunately, I've yet to see any source that either confirms or refutes this claim.
 * Peter Isotalo 15:05, 16 August 2005 (UTC)


 * If you go to the 'Polish lanuguage' article, there are some sound samples from a native Polish speaker. According to that article, 's&#769;' and 'z&#769;' are alveolo-palatal fricatives along with 's&#775;' and 'z&#775;' when they are palatalised by a following 'i'. Not only is this the same exact sound as the Russian postalveolar fricatives, it also uses the same exact concept of palatalisation.--67.177.36.200 01:42, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

From what I've heard, you guys are all correct about the nature of the sound corresponding to this letter, except that it's actually pronounced as a long sound (from its origin as two different sounds). Benwing 04:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

As a practicing Polish speaker, I can confirm that in Polish, barszcz is said with two distinct consonants at the end. The 'cz' is a hard version of the english 'ch' and the 't' adds that quality to the 'ch'. The Russian 'щ' is always transliterated into 'szcz' in the Polish press. Gregmal (talk) 17:52, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Polish and Russian pronunciation of 'szcz'/'щ' are very different. Polish people can be identified by their pronunciation of the Russian 'щ' (Which sounds like 'шч' to a Russian ear). The best phonetic description of the Russian 'щ' using Polish letters is 'śś', there is no 'ч' in this sound in the standard Russian. --Atitarev (talk) 02:13, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Do not confuse the pronunciation of 'щ' by those in the east of Poland with pronunciation by the rest of the country. 'щ' is very much hard in pronunciation of both 'sz' & 'cz'. Gregmal (talk) 12:32, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not confusing. I am talking about the Russian pronunciation, which I know is different from the Polish. Even if 'щ' is pronounced as 'śś' /ɕɕ/ in Russian, it is traditionally transliterated as 'shch', making a historical link to Ukrainian and Polish (the Ukrainian 'щ' is more like the Polish 'szcz'). If you read carefully again, I am agreeing with transliteration but explaining how this is said in standard modern Russian - /borɕɕ/ or /borʃʲʃʲ/, not /borʃʧ/ as already explained before, the former is Ukrainian (at least in the West). --Atitarev (talk) 13:25, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The "Russian" pronunciation in the Ukraine, (at least in Kiev where my mother came from) is "Borshch" - there is certainly no such thing as Ukrainian "Borsht" as in the picture - it would be борщ - NO "T"!! My family's version uses smoked bacon as the base, with much more cabbage than beetroot. But beetroot is essential to distinguish it from Russian "Shchi". I squeeze garlic into mine and add home made "smyetana", cultured from cream with yoghurt culture. Also, I serve it with home made rye sourdough bread. As a friend of mine said once "Borshch is not so much a recipe, as a concept". Sasha (talk) 23:29, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Should "sai chaan" be in the article?
Who cares? This edit war is LAME. -- JamesTeterenko 00:07, 14 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yup. I've protected this page; everyone please go contribute somewhere else for a few days.  —Michael Z. 2006-01-14 17:21 Z 


 * Please accept my apology for the trouble it may have caused. Your contribution is desparately needed to help solve the matter, and will be highly appreciated. Thank you. &mdash; Instantnood 23:58, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Green borscht?
When I lived in Ukraine (Odessa), whenever we were served borscht we were asked if we wanted red borscht or green borscht. Obviously the red borscht is the subject of this article, but should green borscht be mentioned somewhere? (I believe it had dill in it; I don't remember exactly because I always ate the red version.) Likewise, Polish restaurants I've eaten at in the U.S. offer a choice of red borscht or white borscht. Even if the green and white versions aren't true borscht per se, it might be worth mentioning that these other non-beet-based soups are also called borscht. Thanks and cпасибо, Dmp348 22:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe white borscht is the red one with sourcream? I always eat it with sourcream, much tastier that way. There is also so-called green soup, made from Stinging nettle, but it has little to do with borscht.  Grue   13:13, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you guys talking about Schav? Made from sour grass (sorrel) sometimes mixed with spinach? But I've never heard it called "green borscht." It's a much different taste than any borscht, but is also eaten with sour cream. -- Cecropia 16:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I confirm that green borscht is sorrel soup Karol Szafranski 22:15, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I would not be so sure. May be different uses. see eg  `'Míkka 22:48, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

The key ingredients of green borscht (Ukrainian) are sorrel and NETTLE. The rest is similar to red borcsht, excepting the beet. It's a summer green coloured version, serve chilled. BTW, the foregoing receipts are wrong. By this way you can only get an uneatable and stinking slush.

