Talk:Bosnian pyramid claims/Archive 2

More Refs
The Economist: "Bosnia's pyramids: A towering success"

Robert M. Schoch, "The Bosnian Pyramid Phenomenon"

John Bohannon, "Mad About Pyramids", Science Magazine 

(above added 00:48, 26 September 2006 by Ronz)

Ian Traynor, "Tourists flock to Bosnian hills but experts mock amateur archaeologist's pyramid claims" --Ronz 17:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Old Visoki fort, Bosnian National Monument --Ronz 18:02, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

"Pyramid No More: Sphinx geologist Robert Schoch and anomalies researcher Colette Dowell report from Bosnia", Sub Rosa, Issue 6, Oct 2006. --Ronz 04:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

"Researchers Helpless as Bosnian Pyramid Bandwagon Gathers Pace", Science Magazine, 22 December 2006, p. 1862 --Ronz 19:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Declaration from the European Association of Archaeologists, 11 Dec 2006 --Ronz 19:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

"The great Bosnian pyramid scheme" by Anthony Harding, British Archaeology November/December 2006 --Ronz 23:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

"An open letter from the Bosnian scientific community to M. Christian Schwarz-Schilling, High Representative of the international community in Bosnia and Herzegovina" (Haven't found other copies of this letter as yet) --Ronz 19:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

"Come see the pyramids ... in Bosnia?", The Christian Science Monitor, March 29, 2007 --Ronz 20:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

"The Great Pyramids of ... Bosnia?" by Colin Woodard. The Chronicle of Higher Education, March 30, 2007. . "'It is not possible that those are pyramids,' says Mark Rose, of the Archaeological Institute of America, who organized a petition asking Unesco, the United Nations' education-and-science agency, not to send a proposed expedition to the site. 'Every major media outlet that initially covered this story got it wrong. It's clearly crackpot stuff, but apparently nobody bothered to check the story.'""But as pyramid mania has grown, spread by credulous accounts, those who have expressed skepticism have been savaged in the Bosnian news media, deluged with hate mail, even labeled traitors to their nation. Many observers now see the debate in stark terms: Will a pseudoscientific project, even one that serves to restore Bosnia's wounded pride and dignity, win out over peer-reviewed archaeological research?""Unesco does not intend to send a mission to Visoko, says Mechtild Rossler, of the organization's World Heritage Center, in Paris."--Ronz 00:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

"Bosnia archaeologists fight red tape, looters" Independent Online, May 21 2007. --Ronz 16:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

"Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun Loses Funding" Javno.com, 11 June 2007. -- Ronz 16:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

"Bosnia Pledges Renewed State Support for Study of 'Pyramids' Whose Existence Is Doubted by Scholars" The Chronicle of Higher Education, 16 July 16 2007. --Ronz 18:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

See Also List
Hi Gene, I saw that you reverted my edits on a couple of pyramid related pages to include links to the pages on Ukrainian and Bosnian pyramids (and for links to the pyramid category as well). I just wanted to clarify why these links do not belong. The Bosnian "pyramid" is considered a hoax. If the digging on the Bosnian hill does eventually reveal a pyramid, then the links are justified. However, until proof of a pyramid is found, the site remains a hill, with an archeologically significant medieval village on top. In the case of the Ukrainian pyramid, the press simply carried a wrong impression of the site into the popular culture. This innacuracy was soon clarified by the archaeologist in charge. Hiberniantears 12:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Please do not revert the external links sections of pyramid articles again. I am well aware that the Bosnian and Ukrainian "pramids" are not really pyramids, and that the scientific consensus supports this - however that is entirely beside the point; the main reason they are known by most people is because some people claimed they were pyramids; it is not for us to make value judgements concerning those claims; our job is simply to provide links to all pyramid-elated articles and let people read those articles and decide for themselves. The "see also" list is a list of related subjects - it is not merely a list of "legitimate pyramids". --Gene_poole 01:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think when something is either falsely called, or accidentally called, something it is not, no reasonable source of information would list it said entity under the misleading heading. For example, when a toddler calls a car a boat, the rest of the world does not have to amuse the toddler by now considering cars as boats "because some people claimed they were" boats. I realize you're taking an inclusionist stance on this, and I respect that. However, I think the fact that the articles themselves are already improperly named is inclusionist enough. Including the Ukrainian and Bosnian "pyramids" in a list of legitimate pyramids is very efficient way to undermine any intellectual weight this encyclopedia has. I think making lists of things which are entirely opposed to the scientific consensus (and in the case of the dig site in Ukraine, against the stated clarification by the archaeologist leading the dig) is irresponsible. To that end, I am once again making my reverts, but in the interest of fairness, I am also moving this conversation to the talk pages of the articles. Hiberniantears 12:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * One further point. This list, when it includes the disputed assortment of pyramids, becomes a fine example of Listcruft. Hiberniantears 18:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The "see also" section is meant to be a list of articles broadly related to the article subject. It is not intended merely as a list of "directly related subjects" - or in this case, a list of "authentic pyramids". Deliberately expunging links to articles on clearly related subjects as you are attempting to do constitutes an inappropriate application of a personal POV to the editing process; it is not our place to be making value judgements of this nature. I am consequently restoring the article to the default position prior to your edits. If you feel this is inappropriate, you may wish to establish a straw poll on the subject to help establish community consensus on the subject before attempting to implement further changes. --Gene_poole 22:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

About Visoki thing...
From Visoko during the Middle Ages


 * Archaeological excavations proved that the Visoko Valley was the center of a medieval Bosnian state and later kingdom. Many royal charters were written in Visoko and surrounding locations. Visoko Valley, as it is called today, included Visoko, its trade center, Podvisoki, Mile, coronation and burial place for Bosnian bans and kings, and Moštre, where Bosnian Church institutions were located, including a university.

Just to make it clear. Cheers. --HarisM 18:44, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that makes it clear. The quote in question is "Visočica hill, once the centre of the medieval Bosnian capital."  Seems like a minor issue though. --Ronz 19:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * What is clear that Visočica hill (Visočica is name adopted after 1945., before that it was called 'Grad' (simply: Town)) was NOT center. It is minor issue, and we should then mention that hill WAS occupied by town, and nothing more. Naming it center of capital is inaccurate. --HarisM 19:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Controversial?
The article leads off with "...highly controversial claims that it is actually an ancient man-made pyramid..." Are these claims really "highly controversial"? Or just idiotic? Abortion is highly controversial; the Iraq War is highly controversial; "highly controversial" pretty much implies that there's a lot of heated back-and-forth between two opposing camps. But there isn't; there's one idiot vs. everybody else.

We don't say in the Time Cube article that Time Cube is "highly controversial". Sheesh. As near as I can tell, it's just this guy Osmanagić's delusion. I don't know what change to suggest, but "highly controversial" seems weasely in the extreme. Herostratus 06:18, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes. See the discussions above. Early on, almost all the information available came from press releases from APBPSF (Archaeological Park: Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun Foundation).  APBPSF and it's members are not reliable sources.  The first sentence of the article, and probably much more, is mostly from these press releases.  Their press releases were an attempt, that succeeded in many ways, to make it the focus of international attention, but that doesn't mean such statments should be in the lead of the article.  As far as "highly controversial", that's again from their press releases.  There's certainly controversy still, but again it's pov directly from a source that's not reliable. --Ronz 17:23, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Feature article candidate?
Do others think that this article has reached featured article standard? As the original article creator I've had the pleasure of watching dozens of other editors turn this into a damned fine piece of work, over many months. I believe it's a great example of what a WP article should be. --Gene_poole 05:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If nothing else, we certainly should put the article up for WP:Peer review. It would be nice to get some new eyes scrutinizing the article, and it would be a step toward Featured article candidates. --Ronz 00:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I started a peer review: Peer review/Bosnian pyramids/archive1 --Ronz 23:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no pyramid - Majority viewpoint? Scientific consensus?
Do we have enough sources now to rewrite the article from the viewpoint that the scientific consensus is that there is no pyramid? Enough to rewrite from the perspective the viewpoints of the foundation and it's supporters are a minority?