Merging
I merged the polish regional borscht article in with this one as a complete copy paste with a few internal links added in. I make it its own subsection and renamed the recipies section to fit. DLPanther 21:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Cold borscht should be merged too. —Michael Z. 2007-09-30 17:05 Z 
 * I've added the merge templates to both articles. It could become a subsection of this article; I'm not exactly certain where to put the Cold borscht content. Hellbus 02:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Please don't merge cold Borscht with Borscht. It is not the same and it is not a local variant. We have both Borscht and Cold Borscht in Lithuania. Hugo.arg (talk) 15:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, they're different still. Epson291 09:41, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * But they are already both in this article. Epson291 07:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Spelling
IT IS SPELLED "BORSCHT". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.203.206.189 (talk • contribs) 16:45, 23 July 2008
 * As it is (correct me if I'm wrong) transliterated from other alphabets, it's hard to say that there is one single correct spelling in this alphabet. However, you are quite right that the spelling used throughout the article should match the spelling in the article's title. So thank you for making that correction for consistency. --Icarus (Hi!) 23:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

"Russian and Ukrainian: борщ, Polish: barszcz" The cyrillic letter Щщ is read in Russian and Ukrainan as "shch", in Bulgarian as "sht". Cantabo07 (talk) 04:13, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

"Obiad"
"obiad (main meal eaten in the early afternoon)" -- can't we replace this with "lunch"? If it's different, please explain what the difference is. Otherwise, we might as well replace all the English words in the article with their native transliterations. -Pgan002 (talk) 08:56, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * is lunch a main meal? replace it with "dinner", if you have to, that would be more appropriate. "Obiad" is not the same as lunch, and not the same thing as dinner, but I understand the concern. Maybe just put "main meal" instead? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.163.254.157 (talk) 18:30, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree with "dinner" --Abatishchev (talk) 20:08, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Baby Borscht?
There is a request for an article on "Baby Borscht" for WP: Food and drink that I went and set up a redir to this article for; the only info I was able to find that may relate to this as a separate dish are a borscht flavored baby food and borscht recipes using baby vegetables... I figure we leave it as a redirect and add a section in this article if there is any notability to "baby" borscht. Irontobias (talk) 22:19, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Hogweed soup - звучит угрожающе (sounds terrible)
Please, make a note, that only Heracleum sibiricum (Siberian hogweed) is suitable for cooking borscht. Most of other hogweeds are extremely poisonous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.195.86 (talk) 18:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Ukrainian origins
Regarding the claim that borscht is "of Ukrainian origin", this definitely needs a citation from WP:reliable sources. I have removed this claim (now twice) because it was unsupported. Based on the popularity and cultural importance of this dish among Slavic and other peoples in that geographic region, as well as its etymological history across Slavic languages (coming from the word for hogweed and hogweed soup), I have major doubts that this dish is in fact attributable to just Ukrainian origins (and that there is a general consensus on this). It was probably a regional culinary development. For example, this cookbook (admittedly, not an academic source) attributes the soup to Russian and Polish origins. If there are reliable sources to support the claim of Ukrainian origins, then please include them, but I'm going to predict that there's not really a consensus as to the origins of the dish. -Krasnoludek (talk) 12:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Here we go..., ,
 * Borscht can't have Polish origin because in Polish it is called barscht, not borscht.
 * Borscht can't have Russian origin because of the following reasons. The main ingredient of classic borscht is a beetroot. The beetroot is a plant from warm Mediterranean region. In the 10th c. this plant was imported to Kievan Rus from Byzantium and in 11th c. th Rus people begun to cultivate it in their homeland. The region of cultivation, however, was measured by southern Rus /Ruthenia (that is modern Ukraine: Galicia, Volynia, Kiev, Chernihiv regions) because of the climate. Beetroot was used as addition to cabbage soup shchi. Shchi with a beetroot was called Borshch, that means "red Shchi" (buryi / bryi shchi. By the way, in Ukrainian beetroot is called "buryak" that is "red beet"). In Russia (nothern Rus) it was impossible to cultivate beetroot and the culture of shchi has　been preserved. On the contrary, in Ukraine (southern Rus) shchi was totally replaced by borscht. Russians learned how to cook borscht from Cossacks of Ukraine only in the mid. of the 17th c. At that time they called borscht a "beetroot soup" or "svekolnik" ("svekla" means beetroot in Russian) and the culture of eating borscht in Russia was spread only in the late 18th c.
 * From 14th till 20th c. Ukraine (Ruthenia) was "owned" by Lituania, Poland, and Russia. Thus no wonder that Ukrainian borscht has entered into cuisines of these countries.
 * Also, Ukraine used to be a homeland to many Jewish people, who were prohibited to settle in Russian mainlands. They adopted Ukrainian borscht and changed the ingredients in accordance to their Law. After Pogroms in the 19th-20th c. many of Jews migrated to US and popularized borscht (not polish barszcz) in US...--59.141.18.155 (talk) 15:15, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the book citations. Your argument about beet origins seems to be well supported. The English, French and Polish entries for beet all have different sources that confirm these origins (on a side note, these sources should be incorporated into the English article; I'll try to do it if I have time). In short, those two parts of your argument convinced me that there's enough evidence to point to Ukrainian origins. I just want to point out, though, that your linguistic argument against Polish origin isn't valid: the name "borscht" isn't more "correct" than the Polish word "barszcz". The name generally used in English is simply an artifact of which groups came into first and most prominent contact with English speakers and introduced the soup. In this case, the Russian/Ukrainian pronunciations were adopted into English, but none of this has any bearing on where the soup originated, just who introduced it to English speakers.