The implications being that information from the foundation should not be given much weight except when supported by secondary sources. Currently, the article is still written from the perspective that the foundation's viewpoint is very important, even though we agreed that they are not a reliable source of information. See WP:NPOV, especially WP:WEIGHT. --Ronz 21:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree entirely. The article is about a "pyramid" in the same way Atlantis is about a "vanished continent". It must, by definition, give greater weight to lunatic fringe theories, because that's what it's about, and that's what what makes it interesting and notable. Otherwise it's just an article about a non-notable hill in Bosnia. --Gene_poole 22:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting perspective, but not relevant to what I was asking. Even if the article was rewritten, it would still about the claims of there being a pyramid. --Ronz 23:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * That would be my reading of WP:WEIGHT. At the moment the article seems to bend over backwards to treat the pyramids seriously. Artw 23:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. I think it's because early on the only information we had was from the foundation, whose viewpoints were being given considerable support by the media due to the foundation's pr campaign. --Ronz 00:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In its present form the article comprehensively debunks the "pyramid" claims. It's completely awash with referenced statements showing those claims to be utter nonsense. Where, exactly, does it "bend over backwards to treat the pyramids seriously"? --Gene_poole 00:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Now we're back to my questions and WP:WEIGHT. The article gives a great deal of weight to the foundation and early news reports based upon foundation press releases.  If we agree that the majority viewpoint or scientific consensus are that there are no pyramids, then we've given undue weight to the foundation and these early reports. --Ronz 01:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The ONLY people saying there is a pyramid in Bosnia are Osmanagic and his foundation. We cannot possibly discuss the subject without including their claims or discussing news reports about those claims. Those claims are the only reason the vast majority of people have ever heard about the "Bosnian Pyramids". Simply expostulating the claims does not give them undue weight, as their presence is absolutely fundamental to understanding the subject of the article. --Gene_poole 02:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think I'm getting through. I'm saying the article should give less weight to the foundation's reports and viewpoint.  For example, see the Chronicle reference I added above:  (looks like it's still available in cache form).
 * For example, I think the "Research program" section should be reduced to what we can find discussed in reliable sources independent of the foundation. My reasoning is twofold: First, the weight issues mentioned above. Second, now that we have more references available, we should start relying more on secondary sources and less on primary ones. --Ronz 03:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You're getting through loud and clear. My point is that it's quite valid to quote Flat Earth Society publications or websites in an article about the Flat Earth Society. Same goes here. By all means quote supporting secondary sources to provide verification of the Foundation's claims - but there's simply no problem quoting primary ones, because that's what the article is largely about. --Gene_poole 03:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

(Undent) Sorry, but I still don't think we're communicating. You seem to be misunderstanding my perspective despite all I've done to explain it. Perhaps you should explain yours better, maybe by providing more examples?

I'm not saying it's a problem quoting primary sources.

I'm not disagreeing that the article is largely about the claims of the foundation.

I'm saying that we have many secondary sources now, and that they indicate we should change the weight we're currently giving to the claims by the foundation. --Ronz 19:08, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

What It Should Be
I still think at the end of the day, this article really should not be anything more than this:Hiberniantears 17:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

A site known as Visočica hill, in the Bosnia-Herzegovina town of Visoko, northwest of Sarajevo, became the focus of international attention in October 2005, following claims that it is actually the largest of a group an ancient man-made pyramids, the so-called Bosnian pyramids. However, scientific consensus holds that the hill is neither a pyramid, nor man-made.

The 213 metre Visočica hill, upon which the Old town of Visoki was once sited, has a generally symmetrical pyramid-like shape when viewed from certain angles. The idea that it constitutes an ancient artificial edifice was publicised by Houston-based expatriate Bosnian author and metalworker Semir Osmanagić, whose subsequent excavations at the site have uncovered what he claims to be a paved entrance plateau and tunnels, as well as stone blocks and ancient mortar which he has suggested once covered the structure. Osmanagić has claimed that the dig involved an international team of archaeologists from Australia, Austria, Bosnia, Scotland and Slovenia, however many archaeologists named have stated they had not agreed to participate and were not at the site. The dig began in April 2006.

Interpretation
Semir Osmanagić's claims, widely reported in the mass media, have been challenged by a number of experts, who have accused him of promoting pseudo-scientific notions and damaging archaeological sites with his excavations. Penn State University Professor Garrett Fagan is quoted as saying "They should not be allowed to destroy genuine sites in the pursuit of these delusions[...] It’s as if someone were given permission to bulldoze Stonehenge to find secret chambers of lost ancient wisdom underneath."



Osmanagić has named Visočica hill the "Pyramid of the Sun", while two nearby hills, identified from satellite and aerial photography, have been dubbed the "Pyramid of the Moon" and the "Pyramid of the (Bosnian) Dragon" (and another two, one named the "Pyramid of the Earth", have been mentioned in reports). Newspaper reports have quoted Osmanagić as claiming that they were constructed by ancient Illyrian inhabitants of the Balkans as early as 12,000 BC. But in an interview with Philip Coppens in Nexus (April-May 2006), Osmanagić attempted to clarify his previous statements, stating he was misquoted: he does claim that they were most likely constructed by the Illyrians, who he claims lived in the area from 12,000 BC to 500 BC, and that the pyramid was therefore most likely constructed between those two dates - not in 12,000 BC. In an interview with Vesna Peric Zimonjic, appearing in the Belgian newspaper De Morgen, he refused to date the structures:

Osmanagić, who has also published under the name Sam Osmanagich, is the author of a book entitled The World of the Maya that presents a global pseudohistory involving Atlantis and Lemuria, and concludes:


 * The Maya inherited knowledge from their ancestors at Atlantis and Lemuria (Mu). Cities were planned and built around the main square toward which the pyramids and temples were turned. They communicated with the movement of the Sun and the paths of other heavenly bodies... Many cultures around the world, from India, Sumeria, Egypt, Peru, the Indians of North and Central America, the Inca and the Maya, call themselves the 'Children of the Sun' or the 'children of light.' Their ancestors, the civilizations of Atlantis and Lemuria, erected the first temples on energy potent point of the Planet. Their most important function was to serve as a gateway to other worlds and dimensions.

Osmanagić's concept is similar to that popularized by William Perry and Grafton Elliot Smith in their book The Children of the Sun (1923). Smith and Perry suggested that all ancient civilizations could trace their history to ancient Egypt. Their work represented a school of thought known as diffusionism, also represented in the scholarship of Gustaf Kossinna. However, Osmanagić adds to this a belief in the lost continents of Atlantis and Lemuria. Smith and Perry's theories of hyperdiffusionism have been rejected on the basis of subsequent research and models concerning Atlantis and Lemuria are not taken seriously by the majority of professional archaeologists and historians.

Boston University's Curtis Runnels, an expert in prehistoric Greece and the Balkans states that, "Between 27,000 and 12,000 years ago, the Balkans were locked in the last Glacial maximum, a period of very cold and dry climate with glaciers in some of the mountain ranges. The only occupants were Upper Paleolithic hunters and gatherers who left behind open-air camp sites and traces of occupation in caves. These remains consist of simple stone tools, hearths, and remains of animals and plants that were consumed for food. These people did not have the tools or skills to engage in the construction of monumental architecture."

Enver Imamovic of the University of Sarajevo, a former director of the National Museum of Sarajevo, concerned that the excavations will damage historic sites such as the medieval royal capital Visoki, said that the excavations would "irreversibly destroy a national treasure".

In a letter to the editor of The Times on 25 April 2006, Professor Anthony Harding, president of the European Association of Archaeologists, referred to Osmanagić's theories as "wacky" and "absurd" and expressed concern that insufficient safeguards were in place to protect Bosnia's "rich heritage" from "looting and unmonitored or unauthorised development".

According to one source, on May 8, 2006, members of the Geological team investigating Visočica on behalf of the Archaeological Park: Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun Foundation held a press conference in Tuzla to present the results of their research. The academics, from the Faculty of Mining and Geology at the University of Tuzla and led by Professor Dr. Sejfudin Vrabac, concluded that the hill is a natural geological formation, made of classic sediments of layered composition and varying thickness, and that its shape is a consequence of endodynamical and egsodynamical processes in post-Miocene era.

According to Professor Vrabac, who specializes in paleogeology, there are dozens of like morphological formations in the Sarajevo-Zenica mining basin alone. The Geological team report on Visocica, based on the data collected in six drill holes at 3 to 17 metre depths, is supported by the Research and Teaching Council of the Faculty of Mining and Geology, as well as the Association of Geologists of Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

In June 2006, Zahi Hawass's name became linked to the excavations as recommending an expert, Aly Abd Alla Barakat, to investigate the hills. Upon being contacted Hawass denied any involvement, accusing Osmanagić of "giving out false information".

The Archaeological Park: Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun Foundation has said that Barakat inspected the hills and stated, "My opinion is that this is a type of pyramid, probably a primitive pyramid." So far no report has appeared from the foundation confirming this. Osmanagić also invited geologist and alternative archaeologist Robert Schoch to visit the site. In a preliminary report he concluded that there were natural geological explanations for all the features claimed to be artificial by Osmanagić. In the case of the tunnels he further added:"The much-touted “ancient inscriptions” seem not to be ancient at all. I was told by a reliable source that the inscriptions were not there when members of the “pyramid team” initially entered the tunnels less than two years ago. The “ancient inscriptions” had been added since, perhaps non-maliciously, or perhaps as a downright hoax."The foundation has described such comments as "ill-intentioned" referring to "irrelevant and completely incorrect facts". In return Dr Schoch's website documents "extreme damage being done by the way the excavations are being performed," and accuses Osmanagić of launching "a deliberate smear campaign."

Intro
Currently: "became the focus of international attention in October 2005, following claims that it is actually the largest of a group an ancient man-made pyramids, the so-called Bosnian pyramids."

I think this inappropriately promotes the pov of the foundation, and the word "claims" is too much a weasel word in this context.

Proposal: "became the focus of international attention in October 2005, following a news-media campaign promoting the idea that it is actually the largest of a group an ancient man-made pyramids, the so-called Bosnian pyramids."

If necessary, we can source this with "The Great Pyramids of ... Bosnia?" by Colin Woodard. The Chronicle of Higher Education, March 30, 2007. .

Thoughts? --Ronz 17:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Currently: "The idea that it constitutes an ancient artificial edifice was publicised by Houston-based expatriate Bosnian author and metalworker Semir Osmanagić, whose subsequent excavations at the site have uncovered what he claims to be a paved entrance plateau and tunnels, as well as stone blocks and ancient mortar which he has suggested once covered the structure. Osmanagić has claimed that the dig involved an international team of archaeologists from Australia, Austria, Bosnia, Scotland and Slovenia,[1] however many archaeologists named have stated they had not agreed to participate and were not at the site.[2] The dig began in April 2006."

Per WP:LEAD I think we need to summarize the main points of the article more. This currently highlights the early claims and controversies. It should also include and emphasize the consensus viewpoint that there are no pyramids.

How about replacing the introduction of Osmanagić with that from The Chronicle, "a Bosnian-American metal-shop owner in Houston and self-described 'alternative historian?'"

This is probably a good point to introduce the foundation as well. --Ronz 17:32, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. In general terms I think the article needs to give much more attention to the way in which the "pyramid" story was propagated by the international (mostly print) media. I think it was first reported by AAP, and snowballed after being picked up by dozens of papers from there. It's an interesting illustration of how the media can erroneously define perceptions. --Gene_poole 23:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The Foundation's history and plans
I think there should be a section specifically about the foundation and it's activities. This would give us a location to place the discussion about the so-called "international team of archeologists" which is not in the introduction/lead. The "Research program" section should be moved into it as well. It should also include mention how "pyramid"-related tourism appears to be why they're getting away with this hoax. As long as we write the section mainly from reliable, secondary sources, we should be able to treat these and other controversial issues fairly. --Ronz 01:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Think about it
Just think about folks.. how do you explain all these constructions and artifacts.. these are photos taken at the sites. Its not smart to blindly reject things just because it doesn't fit into the framework of what we think we know.

Please do take a look at the photos taken at the excavation sites and think about it - but not starting with assumption that the framework presented to us by the textbooks is absolutely correct and that anything that doesn't fit into it must be rejected.

And also do notice that many of the attacks made on the people working on the project are emotionally charged. They don't even scientifically address or give explanations for all the artifacts found. If someone were to start digging up a mud hill i wouldn't get so emotionally upset if I were an archaeologist....

Dilip rajeev 12:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Dilip rajeev 12:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This is an encyclopedia, not a venue for your soapboxing. --Ronz 15:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * And more, before claiming anything, open some books about geology and archeology, not only pulp magazins about Lemuria.Kromsson 21:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

With regard to the above post by Kromsson, i find that it is a "personal attack" and does not provide any relevant or useful information to this discussion. I am surprised to find that this comment is still displayed considering the "nature" of discussions concerning Wikipedia's "rules and regulations". For all those desiring to follow the "letter of the law", please do what i consider to be right and remove this post. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Merlyndraconius (talk • contribs) 06:45, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Omerbashich's theories
I removed the following, plus and additional link to the blog. It doesn't meet WP:RS because it's self-published (doesn't meet WP:EL for that matter because it's a personal blog). Even if Omerbashich's theories are published in a manner that meets WP:RS, there's still the issue of needing further references for us to present it properly per WP:NPOV: "In August 2007, a Bosnian geophysicist and geodesist Dr. Mensur Omerbashich assembled together a series of facts and indications that seem to point at a logical explanation. According to Dr. Omerbashich, Visočica is a natural hill shaped for military purposes. This was done regularly during the Roman and other eras, probably up until the fall of medieval Bosnia under Ottoman Turkey, in fifteenth century. He offers explanations for important aspects of the Visočica story, so for instance the tunnels found under the hills could simply be remnants from an ancient military tactics of sapping. He also warned about child labor used at the site." --Ronz 18:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC) Hi, I contacted you on both mine and yours talk pages, however there was no response. Below is my correspondence with another admin who couldn't see why this post should be treated as spam (as you claimed it was). Therefore (for lack of response from you mostly) I re-posted the same text. Thanks. Piramidosta 22:48, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