 * Another point you make is interesting: that the word borscht comes from the Ukrainian for "beets' shchi" (buryi shchi). While that's linguistically feasible, there's also the hogweed hypothesis, which seems to be the origin of the word preferred by etymologists. Hogweed is barszcz in Polish (the same word as the soup), and looking at Russian and Ukrainian, those languages' words for borscht also appear as the beginning syllable for their words for hogweed, followed by what I'm guessing is a common noun suffix (івник in Ukrainian, евик in Russian). There was also a hogweed soup with that name. This etymology is confirmed by the following sources:
 * American Heritage Dictionary (scroll down to the entry)
 * Online Etymology Dictionary
 * the Russian WP page for hogweed
 * these citations to etymological dictionaries of Slavic languages, listed on the Russian borscht WP page.
 * I'm curious what the OED's etymological analysis is, but I don't have access to this at home, so I'll have to ask a friend to look it up. OED just lists the etymology as coming from Russian into English (earliest attestation 1884) and stops there. I would be interested in finding out how the beet soup usurped the name of the hogweed soup, but I don't know where to look for such a source.
 * So, I'm now content with the inclusion of "Ukrainian origins" into article because I think you've sufficiently justified that the use of beets to make such a soup originated there. Thanks for your help, it's appreciated. -Krasnoludek (talk) 16:22, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

With all due respect to the Ukrainian nation, I can't stop wondering why we say that borscht has Ukrainian origin while there is no proof that Ukrainian nation or state did exist as a separate entity by the time this soup was "invented"?Yuniq (talk) 22:51, 24 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Why was the section on Ukrainian orifin of Borsch removed and without any discussion? Mykyta (talk) 02:56, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Root parsley
The section on Polish barszcz claimed that parnsip is one of the vegetables added, but I am pretty sure from my own experience that parsnips (pasternak) are rare in Poland, whereas root parsley (pietruszka) is added to many Polish soups. The two vegetables look similar, and root parsley is little known in English speaking countries, hence the confusion. I have changed it. Toroboro (talk) 23:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. Parsley root (pietruszka) is the common vegetable in soups in Poland, whereas parsnip is not used and therefore not part of the traditional recipe. It can be used as a substitute in other places such as the US. -Krasnoludek (talk) 13:03, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Move to Borsch
Today an admin moved the page from Borscht to Borsch, arguing"there is no 't' in there, either in Ukrainian or Russian - its source languages." As has been discussed several times on this talk page, there's a reason to put the 't' in there if you use another Slavic language as a source and even if you use Ukrainian or Russian as a source. This is also not simply a question of transliteration from the original language(s) either, since the word entered English several decades ago and so already has established spellings in English. Per WP:ENGLISH, the name of the article should follow its most common name in English language references. Merriam-Webster gives its main entry as "borscht" and Dictionary.com indicates that both the Random House dictionary and the American Heritage dictionary list "borscht" as their main entry. Even if this is not enough evidence to have the article be named "borscht", it should be enough evidence that this move should not have been done without a proper move proposal and discussion. -Krasnoludek (talk) 17:10, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree this should not have been renamed. Even though I personally speak and write in en-GB, the predominant spelling used in English is "borscht", as listed in the dictionaried mentioned above. The MW dictionary mentions "borsch" only as an alternative (and therefore less common) spelling. The Oxford English dictionary (normally considered the definitive dictionary for en-GB) lists it as "bortsch", again listing "borsch" only as an alternative spelling. I am told that Encyclopedia Britannica lists it as "borsch", however, but that is not considered a definitive source for written English. None of the major definitive English dictionaries for the alternative dialects lists "borsch" as a predominant spelling. TarquinWJ (talk) 18:33, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Tarquin, thanks for checking what the OED entry states. I don't have subscription access so couldn't do it myself. -Krasnoludek (talk) 19:26, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Comments:
 * Borsch is not an original English word but is a transliteration of Ukrainian/Russian Борщ. Letter щ and corresponding sound are absent in most languages, its transliteration is not firmy established and can be found as sch, shch, sometimes tsh or tch, but never with t at the end (borscht is an exception being discussed; please give another example if you know it) because all translit system assume that "t" at the end of a Russian/Ukrainian word/syllabus is pronounced as "t" whereas Борщ does not and did not have t in its native pronunciation.
 * Example: my paper OED (1997) gives only bortsch, borsch and bortsch alternatives.
 * Internet is a different story (partly because if someone like wikipedia started using borscht, this is immediately picked up by an avalanche). Thus Britannica does list lists borscht, but uses borsch as main spelling. Google frequency is 410k for borsch, and 392k for borscht; 262k for borshch and 6k for borshcht. Google books: 2200 for borsch and 1810 for borscht, 814 for borshch, 89 for borshcht. Again, this has been affected by wikipedia which used borscht as main name.
 * Note that Borsch Belt is a more delicate story. Materialscientist (talk) 22:26, 9 June 2010 (UTC)