-- Your explanation is vague. Many links that are on the Bosnian Pyramids page lead to personal pages, be it a blog or a web page, see Dr. Schoch's page for instance. Can you show (practically) how is it that the text I placed on Dr. Omerbashich's theory is inappropriate, while the link to Dr. Schoch's personal web site is? Next, how can what I posted be considered spam? There is this guy's blog, I found all the information there, he isn't hiding anything (I think), and you are telling me that his scientific views not only aren't good enough as those of another scientist (an American, is that it?) but they are also spam? That doesn't make sense. Piramidosta 19:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the main concern here is that the source you added is hosted on blogspot.com. Like a wiki, blogs can be edited by almost anyone, and so aren't usually considered reliable sources. I'm not exactly sure how your contributions are spam, but you might want to ask Ronz about that on his talk page, where he's sure to notice your question. But if you can find another, more reliable, source that backs up Dr. Omerbashich's theories, then you're more than welcome to add them. Happy editing! Hersfold (t/a/c) 19:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, I thought Ronz would respond here too. But I will message him on his talk page. Concerning the above comments you made, I can only say that a blog of a self-identified person is as reliable as a web site of a person who self-identifies himeslf/herself. There are servers that offer web sites for free too, so I don't get your point. Your "spam"-related comment seems like an understatement. Piramidosta 20:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC) --
 * Sorry for the delay in responding. Summarizing my response on my talk page: Schoch is a recognized authority and his involvement in the investigations has been widely publicized.  I made no spam accusations.
 * As for external links in general, see WP:EL and the discussion above: Talk:Bosnian pyramids.
 * You've restored your edits without addressing my concerns, which are at least in part shared by Hersfold, that the source is not reliable. Additionally, we need another source that cites Omerbashich to show that his theories are important enough to be presented here and that we do so in an appropriated neutral way.  See also the discussions above: Talk:Bosnian pyramids.
 * Per WP:RS and WP:NPOV, your edits should be removed. I realize you're new to all this, so I'm happy to explain further. --Ronz 23:36, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Here's my summary from the talk page too. Thanks for the response, sorry I missed it. I agree that information in many blogs is suspicious at best, but that can probably be attributed to the anonymity, would you agree? On the other hand, I think Dr. Omerbashich's blog is well put together (I’m not getting into its contents issues) so I think you should give him credit for obviously doing his best to elucidate this issue for all of us. I think too that Dr. Schoch is a credible eyewitness who came all the way from Boston to offer his expert opinion. But you sure agree that Dr. Omerbashich who is in Sarajevo (look at the map -- it's very close to Visocica too!) has additional valuable angles of looking at the whole story. I did check out the rules, and I can say that there are many and they are well written, so I can see why wikipedia is so respected – in case you didn't notice: Dr. Omerbashich’s blog uses wikipedia links extensively too! OK now, what "another source" are we talking here? Who is supposed to say if Dr. Omerbashich (or Dr. Schoch) is right or wrong? I thought these guys deserved equal treatment because they are authorities on the subject -- both have "Dr" in front of their names. That's enough for me, but I am sorry if this is against regulations. Hope you can help me further. Which brings me to the last question: what edits exactly are you saying I should remove? Cheers, Piramidosta 00:46, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Omerbashich’s blog is not a reliable source. See Wp:rs --Ronz 03:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "Who is supposed to say if Dr. Omerbashich (or Dr. Schoch) is right or wrong? I thought these guys deserved equal treatment because they are authorities on the subject" No, they don't deserve equal treatment. We have third party sources like The Chronicle of Higher Education saying, "Outside experts strongly disagree. Robert M. Schoch, an associate professor of natural science at Boston University who earned a doctorate in geology at Yale University, is in that camp."  It is the existance of sources like these that allow us to say Schoch's views are worth presenting here.  It's the total and complete absense of such sources that gives us no choice but to keep Omerbashich's theories out.
 * As I said before, for us to include Omerbashich's theories, they need to be published in a source that meets WP:RS and an additional third-party source needs to be published that demonstrates Omerbashich's theories are important enough that they are worth addressing. --Ronz 03:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks and sorry for my delayed reply. If you look at his blog you can see that it is new. I say this in the first sentence of my post ("In August 2007..."). So I don't think that you can expect any third-party sources yet. Sure, go ahead and edit my post and the link to his blog in whichever way you think is appropriate or remove them if necessary. Piramidosta 12:30, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hello, pIramidosta, I am watcher and i say you: do not try to be right with Ronz, it is impossible, Wikipédia is ground of game's Ronz and I have never seen anybody who acquired from reason again him, it is the God here! it is just like that! (90.38.6.82 15:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC))
 * I am beginning to think that you may be right. Piramidosta 18:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

That's an interesting opinion, thanks for sharing. Anyway, I have just re-posted the text, as it seems suspicious that Ronz would remove both the text and the external link without letting me know (here or on our talk pages) of such a move. So it could be someone else who was watching our conversation and removed the post as well as the link. In any case however, I think that at least the external link should remain, providing that Ronz agrees of course. Because how else can third parties find out (and give or not their opinion) about the existence of such sources unless those sources are linked to first. Piramidosta 16:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to roll this back to Ronz's last edit, but before I do so, just wanted to offer the following thoughts. Piramidosta: I don't get the impression that Ronz is opposed to the ideas in the blog getting incorporated into this article. Rather, the ideas need to be vetted by a neutral third party. Placing a blogged theory which has not gone through the standard (or any) process of academic review in a Wikipedia article is certainly against the spirit of WP:SPAM WP:RS even if the theory may well turn out to be correct, or vetted in the near future. Ronz's point is merely that this research can not be cited as a source until it has been peer reviewed. While I sympathize with your position that placing the link in this article will get it more exposure to perhaps bring such review, that is the wrong course of action. Peer review existed, and functioned just fine prior to Wikipedia... the process does not need our help. Ronz did the correct thing in removing the text to the talk page so that it will not be lost.

As a next step, perhaps you can reach out to this scientist to inquire when his findings will be reviewed (or if they already have). This may provide you with a verifiable third-party source which you can use to place this language back in the article. Hiberniantears 16:45, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Forgive me for being confused, but how do you make an academic peer review a website or a blog? I have never heard of this before. I am aware of science magazines doing it, but I had no idea that a website could go through an academic peer review as well. If that is indeed possible, how exactly was Dr. Schoch's website peer reviewed? If you please would answer these questions, then I can ask Dr. Omerbashich when I see him whether he intends to have the same done with his blog too. Piramidosta 21:41, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * "remove them if necessary" I did. Sorry if there was any confusion. --Ronz 19:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn't object to you being the person who removes the text, I just didn't see any notice from you saying that it was you who did it. You will agree that, in a situation like that, it could be anyone [removing the text] even though you perhaps wouldn't want it removed. But, that has been straightened out now. I did however object to the deletion of the link to Dr. Omerbashich's blog in the External Links section. I still object to that because, in my opinion, Wikipedia can only benefit from including a link to Dr. Omerbashich’s blog since the information contained therein is relevant, important, well put together, scientifically sound, solid-referenced (for an Internet medium), and potentially crucial for the entire topic. I hope it won't sound impolite if I say that Law 101 teaches us that laws and regulations exist so that people who obey them could benefit and prosper; laws and regulations must not be read rigidly in situations where potential benefits for the community of breaking those regulations outweigh by far potential damages from not imposing those regulations to the letter. Piramidosta 21:41, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I have just noticed that one of you two has removed again both the text and the link before waiting to read my response (above). However, I can see now another external link that I find relevant to the above discussion: who and how did the peer review of the last external link shown (the "Irna")? Piramidosta 21:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I already pointed out the discussion: Talk:Bosnian_pyramids. --Ronz 22:41, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Here is another practical demonstration of why the above link deserves to be included in the External Links section: there, you have listed a link to an article (http://science.monstersandcritics.com/news/article_1169078.php/UNESCO_to_join_search_for_pyramids_in_central_Bosnia) announcing that UNESCO is taking part in the Visoko research. However, nothing could be farther from truth, and more than one year later UNESCO, of course, hasn’t showed up. How's that for including (un)verified reports? Or was that information too peer reviewed as well? Related to that: do you see Dr. Omerbashich's blog containing any information that is nearly as untrue? Piramidosta 22:07, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing out the monstersandcritics link. I've removed it per your comments. --Ronz 22:41, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Great, glad I could be of some help! Next, please look at your last post in the talk that you pointed at: "We're making an exception with this article because it's so difficult to get current information in English. This doesn't mean we should list every blog though. I don't see this one keeping very current, nor offering anything that the others don't. --Ronz 16:18, 15 April 2007 (UTC)" Now, if I read this correctly, you stated two criteria for making an exception: (1) information contained in the linked source has to be current, and (2) the linked source must offer something that others don't.  Based on these criteria (to not repeat myself on additional reasons pro, such as high quality and seriousness of the source I'm advocating here), it's quite obvious that, by the same token, a link to Dr. Omebashich's blog should be posted as well. Piramidosta 00:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S. I'm still wating for instructions or hints on how and where one can submit a website or blog for academic peer review, so I can suggest Dr. Omerbashich to do just that. Piramidosta 00:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Piramidosta, I would like to suggest you read through some of the following resources, as I think they will answer many of your questions. Peer review is perhaps a bit too extreme a phrase for me to have used, and it appears to have tripped you up a bit. First, read through Verifiability - This should give you a pretty good idea of why Omerbashich's blog is not ideal, as it deals with the need for third party involvement. If Omerbashich were to get his research published in a third party source, then his work would be an ideal source here. I believe you may also find Featured article criteria to be of some use, as it gives a good break down on what it takes to move an article through the process of becoming featured article quality (which is to say the article would be reliable enough to be presented on the Wikipedia main page). I add this link because this article on the Bosnian pyramids is something of a disaster... as you are noticing with some of the additional links you have pointed out. Our goal here is not to add more blogs, but rather to eliminate this type of "source" material in favor of third party published sources. For the time being, the responsibility for getting the research in your links to the level that is would warrant inclusion here as a source is in the hands of Dr. Omerbashich. Hope this helps. Hiberniantears 00:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, that sounds reasonable for a featured article (as you call it), in theory. In practice however (see my reply to Ronz, above), we can see that there are exceptions to the rule particularly when it comes to the External Links section. Since Ronz seems busy, can you please tell me why can't there be an exception for at least a link to Dr. Omerbashich's blog? It seems that both of the criteria that Ronz stated above for allowing exceptions are well met in this case too. Please note that I don't insist on including my text as a featured article any more (I agree that Dr. Omerbashich's ideas need to be verified), however I do insist on including the external link (to the blog), for all the above stated reasons. Piramidosta 12:17, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Excellent questions, and you have a reasonable point. The real issue here is not the inclusion of your link, but rather the need to clean this article up and remove the links you are pointing out as exceptions to the rule. I'm rather busy today and tomorrow, but I'd be happy to spend some time running through this article over the weekend in an attempt to bring it in line with some higher standards on sources. I know its not the perfect answer, but like I said before, this article needs a great deal of help... Hiberniantears 18:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I am glad you are taking my points seriously. It seems Ronz has lost interest in this article (which would be unfortunate), so it's good that someone is taking over. Of course, we should thank Ronz for watching the article for this long, as it probably was not the easiest Wikipedia article for one to be responsible for. Looking forward to your edits. Piramidosta 21:56, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I haven't lost interest. I just have nothing more to say about Omerbashich.  If anyone wants to work on editing the article, I'll try to set some time aside to contribute. --Ronz 22:37, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't expect you to say something just for the heck of it. Of course, I did expect you to respond to my question on the exception criteria you stated. Piramidosta 02:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems Hiberniantears didn't keep his/her promise and edited the page over the weekend. I hope this doesn't mean the things remain as they are. Piramidosta 03:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC) POSTED FROM MY PERSONAL TALK PAGE: Piramidosta 18:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC) I recommend you read WP:AGF and consider changing your comment here:. If you are unhappy with the situation, there are many productive ways to resolve them detailed in WP:DR. --Ronz 20:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * From what I can see, WP:AGF is conerned with advising you, the oldtimers here, in dealing with us, the newcomers. So I don't see why you wanted me to read it. The same seems to apply for the other document you recommended. May I remind you that it is not me who is overseeing this page, and therefore obviously, having no power whatsoever in here, I am not the person to resolve any issues either. I can only point at some, which is what I did. By the way, the criteria you used in the past for justifying the exceptions you had made with listing some "sources", are not contained in the readings you recommended. Piramidosta 03:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I suggest you reread them. AGF applies to all, though there is a section specific to newcomers.  WP:DR gives you guidelines on how to handle disputes.
 * "By the way, the criteria you used in the past for justifying the exceptions you had made with listing some "sources", are not contained in the readings you recommended." If you mean that the exceptions are not part of the policies and guidelines, then yes, I know. Did you look to see who put those links into the article and what discussions occurred concerning them?  My part with these links has been to point out the relevant policies/guidelines, as I did with you.  When we've made exceptions, I've tried to document the exceptions them for future reference. --Ronz 04:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It all boils down to the (now established) fact that there are exceptions selectively applied, despite the fact that there are no Wikipedia regulations to support such exceptions. Since you or anyone else seems unwilling to level the ground here, I conclude I have done everything I was supposed to. Consequently, I re-posted the text as well as the link to Dr. Omerbashich's blog. I also posted this correspondence on the talk page for everyone to see. Piramidosta 18:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes there are exceptions. Omerbashich's brand-new blog doesn't meet any of them. Sorry you don't like this.  --Ronz 19:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Since you suffer from amnesia, let me remind you of your own criteria as stated in the above: (1) information contained in the linked source has to be current, and (2) the linked source must offer something that others don't. Don't you realize how funny you sound when you say that Dr. Omerbashich's blog does not meet the above two criteria? One would think there is someone at Wikipedia who actually cares about Wikipedia's good name, and subsequently deals with editors like yourself and the person below who obviously misuse their privileged access to knowledge distribution in order to twist Wikipedia's regulations. Don't tell me you two are doing this to protect national interests. Piramidosta 01:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * WP:NPA. WP:TALK.  Revise your comment above, apologize, and maybe you'll get a better response. --Ronz 01:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Is that some insiders' joke? Because I do not get it, I am afraid. Another thing I do not get is your violation of Wikipedia regulations by inventing new regulations on your own that are not written anywhere. Another thing still that I do not get is how it is possible that no one with a higher authorization level than yours has reacted yet so to restrain you. Yet another thing I do not get is why has this individual below promised to bring the article in tune with Wikipedia regulation, but has not done so ten days later. Another thing (Obviously, I could go on like this for hours, but something is telling me that you are not interested in logics here, or in Wikipedia regulations, for that matter. Except, of course, for those regulations that you pick yourself selectively indeed). Piramidosta 21:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not an insider's joke. You shouldn't say that someone suffers from amnesia and misuses their privileged access, or imply that they don't care about Wikipedia's good name. These coments are uncivil and close to personal attacks. Comment on the contents, on the edits, not on the editors and their motives. As for the blog: I agree that it should not be linked per WP:EL and WP:NPOV. The two sides of the debate each get their fair (fair, not necessary equal) share of time and attention in the article, adding this blog does not help to write an encyclopedic, neutral and scientifically sound article about the subject. Fram 07:59, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Omerbashich's theories reversion
I removed the text and link once more from the article. Piramidosta, please try to respect the consensus on this. Numerous Wikipedia guidelines have been provided to you, and both Ronz and myself are working with you in good faith. For the time being, please do not add the information back to the article as per the lengthy discussion above. Hiberniantears 19:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting to see that you too (besides Ronz) have made re-appearance just in the right moment to delete the text I re-posted, while you did not keep the promise you made last week (that you would level the ground here). Oh well, the world is full of injustice. But while you are here, could you please update me and the readership on that incident of two weeks ago, when the Wikipedia owner said CIA (etc.) effectively controls Wikipedia? (News: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6947532.stm) Piramidosta 01:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That is one of the biggest miss-quotes of a story I've seen. The story never stated that the CIA has control over wikipedia nor does the tool (wikipediascanner) have the capability to detect the IP addresses of those who are editing with accounts.
 * In addition, to address the rest of this dispute, blogs are almost never permitted as a source. Blogs and other self published non-fact checked sources are often unreliable and usually including them in an article violations the "due weight" section of our neutral point of view policy.  Content needs to be published in a third part source such as a scientific journal, newspaper, etc.
 * When we talk about making exceptions to the rule the question is not "why not?" the question is "why?". To make an exception to the rule those involved in the article must reach a consensus to that effect. Thats how it always works. This isn't some kind of CIA conspiracy to keep a blog down (wtf?)... this is just how wikipedia works. Our policies are there for a good reason. ---J.S  (T/C/WRE) 23:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you always put words in people's mouth? I didn't say the article had said the CIA has control, I said "effectively" meaning: "for all practical purposes". Anyone who graduated from a high school and has read the above BBC article can conclude the same. So, you are disputing a fact, and how outrageous is that!
 * Next, what in the world does it mean "almost never"? Who is to put the limit on "almost", the admins or the Wikipedia regulations? Free and out-of-the-blue interpretations such as those you have just made, only intensify the doubts people increasingly have about the whole thing called Wikipedia.
 * Just look at your "cleanup" posteriori: it is now obvious that you people (admins) really believe it's fair to include several external links to what an American Doctor (Schoch) has to say on "pyramids" (on his private .COM site, which is better than a private blog - how?!), but to not allow an external link to what a non-American Doctor has to say? Not to mention the actual link to Osmanagich’s commercial website where he sells his book. Or did you just make up a regulation that allow Wikipedia to be used for free advertising?
 * Since you boys seem to have lost your compass, let me tell you what you now make Wikipedia look like from aside. The only effect that your biased actions (and as-you-go-invented justifications for those actions) produce is make people believe even more that: Oh yes, this indeed smells like g.o.b.'s of the CIA! Piramidosta 22:51, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Before making any response to the above, please see WP:DENY. I chose to follow it in this situation. I hope others will consider doing the same. --Ronz 03:14, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That page is sub-titled. "This is an essay. It is not a policy or guideline and editors are not bound by its advice." So stop dodging the issue. Piramidosta 17:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Omerbashich's site should not be lined. For the reasons given, but also see this commentary on his claims: http://antibarbarorum.blogspot.com/2007/08/pozdrav-gospodinu-omerbashichu.html Dougweller 19:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