 * No one was claiming that Borscht is originally an English word. Its Slavic origins are well-documented in dictionaries and in this WP article. However the word entered the English language as a loan word and thus has established several standard spellings. According to WP:English, the most commonly used one in reliable reference sources should be the one that the article is titled. You have provided one dictionary source, the OED, which lists "borsch" second, not first, as well as the encyclopedia source Britannica, which lists "borsch" first. In constrast, I have provided three well-recognized American English dictionaries (Merriam-Webster, American Heritage and Random House), where "borscht" is the main entry, followed by "borsch". I did not resort to a Google popularity contest, because that is not considered a reliable source, in part for the reasons you stated. So currently that's 3 reliable sources for "borscht" compared to 1.5 for "borsch".
 * The third paragraph of WP:English specifically speaks about transliteration from languages like Russian: "do not substitute a systematically transliterated name for the common English form of the name, if there is one; thus, use Tchaikovsky or Chiang Kai-shek even though those are unsystematic." So your argument about whether the transliteration from Russian/Ukrainian is "correct" is irrelevant to these considerations according to the MOS. The word exists (for several decades now) in numerous English language dictionaries and so we should be consulting those to determine the most common spelling in English and name the article using that name. These guidelines are all elaborated on in the MOS I've linked to above. Incidentally, they also apply to the Borscht Belt article, where the literature strongly prefers the "borscht" spelling. -Krasnoludek (talk) 12:55, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 * (quick reply before going offline). As I mentioned, OED does not even list borscht (try searching there). Webster is Ok, but their www.merriam-webster.com site does not look trustworthy. dictionary.reference.com falls short in my view of a solid WP:RS. Thus 2/1 by my count, not 1.5/3. Let us imagine it is moot on WP:RS. Then my other arguments will start playing a role. Materialscientist (talk) 13:19, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned in replying to TarquinWJ, I cannot search OED since it is a subscription site and I am not subscribed. But I trust what both you and Tarquin report from that dictionary. OED is a well-known dictionary, but that is only one dictionary and reflects primary British usage. Merriam Webster is perhaps the most well-known American English dictionary and Dictionary.com is also considered a reliable source, being used in many articles and listed on many WP help pages on dictionary-related topics, e.g. here. Your value judgments of those dictionaries aside, my original point still is valid: that there's enough evidence here that a formal move proposal should have been done, with the input of multiple editors. This was not a clearcut case (and even less so with Borscht Belt, where all the references use a 't' in refering to the topic). -Krasnoludek (talk) 15:21, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was 'move per request per WP:UCN. The uncontroverted evidence provided below is that borscht, rather than borsch is the common spelling used in reliable English language sources as to both the food item and the Catskill Mountains resort area.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:29, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Borsch → Borscht — Both articles had a 't' in their names before an admin changed them without first seeking consensus, despite the history of discussion about the name in the talk page, which qualifies it as a "potentially controversial move". In the above section on Talk:Borsch, I cited three American English dictionaries that have the primary spelling as "borscht" and all references for the Borsch Belt article also spell it "borscht". Issues of transliteration from Russian/Ukrainian have been discussed on the talk page as well. Krasnoludek (talk) 03:02, 4 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Borsch Belt → Borscht Belt