And another site with a discussion with Omerbaschich: http://irna.lautre.net/Pyramids-shaped-by-Romans.html?var_recherche=Omerbashich Dougweller (talk) 10:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

EL cleanup
I continued the cleanup work started by J.smith on the external links. They should still be checked for redundancy with other links and references. --Ronz 20:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

UNESCO report
Someone has removed this twice and referred to the talk page. However I can't find a reference here. This is the paragraph removed:

However UNESCO has published a report entitled: "Bosnian Pyramids: A Pseudoarchaeological Myth and a Threat to the Existing Cultural and Historical Heritage of Bosnia-Herzegovina" which is extremely critical of Semir Osmanagić, stating that he has suppressed findings which contradict his views and the whole enterprise is being run as a money making exercise rather than a scientific investigation.

Please explain why it has been removed or I will reinsert it. --Dumbo1 15:32, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * UNESCO did not publish it. It's a letter to UNESCO. --Ronz 16:23, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Articles on the "pyramids"

 * ,

,  Dr. Hawass' letter.

Tuesday, June 27, 2006 Mr. Mark Rose Archaeology Magazine Dear Mr. Rose, In response to your question regarding the ipyramidi in Bosnia, here is my answer: The discoverer of the ipyramidi in Bosnia, Semir Osmanagic, who claims that a hill near the Bosnia River is a man-made structure built before the end of the last Ice Age, is not a specialist on pyramids.''' His previous claim that the Maya are from the Pleiades and Atlantis should be enough for any educated reader.''' This ipyramidi is actually a sloping hill near a village. This was famous in the Middle Ages as a meeting place for merchants. What was found there is really just a mass of huge stones, evidently a natural geologic formation. The stones do not match, and there is no evidence that they were put together to form a solid structure. No one can say that these stones were transported by human beings since each weighs approximately 40 tons. Apart from its general outline, this hill bears absolutely no resemblance to the Egyptian pyramids. Mr. Barakat, the Egyptian geologist working with Mr. Osmanagic, knows nothing about Egyptian pyramids. He was not sent by the SCA, and we do not support or concur with his statements. Other archaeologists, such as a specialist in Prehistory at the National Museum in Sarajevo named Zellika, have stated that Mr. Osmanagic is giving out false information. What can Mr. Osmanagic use to show the age of the ipyramid?i No archaeological materials have been found near the pyramid. Mr. Osmanicis theories are purely hallucinations on his part, with no scientific backing. Sincerely yours, Dr. Zahi Hawass Secretary General, SCA Megistias (talk) 16:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Correspondence with Dr. Aly Barakat
Dr. Aly Barakat is the Egyptian geologist who visited Bosnia in 2006. A geomorphologist named Irna has published a recent correspondence with him on her blog (which has a lot more on these alleged pyramids that really needs to be read.

Pirimidosta's requests to publicise Omerbashich's blog and ideas have been turned down, I think rightly. (And I will add that as virtually every post of primidosta I can find anywhere pushes Omerbashich I have come to the conclusion that they are the same person).

Irna's website is also a personal blog, but I think that this correspondence is valuable and relevant and so far as Dr Barakat's emails go, those would easily be accepted here. It's here: http://irna.lautre.net/A-correspondence-with-Dr-Barakat.html

I'd like to add a link to it, what do people think? Ronz said it should be discussed here first. Thanks. DougDougweller (talk) 17:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * When I tried to do this, Ronz has stopped all attempts to have this information listed. Totally unprofessional behaviour on his account. There are entries here on the talk page about how Wikipedia is preaching, and I can only agree. This entire entry is extremely biaised, and should be flagged as such. And the sole reason why it is so unprofessional, is, it seems to me, Ronz's editing of it. Dsine (talk) 06:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Irna's blog should not be used as a sole source. --Ronz (talk) 19:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The original report is available here: http://www.piramidasunca.ba/en/index.php/The-geological-and-Geo-archaeological-Observations-on-the-Bosnian-Pyramids-in-Visoko.html So I assume the original report is good enough to actually report on the findings of Dr. Barakat? It can't get more authorative than that. Dsine (talk) 15:19, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * And you know this is the original report exactly how? The Foundation site is not a reliable source for anything but its own claims. Certainly not for anything else. Early on it lied about its staff, for instance, claiming people were working for it who weren't.  And look what happened to poor Andrew Lawler's report. . Doug Weller (talk) 15:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Page move
This is not an article about Visocica Hill. It is an article about the so-called Bosnian pyramid and the controversy surrounding it. The article move is entirely inappropriate and should be reversed. --Gene_poole (talk) 11:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. There are a number (not sure how many, it keeps growing, 7 or 8 now) of 'pyramids' claimed (wrongly IMHO) by the Bosnian Pyramid Foundation, and it would be inappropriate to discuss them in an article on just one hill, not to say confusing. I don't remember any discussion about a redirect, did I miss it?--Dougweller (talk) 13:21, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree as well. The story is becoming less and less about a specific location, more and more about the hoax started and perpetuated by the Bosnian Pyramid Foundation in order to attract tourism. --Ronz (talk) 16:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If such is the case, I think the pages should be moved to Bosnian Pyramid Foundation Hoax, or Bosnian Pyramid Hoax with Bosnian Pyramids redirecting to whichever one is chosen. I think it is fine to also maintain a page for Visočica hill which includes mention of its relation to the hoax. We have moved beyond a reasonable period of time to still give weight to someone claiming there is a pyramid, when the professional scientific community has weighed in strongly in opposition to such a concept. The article is really now just about the perpetuation of a hoax, and should be named accordingly. Hiberniantears (talk) 23:32, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm concerned that Bosnian Pyramid Hoax might be seen as presenting an anti-pyramid bias. We don't really know if the whole thing was planned, or if it was just one person's whacky idea that organically evolved when lots of other people decided to publicise it. Surely it would be a better idea to stick with Bosnian Pyramid, and ensure that the article content explicitly states that there is no pyramid. I agree that there should be a separate article on Visocica Hill, exploring its role as the mediaeval Bosnian capital. --Gene_poole (talk) 23:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I see your point Gene. How about Bosnian Pyramids Hypothesis? Hiberniantears (talk) 00:00, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that works either. Has anyone described it as such in any of the sources? --Gene_poole (talk) 07:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * John Bohannon used the term in a Science Magazine article. But the Foundation considers at least some of their claims to be proved. Eg http://www.piramidasunca.ba/en/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=686&Itemid=26
 * Hypothesis is used in this web article too that I've just found:
 * http://hotcupofjoe.blogspot.com/2007_09_01_archive.html
 * But I think I'd leave it as Bosnian Pyramids and make sure the first paragraph is clear about their nonexistence. ::--Dougweller (talk) 08:37, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Anyone have the time to get it moved back? I gave it a try with no luck and don't have the time to figure out what to try next. --Ronz (talk) 21:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The move needs to be done by an admin. Anyone? --Gene_poole (talk) 00:32, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It needs to be done from Requested_moves I think. --Ronz (talk) 00:37, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I've moved it back to Bosnian pyramids (lowercase P), since the article is not about the hill, but about the hoax commonly known as the Bosnian pyramids (multiple, i.e. different hills). Fram (talk) 10:36, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

a plan to flood wikipedia with positive news about the pyramids
i think wikipedia could be interest by this letter of osmanagic : http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/395/semir2zt8.jpg " we also plan to be more active in submitting positive news on internet about the project : from press releases, to wikipedia, archeological websites, forums, etc. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.205.181.66 (talk) 17:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised they haven't done this already. I keep looking for it. I hope other people can look after the Wikipedia article because they know me, I'd rather deal with their attempts elsewhere.--Doug Weller (talk) 19:12, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This mail is Fake. Lol! User is not registered, every kid could do this. --HarisM (talk) 20:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * And how do you know it's fake? I'd expect you to say that. Real names, real email addresses, etc. There is nothing fishy about it.--Doug Weller (talk) 20:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. This is a forum for discussion on improving the article. Let's keep the discussions on topic. --Ronz (talk) 20:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * why do you think it is fake ? i have find it here : http://irna.lautre.net/A-new-expert-for-Mr-Osmanagic-s.html and the original message is here : http://izmo-ekspert.blogspot.com/2008/02/konano-unio-u-struni-tim.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.205.170.43 (talk) 20:40, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Izmo Ekspert blog... man... it's obvious you don't know Bosnian :) That is ironical and satirical blog against pyramid. Be sure to check your sources next time, that can be harmful to wikipedia project. Thanks. --HarisM (talk) 20:53, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * But you don't need to know Bosnian to know that, Irna explains it herself, and of course she does know Bosnian. Osmanagich hasn't denounced it, nor has Nanad/Hyperborean, and both of them must know about it.--Doug Weller (talk) 09:37, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Funny :) --HarisM (talk) 14:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. There's also a clear Houston link between at least 3 of the people (including Osmanagich himself) in the email.--Doug Weller (talk) 15:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Scientific investigations of the site show they ARE pyramids
"Scientific investigations of the site show there is no pyramid. Additionally, scientists have criticised the Bosnian authorities for supporting the pyramid claim saying, "This scheme is a cruel hoax on an unsuspecting public and has no place in the world of genuine science."

That is a bull... There is a strong personal animosity from the Ministry of culture BiH circle which disseminate that crap. Go to http://www.piramidasunca.ba/en/content/view/1059/117/lang,en/


 * The Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun Foundation is not a reliable source. See lengthy discussion above. --Gene_poole (talk) 20:58, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing indicating that The Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun Foundation is not a reliable source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MIvom (talk • contribs) 08:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Just letting that student put her lies on their site shows how unreliable it is. She's libelling friends of mine. Colette did no such thing. To get a bit more context about Merima, see http://irna.lautre.net/Did-you-say-interview.html

and about the 'writing' http://irna.lautre.net/In-which-the-proto-Bosnian.html What is really funny is Merima's comment about aliens, as Osmanagic has suggested that the Maya come from Atlantis and before that from the Pleiades star cluster (he claims a Mayan codex says that).Doug Weller (talk) 10:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, don't we have a conflict of interest here? You've just argued that you're not including some evidence in favour of Osmanagic Foundation's cause because someone involved in the controversy is your friend? Dsine (talk) 05:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No coi. While it's fine to discuss, we need to take care how we use any information solely from Irna's site. --Ronz (talk) 19:43, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Unexplained deletion of text
User:193.203.82.194 is deleting text from the article with no edit summary. Guidance is clear on this, "Always fill in the summary field. This is considered an important guideline. Even a short summary is better than no summary. An edit summary is even more important if you delete any text; otherwise, people may question your motives for the edit. Also, mentioning one change but not another one can be misleading to someone who finds the other one more important; add "and misc." to cover the other change(s)." Lack of an edit summary is often seen by editors as a good reason for automatic reversion -- deletion of text with no explanation even more so.--Doug Weller (talk) 17:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Science becoming "religion" and loosing any touch with pragmatic views?
Erebus74 (talk) 13:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC) I think the big error in this article, and all articles pertaining the "bosnian Pyramids" I've read lately, is to take a "True or Not" approach. I mean, until an "official" archeological team go investigate and take proof ON THE SITE, they can discuss for eons, but the only (amateur) archeologian who is working there keeps the knife from the right side! If that is an important medioeval and prehistoric archeological site, like much detractors say (saying they are ruining the site), why they don't go investigate and take a "more serious" look at it? Maybe they are not pyramids, but maybe they find important archeological pieces anyway. This discovery remember me of "Troy", and how official archeologist of the time told it was a fraud...but years later it was an important and "recognized" discovery. Sure, archeology is a serious matter etc,etc,etc. But if u DON'T DO RESEARCH ON THE PLACE, u are not a SERIOUS archeologist, but just putting up "theories" with the same seriousness of those claiming "they are Atlantideans Pyramids". I think ALL SCIENCE has to take a NEW APPROACH to PRAGMATISM, because modern science, in any field, has becomed too much like a religion, where things are "assumed" and taken to be real "because books and professors says that". That is NOT SCIENCE, that is "belief", and using "belief" to discourage other "beliefs", is called "religion war" as much as I know. Stop "assuming", and start RESEARCHING please. Articles must be given in the SAME VIEW I think: neutral and PLAIN presentation of the materials and of the "beliefs" of people, each one cited, and NOT CRITICIZED, UNLESS there is CERTAIN PROBE of something. Theories cannot be used to ostracize other theories! That's not the way knowledge works!! So what I want is to just see what has been discovered until now, and the different theories. What I don't want to see is accusations of frauds, accusations of "we have the truth" (from both sides, of course), and so on. In my view science MUSTE BE OPEN TO ALL, and wikipedia is the flag of this cultural revolution. So stop being too much "academic", and start being a true "field researcher", and present people with FACTS, and researches, with photos and data, and not only with theories. People need to make THEIR theories and hypotesys!

Where is the neutrality of this article?
I personally don't have enough evidence to draw conclusions here, but the article of a controversial issue does not lay out a neutral opinion, instead the first paragraph cites hoax. Now understandably there are credible citations for hoax, but as has been said earlier, the same was true of Troy... I want to reference this, as there are still ongoing debates. "From August 25 - 30, 2008, something unique will happen in the capital city of Sarajevo. The first ever International Scientific Conference for the Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids (ICBP) will take place at the Congress Hall of Municipality in Old Town Sarajevo.After the first three seasons of excavations of the Bosnian Pyramids the Foundation has gathered enough scientific evidence, through the efforts of scientists and professionals from around the world, to be presented at the ICBP. Leading researchers for the pyramid project believe that this compelling evidence will verify the existence of the Bosnian Pyramid."