 * To add some more evidence. The Oxford American Dictionary (1980 Oxford University Press) has "borscht" as main entry, with "borsch" as second. It only has the spelling "borscht belt" for that subentry. I have also taken the liberty of notifying User:Materialscientist and User:TarquinWJ since they were both involved in the above informal discussion. -Krasnoludek (talk) 03:07, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Moved back Borsch Belt (agree). Strongly disagree with another move. I've listed some arguments above and will start repeating/adding below.
 * (i) Support of Borsch by Britannica and Oxford Dictionary are strong enough to at least hold this move.
 * (ii) There is apparently no clear consensus on predominant spelling Borsch/Borscht, either on the Internet or on WP (see my comments above), though there is some predominance of the Borsch usage, and thus one has to look at the roots of the word and the rules of spelling/grammar. Let me start with some WP:OR: Borscht spelling likely originates from Yiddish (where it is correct) and Borsch from Russian/Ukrainian (where Borscht is incorrect). It is natural that the Yiddish spelling was picked up by many. However, most sources would agree on that the object is of Slavic origin (Ukrainian, Russian, or etc is not an issue as those nations were not distinguished at that time).
 * (iii) To answer your transliteration comment above - it is not relevant because there is no dominant usage of the non-standard transliteration, like for Tchaikovsky (which is far less regular than borscht, by the way). Materialscientist (talk) 05:12, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support moving both to use "Borscht". I have only ever seen this spelled with a "t" in English, and other languages are beside the point. In particular, the contention that the English spelling is irregular in some other language is entirely irrelevant. — Gavia immer (talk) 18:14, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support moving both to "Borscht". While my wife is a Russian speaker from Ukraine and I have lived there, it breaks my heart to have to say that the common English spelling is "borscht" from Yiddish.  The English Wikipedia doesn't care about the ultimate origin of a word, but only the common English usage.  Unfortunately for English speakers of Eastern Slavic origin, the most common English form (at least in the U.S.) is "borscht".  I tell my friends and acquaintances here "No, it's borsch", but the next time I see them, they say "borscht" again.  --Taivo (talk) 22:44, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support moving both to "Borscht". First, according to my personal experience - I recognize this word as "Borscht", not the other spelling. In addition, in front of me, at this moment, I have the The Merriam-Webster Dictionary - New Edition - copyright 2004 - isbn-978-0-87779-930-6. The entry is for "borscht" with no mention of another spelling. Also, I consider the online version of the Merriam-Webster Dictionary to be a reliable source, as well. As has been pointed out the main online entry is "borscht" and lists "borsch" as a "variant". So, is a variant of a word considered to have equal weight? In any case the print dictionary that I have lists only the one spelling. Also, online Merriam-Webster, there is "borscht belt" with no variant and "borscht circuit" with a variant as "borsch circuit". Anyway, I support moving both to "Borscht"  Steve Quinn (talk) 05:30, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * support (Borsch Belt → Borscht Belt), but keep borsch as is - unless someone puts together a proper article on borscht (the gooey canned stuff sold in the US supermarkets). The original EE borsch and the Jewish-American borscht (at least in its supermarket variety) are two distinct things. I'd recommend retaining the Jewish-American version for the borscht belt. There's no need to trace primordial roots for what is a clearly modern, and clearly American phenomenon. Note: my moniker gives away the strongest COI possible :)) East of Borschov 06:34, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * oppose Borscht is wrong transcription. It is not pronounced like this, Cyrillic “щ” (the last letter in the original Ukrainian word “борщ”) can be transliterated as “tsch” or “shch” (see, for instance, this table. Thus, more proper transcriptions are bortsch and borshch. --Pavlo Chemist (talk) 08:42, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * All of that is correct as far as the transcription of the Ukrainian and Russian languages go, but we are talking about the word used in English, not the correct transcription of another language. — Gavia immer (talk) 14:47, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support both as usage. There are two outliers in the OED's quotations, one is a letter from 1884 about "a strange thing called borsch"; another is Vladimir Nabokov being pedantic (surprise!) and using borshch. Neither is conventional modern English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:00, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. The Oxford Dictionaries, of the notable and reliable source, Oxford University Press, lists and defines only "borscht", here. There is no mention of another spelling. Steve Quinn (talk) 00:21, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * How about the 3rd line from top in your link? The "same" Oxford dictionary (OED) but its other variation lists borsch only and does not mention borscht. It seems borscht dominates US sources and borsch UK sources; both spellings are used in US sources. Materialscientist (talk) 00:33, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are correct. I missed it somehow. "Borsch" is also listed. Thanks for pointing that out, because it is important to be accurate. Therefore, the only thing I can really say is that I am used to "borscht", and probably for the reason you just stated. I only recall seeing it spelled with the "t". However, that doesn't mean the other spelling is, or is not, frequently used. Hence, I can only say that there is no definitive authority on which is the correct spelling. Steve Quinn (talk) 05:57, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not a question of "correct" spelling, but only of the most common English spelling, which is "borscht". Looking only at dictionaries (which often list both the common spelling [first] and less common and even rare spellings [second]) is not a complete answer.  Look at the list of places to analyze in WP:NCON and find what other sources say.  Look at the list at the last naming dispute at Kiev.  Those are the ways to determine common usage.  Looking at a couple of dictionaries just isn't accurate, gentlemen and ladies.  The only guidance that we should be following in this discussion is WP:NCON and it's pretty clear what evidence is relevant and what isn't.  For example, the New York Times lists only four uses of "borsch" in the last twelve months and only two of those are for the food (the other are a personal name).  During the same period of time it has used "borscht" 1851 times the majority of which are for the food.  That's pretty conclusive evidence of English common usage.  The Times of London lists 12 uses of "borsch" since Oct 2006, several of which have to do with Borsch Electronics rather than the food.  Since Feb 2004, it has "borscht" 69 times, several of which have to do with "Borscht Belt" rather than the food.  That's further evidence that "borscht" is the solid favorite in English for this tasty Eastern Slavic soup.  The Sydney Morning Herald (using the default search) gives seven occurrences of "borsch" and 13 uses of "borscht".  Dictionaries and encyclopedias don't tell the story of common usage other than what they list first and what they list second.  You have to look to actual usage evidence (and we all know the failures and relative uselessness of Google searches in this regard).  Looking at three major newspapers from three different English-speaking countries, we find an overwhelming preference for "borscht".  --Taivo (talk) 12:31, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds like WP:OR with selecting "proper" sources. How about looking through Google books instead? Materialscientist (talk) 13:09, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Determining common usage is original research and it is the accepted Wikipedia method of determining common usage. Read WP:NCON and you will see that:  "Search engine testing sometimes helps decide which of alternative names is more common. When searching, restrict the results to pages written in English, and exclude the word "Wikipedia". It may also be useful to observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, geographic name servers, major scientific bodies and scientific journals. For detailed advice, see Search engine test".  