--Loganis (talk) 01:37, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * We're presenting the overwhelming evidence that the "pyramid" is indeed a hoax. We don't have a single reliable source that even suggests that there is a pyramid.  See WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE. --Ronz (talk) 02:35, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * That's just nonsense Ronz; I made an update to this entry, using EXACTLY the same source (Irma's site), to talk about the statements of Barakat, and you just deleted it all. A complaint has been lodged with a real Wikipedia editor for your action there. It is clear you are not allowing a true representation of the argument, instead egotripping on your personal opinions - which are far from the established facts. Dsine (talk) 06:08, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Irna's site is a poor source, and should be used with extreme care, if at all. --Ronz (talk) 19:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Look, personally I am of the opinion that this is not a pyramid, however, even in all the cited counter arguments, each one states pretty clearly something along these lines, "However, many archaeologists he named have stated they had not agreed to participate and were never at the site.[6] The dig began in"

None of the "experts" have been to the site, so they can't yet have determined anything other than opinions themselves. Why not present it in a neutral light, state that main stream scientific thought is leaning towards hoax, and wait for an organization like UNESCO to finally voice an opinion. This isn't as wacky as Cydonia mars. Even if the main archaeological team is a bunch of nutters.--Loganis (talk) 19:14, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I suggest you read the references. If if you were correct that none of the experts have been to the site, the evidence is still overwhelming that there is no pyramid.  Of course, experts have been there and reported back.  --Ronz (talk) 19:56, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

A person need not visit a site to determine its authenticity. If Mr. Loganis was to look at a typical issue of "American Antiquity", "Latin American Antiquity", "Archaeological Journal", "American Journal of Archaeology", "Journal of Caribbean Archaeology", "Antiquity", "Journal of Near Eastern Studies", and many other archaeological journals, he or she would find that only a very, very, very small minority of the readers of them pass judgment on the authenticity and validity of finds reported in papers that are published in them have ever visited the sites discussed in the papers. It is standard procedure in archaeology to make judgments on the validity of a discovery without ever visiting a site on it was allegedly made. It is logistically, financially, and temporally impossible for anyone to visit every site, for which some claim is made about. It is the responsibility of the proponents of the so-called "Bosnian pyramid" to prove their claims by publishing papers in peer-reviewed journal papers that contain sufficient data, evidence, logical arguments, diagrams, pictures to prove their point. The complaints about experts not having visited the site only show how little the people, who make them, understand how archaeology is is practiced in the real world.

Given the endless pictures of what are quite obviously naturally jointed bedrock, Liesegang Rings, and other natural formations, which have been touted as manmade features on web pages, I can understand why experts have dismissed such claims and concluded that it was not worth visiting Visočica hill. Some discussion of this can be found at:


 * Irna, 2006, All that nature can never do, part IV : stone spheres
 * Irna, 2007a, All that nature can never do, part II : pavements and tiled floors
 * Irna, 2007b, Tout ce que la nature ne peut pas faire VI : Liesegang Rings
 * Irna, 2008, Tout ce que la nature ne peut pas faire VII Paul H. (talk) 21:07, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The "Scientific investigations" are actually not scientific investigations and just further speculation and no proof that these aren't pyramids.


 * This didn't look like a pyramid either before it was excavated; http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/laventa/bachichen.html Brotherboer (talk) 22:36, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Relevance?
Boston University's Curtis Runnels, an expert in prehistoric Greece and the Balkans states that, "Between 27,000 and 12,000 years ago, the Balkans were locked in the last Glacial maximum, a period of very cold and dry climate with glaciers in some of the mountain ranges. The only occupants were Upper Paleolithic hunters and gatherers who left behind open-air camp sites and traces of occupation in caves. These remains consist of simple stone tools, hearths, and remains of animals and plants that were consumed for food. These people did not have the tools or skills to engage in the construction of monumental architecture."

This comment has no direct relevance to the issue. No-one is claiming - as is shown elsewhere in the entry - that these structures are 27,000 or 12,000 years old. Dsine (talk) 06:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * We have multiple, independent, reliable sources showing otherwise. --Ronz (talk) 18:56, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Right, list some references for your statement here, please. Merely claiming there are "many" somewhere isn't professional. I can find many "multiple, independent, reliable sources" that show such dates aren't being claimed. You are the one making the claim, so you've got to put up the evidence backing your claim. Full stop. Dsine (talk) 06:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If you don't like the references, then we still have an expert opinion. --Ronz (talk) 19:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism of contributions
Clovis has tried to remove certain key, and founded, changes made to this article, including changes re the outcome of the first ICBP, related to the Bosnian Pyramids. I would assume that the Wikipedia editors do not let this person continue in his vandalism, and will take appropriat action to monitor his behaviour. Dsine (talk) 19:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I've reverted Dsine's edit as original research, improper systhesis of information, use of sources that are not reliable, and giving improper weight to minority viewpoints.  In addition, it violates WP:FRINGE. --Ronz (talk) 19:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I used PRECISELY the same sources as are already available on this entry, namely Irna's site, with the discussion on Barakat. So if you claim her page is a "minority view" (which it actually is, but there you go), then we should remove ALL references to this page, and that means removing that entire section. You can't have it both ways, Ronz. Dsine (talk) 06:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If Irna is the best source we have for Barakat, then all mention of Barakat should be removed. --Ronz (talk) 19:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Recent news

 * Archaeologists find medieval artefacts on Mt. Visocica, disparage pyramid seeker, 19 Sep 2008, Southeast European Times.


 * Excavations for Bosnian Valley of Pyramids continue despite ridicule, 9 Oct 2008, Southeast European Times.

--Ronz (talk) 19:26, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Stone balls
I'm copying the stone ball discussion that was recently removed. I think with a little work we can come to consensus on it's inclusion: --Ronz (talk) 22:54, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Last version before it was removed for discussion:
Mr. Osmanagić and his colleagues have hypothesized that meter-scale stone balls found near Mecevici, Ozimici, and Zavidovici in Bosnia-Herzegovina are manmade spheres composed of granite. Examination of hand specimens and petrographic thin sections of samples from the meter-scale stone balls found near Zavidovici, Bosnia-Herzegovina found that they consist of fine-grained sandstone, commonly called greywacke, that is tightly cemented by calcite. The local bedrock consists of virtually identical greywacke that typically lacks the degree of calcite cementation found in the stone balls. Petrogrphic analysis of the greywacke, composing the stone balls, found the calcite cement, including poikilotopic calcite spar that are typically found in natural concretions, to be natural in origin. Characteristics of the Zavidovici stone balls, i.e. degree and type of calcite cementation, subspherical to spherical shape, and some being embedded in local bedrock, are typical characteristics of meter-scale natural “cannonball" concretions like those found in Egypt, Kansas, New Zealand, the southwestern United States, and many other parts of the world.   Thus, it was concluded that the Zavidovici stone balls are natural cannonball concretions. Other smaller decimeter-scale stone balls might be either stone round shot (cannonballs) or spherical stone shot for trebuchets made from either granite or other materials.

Refs
}

Discussion
The balls have little or nothing to do with Visočica hill. Can we find a good secondary source stating how the foundation has been using these balls as evidence?

Can someone who has access to the Science describe it since it's only two pages? --Ronz (talk) 22:54, 13 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Try Letters: Pseudoscience in Bosnia for the PDF file.Paul H. (talk) 02:04, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

A secondary source for how the foundation has been using these stone balls as evidence is "Rolling Stones" by Philip Coppens. In terms of the Zavidovici stone balls, Mr. Coppens states:

"Many of the stone spheres in Bosnia are made from the mineral grandiorite. At Teocak, in north-eastern Bosnia, there are eight stones made from granite. Whereas some might doubt the artificiality of the stones of Zavidovici, these granite balls have to be manmade, as nature does not produce such shapes in granite. And, as such, it is clear that the spheres of Zavidovici are equally more than likely manmade, an opinion the Egyptian geologist Dr. Aly Barakat has also arrived at."

It sounds like a serious case of both Coppens and Barakat "taking everything for granite" to use a favorite pun of geologists. Paul H. (talk) 02:23, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the quick reply!
 * I'm not sure if we can use the material without violating WP:OR - probably WP:NPOV and WP:V as well.
 * Because the Science article is only a letter, can we use it? I don't think it meets WP:RS, and without it, I don't think we can include the rest per WP:OR.
 * Coppens material is clearly WP:SELFPUB, so can't be used.
 * I should have been clearer what I was asking. We need a reliable, secondary source that mentions the balls in relation to the foundation, the "pyramids", or both.  Otherwise, any discussion of the balls is going to appear off-topic.  Even then, I don't think we can get around the original research problem. --Ronz (talk) 02:43, 14 October 2008 (UTC)