That's Wikipedia's guidance and it does require actual research to find the answer.  I've demonstrated how to find media outlet information by providing the relevant searches from three of the "major English-language media outlets".  Heck, doing a Google search or Google Books search is "original research".  That's how it's done to determine what common English usage is.  --Taivo (talk) 13:36, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) You suggested Google Books so the search for "cooking, borsch" in English without the word "borscht" yielded 1320 results. Doing the same search but looking for books with "cooking, borscht" and not "borsch" yielded 5830 results. Still conclusive as to English usage. (You have to restrict the search with the word "cooking" or else you get proper nouns and "borscht belt"--we're just looking for the food. You also have to look for books that have one without the other in order to eliminate books that say "Borsch, also called borscht" or "Borscht, also called borsch".)  I tried a couple of different modifier words instead of "cooking" ("food", "soup") and the results were the same--"borscht" is about four times as common as "borsch". --Taivo (talk) 13:41, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Well done, Taivo . For me, this makes a very strong case for "borscht". I think this is what I was attempting to do with dictionary sources, but that turned out to be ineffective. And at first glance your demonstration seems to comply with the intent of WP:NCON. Steve Quinn (talk) 15:09, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Taivo, can you confirm that the common American borscht usage indeed refers to the soup and not to something else (from my American experience, borscht was used exclusively for a cold canned concoction, same color but nothing common in taste or appearance, - and it was not far from the notorious Borscht Belt :)). If that's the case (that *-t is, indeed, soup and not some peculiar Ashkenazi delicacy), then the case is closed. East of Borschov 16:23, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course, there are always semantic shifts that occur with words that are borrowed from one language to another. But I've never, ever heard of your "canned concoction" and I've lived in the U.S. all my life (it's probably a beet broth concentrate from your description, and, of course, Campbell's green pea soup doesn't taste like fresh green pea soup).  "Borscht" to me was always Russian beet soup.  But even if there were canned "borscht" it doesn't change the fact that the most common English term for Russian beet soup (whether fresh or canned) is "borscht".  And even if "borscht" mean something else besides Russian beet soup, it's like "ass"--it can refer to things besides Equus africanus, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't still refer to Equus africanus.  But to address the issue directly, if you look at the brief sentences appended to the searches I cited above or to the book titles in Google Books, they are invariably recipes for borsch(t) in cook books or descriptions of food in Eastern Europe.  While there might be a few references to something canned that you remember from your childhood, the vast majority of references are to Eastern European beet soup--and in the cook books that certainly means something freshly made.  --Taivo (talk) 17:59, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It is a shame that a situation could arise where a mis–spelled word becomes "normal" because/and wiki supports the mis–spelling. I am not trying to persuade anyone in this debate as although I have to use the Wiki policy, and use the more common english, such as Kiev - I firmly support the correct version here in this case and not the most common.
 * I would always get annoyed at people who spell my surname as "sh" instead of "sz" and suspect that Taivo would become quickly annoyed if people started spelling his name as "Taevo" and then declared that he was not able to use Taivo as the majority of wiki users supported "Taevo" and a search engine had 10,300 for Taevo and only 2,300 for Taivo.
 * While I appreciate this is not the same situation it is, nonetheless, a problem.
 * As I said before; the (unfortunate in this one case) situation is that Wiki policy means we have to use "Borscht" even though many people, including Ukrainians and their descendants, use "Borsch". After all it appears that Salo is always covered in chocolate and is a mainstay of the Ukrainian diet :¬)
 * As a matter of interest does your wife speak Ukrainian as well as Russian ?
 * Chaosdruid (talk) 00:34, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * "Borscht" isn't misspelled because English did not borrow it from Ukrainian or Russian, but from Yiddish, where it is spelled "borscht". Wikipedia policy (WP:NCON) is crystal clear--we use the most common English spelling.  The "correct" English spelling today is "borscht" although that doesn't mean that "borsch" is incorrect (in other words, it's not wrong just because "borscht" is right).  In 100 years maybe "borsch" will be the most common spelling and Wikipedia can change the title of its article, but today, it's clearly and unequivocally "borscht" in the great majority of cases (at least four times as often as "borsch").  This is policy.  (My wife understands Ukrainian, but only speaks Russian.  Since they're basically two divergent dialects of a single East Slavic language--separated by politics rather than an intelligibility barrier--this is common in eastern Ukraine.  We lived in western Ukraine for a year and she had no problems understanding Ukrainian.)  --Taivo (talk) 02:14, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Lol - I think you'll find that was what i said - maybe go and have a nice cup of tea and a biscuit...
 * Things like "This is policy" make it sound like you think I do not understand policy when that was what I was just saying in my post.
 * And lets not confuse English with American :¬) Most of the people I know use Borsch, even in Sweden when I had it it was spelled correctly, Borsch.
 * Chaosdruid (talk) 03:13, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * My apologies if I misunderstood your post. Wouldn't be the first time (and probably won't be the last either, lol).  In the U.S., "borscht" is clearly the preference (even when I tell people the -t version, they use the t again the next time I see them).  But even the Times of London uses "borscht" about five times more often than it uses "borsch".  I'm not surprised at you hearing "borsch" more often in Sweden since the Russian language influence is much stronger there, but Swedish usage doesn't count in the English Wikipedia ;)  But "borscht" isn't "wrong" as you imply.  It's borrowed from Yiddish, not Russian, so the "t" is "correct" in that sense.  --Taivo (talk) 03:37, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Tomato
I would like to see some research as to when tomatos became an ingredient. if borscht dates to before 1600, which is likely, then tomato may have been used as a substitute for beets once people started eating them in europe. if borscht dates to after that time, they would be two versions of this soup with roughly similar pedigrees.(mercurywoodrose)76.245.45.179 (talk) 01:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Pokhlyobkin's recipes
In Cuisines of Our Peoples, William Pokhlyobkin describes the following variations of Ukrainian borsht: — Kpalion(talk) 11:05, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Basic Ukrainian borscht made with meat-and-bone stock and beets braised in vinegar;
 * Advanced Ukrainian borscht made with beef or pork stock cooked with sour rye meal; chopped ham is also added together with vegatables;
 * Kiev borsht made with beef cooked with rye bread-and-beet sour with the addition of braised mutton;
 * Poltava borscht made with goose or duck stock and served with buckwheat halushki;
 * Chernihiv borscht made with beef or pork stock, soured only with tart apples and tomatoes;
 * Lviv borscht made with marrowbone stock, soured with vinegar and served with fried chopped sausages;

Move to Borshch?
Isn't it the time to name it properly - Borshch? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abatishchev (talk • contribs) 17:33, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please read the discussions above. Materialscientist (talk) 23:37, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Mongolia
In Mongolia it is "universally" known and quite popular.Kdammers (talk) 05:48, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Cold borscht with potato
The photograph accompanying "cold borscht" includes what appears to be a peeled boiled potato with the bowl of soup. Is this standard? If so, is it limited to Lithuanian cuisine? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 17:34, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Marking against Russian
There seems to be definite tendency to purge references to Russian in this article. This is an excellent example.

I don't mind discussing the level of details in the lead, but I'm thoroughly annoyed that the audio file of the Russian pronunciation of the word was removed and not re-added until I noticed after seven years.

Removing linguistic references to Russian and Russian pronunciation is clearly some about nationalism, not concern for article quality. Borscht is a vital part of numerous Central and European cuisines, including Russian cuisine, which is likely the best known to the rest of the world. The Ukrainian origins of this dish should under no circumstances obscure its importance to Russians, Poles, Lithuanians, etc. I urge all users here to watch out for any and all chauvinist Ukrainian editing.

Peter Isotalo 00:53, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, no, Peter. Borsch originated in Ukraine.  That fact is based on reliable sources, some of them about "Russian culture" that predate the Russian invasion of Ukraine.  If we want to include the Russian pronunciation, then we must also include the pronunciation from every other language where borsch is part of the cuisine.  We include Ukrainian because it is the source.  Indeed, the only other language besides Ukrainian where a pronunciation might be appropriate is Yiddish since that is the origin of the English "-t" on the end.  Russian should have no special treatment here.  If you are going to include Polish, Lithuanian, Mongolian, etc., then Russian can be included.  Otherwise it's just another of a dozen users and not unique, unlike Ukrainian.  --Taivo (talk) 17:19, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * You are not entitled to remove a helpful audio file because it's not available in every single language. The "special treatment" you're talking about is simply extra effort. If you want a Ukrainian pronunciation of borscht in the article, make that extra effort yourself instead of undoing others. That kind of editing is merely destructive.
 * Peter Isotalo 17:36, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Russian Times is not a reliable source
An anon IP has recently used an article in the Russia Times as a source to claim that borsch is of Russian origin. Russian Times is widely known to be a Kremlin-controlled propaganda tool and, especially in these times, is used as a means to eliminate all reference to Ukrainian culture and history as separate from Russian culture and history. --Taivo (talk) 15:06, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Russia Times is fiercely pro-Russian and hardly reliable about these matters and is a poor source overall when it comes to history.
 * However, I think it is about time we describe that there is a dispute on the origins influenced by nationalist sentiment. There's been just as eager attempts from pro-Ukrainian editors to remove content relating to borscht in Russian cuisine.
 * Peter Isotalo 16:29, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Wrong, Peter. There was no dispute until the recent Russian invasion.  There are multiple non-Ukrainian reliable sources that point to Ukraine as the origin of borsch.  Indeed, if you look at the sources listed above here, two of the most reliable sources are books on Russian culture (written a number of years ago) that specifically point to Ukraine.  This isn't a nationalist issue at all, it is the text as it stood until Russian trolls and propaganda started to reduce Ukraine to a Russian province.  --Taivo (talk) 17:10, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Here are the reliable sources listed above:, ,   --Taivo (talk) 17:13, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I was just about to point out that there is not a single image of Russian borscht in the article. Except for the oddity of cosmonaut rations. Either we have literally no images on Commons of Russian borscht, or there have been pretty concerted attempts to minimize Russian borscht.
 * And as for "wrong", you don't seem to be paying attention here. You just reverted my attempt to focus the lead on the variants of borscht in modern cuisines. You simply assumed that I removed the statement about Ukrainian origins because I moved it I simply phrased this article as with pizza and hamburger. Neither of those begin by lecturing about origins but by describing the actual dish. That's obviously what the average reader would expect to find.
 * As for evidence of obviously pro-Ukrainian attempts remove or hide Russian aspects, note this edit from way back in 2007. Both Ukrainians and Russians are using this topic as a nationalist battlefield and your claim that I am "wrong" about something I haven't denied isn't helping. This is an article about a dish that is popular in several contemporary cuisines. The article should primarily focus on that, not who invented it.
 * Peter Isotalo 17:29, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * This article was stable as is for a long time (while there was the occasional vandal, it was not common). Just because Russian trolls have become more common after the Russian invasion doesn't mean that you have to promote the Russianness of borsch along with them.  Ukraine should be first on the list since it is the country of origin.  --Taivo (talk) 18:07, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * You saw the diffs for yourself. Ukrainian "trolls" were also active long before the Crimean crisis. This is clearly a contentious issue where both sides are trying to trump or exclude the other. You are doing exactly the same and actively arguing that Ukrainian culture is somehow of primary importance. Please keep the current animosity between Ukraine and Russia out of this. This is about a dish that is central to several cuisine, especially the Russian and Ukrainian ones. I have no personal experience of Polish and Belarusian food, but I assume it's pretty central there as well.
 * This is not history of borscht. It's about contemporary cuisines and I don't see that you have any argument that Ukrainian cuisine should have precedence before all others. And that the article was written a certain way before is not a valid argument to revert anything.
 * Peter Isotalo 23:39, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

borsch vs borscht
dear readers and contributors, I live in Romania for all my 47 years, first eating, then preparing myself this local dish by recipes learned from my mother (who was an awesome cook, like almost all romanian mothers, and she learned from my grandma, which learned from her mom and so on - cooking knowledge runs in the family here) and the appelative "borsch" - with a strong, distinct "r" - is the correct spelling of the name of this main dish, specifically without the "t" in the end, not just here in Romania, but in other 15 different countries from Eastern Europe - all my respect for jewish cuisine, though. this appelative is defined exclusively by the sour agent - a fermented cereals-based sour liquid (based on rye / whey / corn husk + flour mix, yeast added - I can post the recipe for the ones interested in it), very rich in all vitamins B, other vitamins and minerals (extracted from the husk during the fermentation).

the other recipes, including lemon juice, vinegar, sauerkraut liquid, tomatoes, unripen wax cherry fruits, green grapes and so on, are therefore named "ciorba" (pronounced like Tchaikovsky, no offence) - so the affirmation on the "en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borscht" page, regarding Romanian cuisine, which says: "Romanian gastronomy uses with no discrimination the words ciorbă, borș or, sometimes, zeamă/acritură" is utterly false. here only an ignorant housewife would use such confusion of terms.

so, to be clear: every sour soup prepared in our country starting with vegetables, with or without white / red meat, fish etc, will be called borsch only when the sour agent is the fermented liquid mentioned above. and every person who pretends to know all about it just reading online, looking from afar or visiting one of the contries / regions whose cuisine includes this specific dish is wrong. I experienced myself russian borsch recipes, with red beet, cabbage etc, so I know well what the other contributors were writing about. btw, the Ukrainian people also call it "zamă", with no "e" inside of that word.

and another thing: the name of the dish is composed using the basic word "borsch" (again, this spelling is much closer to the original word), then adding the main ingredient, as in "chicken borsch", "white bean borsch", "green beans borsch", "courgettes borsch" and so on. also, the aromatic herbs used to complete the taste of this great dish are different, according to recipe, to the main ingredient and of course according to one's particular taste: for kidney beans the housewives will use mostly thyme, for chicken, fish, potatoes or courgettes will use lovage, and so on.

please read more, talk online with people who actually live in those countries and cook in the family for dozens of years a specific dish, before posting here - take with a grain of salt the writings of authors like the one who wrote "Culture and Customs of Russia", or just think again before applying that information on every country where this dish is prepared and served on a daily basis. thank you.

Tigerlily67 (talk) 15:20, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

References: http://www.gustos.ro/retete-culinare/cautare/bors/ and other similar cooking sites — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tigerlily67 (talk • contribs) 15:05, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter how the word "borsch" is spelled in any other countries or languages. All that matters is how it is spelled in English.  The most common spelling in English is "borscht" because English borrowed the word from Yiddish, not from any Slavic or other language.  Yiddish borrowed the word from some Eastern European Slavic language, but by the time the word got to the shores of America and was borrowed into American English, the "t" had appeared.  That's all that matters.  We've had this discussion before and it doesn't need reiterating, but the crux of the matter is that English regularly spells this word with a "t", so that's the way it has to be spelled in Wikipedia per WP:COMMONNAME.  --Taivo (talk) 16:17, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with Taivo. I lived half my childhood in Russia, so I'm perfectly aware that "bors(c)h" is closer to the general Slavic pronunciation. But loanwords don't always follow the rules of logic, and that's just the way it is. We're not here to right great wrongs.
 * Peter Isotalo 17:59, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

"Common hogweed, historically the principal ingredient of borscht" - is this a joke?
Common hogweed is the prindipal ingredient of borshch? Is this some sort of trolling?--128.84.124.169 (talk) 20:11, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
 * No. Please give me some time to write the history section. I'm still gathering sources, but they clearly indicate that common hogweed was the original ingredient of borscht. — Kpalion(talk) 21:21, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Is borscht of Russian origin?
Here's what the famous Russian food writer Vilyam Pokhlyobkin wrote about the issue in his National Cuisines of Our Peoples ("our peoples" referring to the various ethnic groups of the Soviet Union):

Elsewhere in the same book, he unequivocally assigns borscht to Ukrainian cuisine:

Translations:

I plan to eventually work the first quote into the article, but for now let it stay here to help prevent further edit-warring over borscht's alleged Russianness. — Kpalion(talk) 09:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 14:25, 1 May 2016 (UTC)