Talk:Bossa nova/Archives/2018

Jazz vs Debussy

 * "In the sphere of what could be called more popular arts, bossa nova mixed Debussy, Cole Porter, and traditional samba to send the 'Girl from Ipanema' swinging around the world."
 * Hallam, Elizabeth ed. (2000). "Rephrasing identity in Brazil", by Reynaud, Ana in Cultural Encounters: Representing Otherness. Routledge. ISBN 0415202795.
 * "It is often claimed that Jobim was inspired by cool jazz and bebop. Not true; he actually preferred the Glenn Miller Orchestra to the experimentations of Charlie Parker. According to Jobim himself, his major influences were Debussy, Villa-Lobos, Stravinsky, Chopin - and samba."
 * Draffen, Andrew (2001). Lonely Planet Rio De Janeiro, p. 130. Lonely Planet Publications. ISBN 1864503068.
 * "One of the musicians he [Claudio] listened to, as did Jobim and Gilberto, was Gerry Mulligan. In 1959, Claudio said, the Brazilian label called Musidisc was issuign the Pacific Jazz records in Brazil.
 * 'Everybody was into West Coast jazz then,' he said. 'These records were issued by Musidisc there. Any other stuff would be imported and harder to find. That's why West Coast jazz influenced the bossa nova people that much. I am quite sure that Chet Baker was an influence. The arrangments of the period all sound as if they were influenced by Bud Shank or Gerry Mulligan or those cats. And mainly Mulligan.' Virtually every musician involved in the bossa nova movement attests to this North American influence.
 * Jobim, however, late in his life, tended to minimize the American influence. He told an interviewer that Debussy and Villa-Lobos were very strong influences on him. He continued: 'As for jazz, real jazz, I never had much access. What we listened to here were those big bands. Real jazz here was something for collectors, for rich playboy types....'
 * 'I'm not much of a connoisseur of jazz.' Maybe. But he liked working with American jazzmen such as Ron Carter and Urbie Green. 'Later on, I saw that purists here were saying that bossa nova was a copy of American jazz. When these people would say bossa nova's harmony was based on jazz, I thought it was funny because this same harmony already existed in Debussy. No way is it American. To say a ninth chord is an American invention is absurd. These altered eleventh and thirteenth chords, with all these added notes, you can't say they're an American invention. This kind of this is as much South American as it is North Ameridcan. Americans took to bossa nova because they thought it was interesting. If it was a mere copy of jazz, they wouldn't be interested. They're tired of copies of jazz. There's Swedish jazz, French jazz, German jazz--Germans are full of jazz.'...
 * ...He was right, of course, that this kind of harmony was not an American invention. But what he told that interviewer is at variance with what he told me in earlier years, particulary about the influence of Mulligan. A simple example: Roberto Menescal's charming "O Barquinho" is based on the chord changes of Ralph Burns' "Early Autumn". And the chart on it in the JoAo Gilberto record, which I have always assumed Jobim wrote, sounds like the Stan Kenton band.
 * And Dori Caymmi (guitarist, arranger, composer, and son of Dorival Caymmi), said: 'Shorty Rogers for me was the inventor of bossa nova because he played the way JoAo and Tom played.'...
 * ...One is forced to reflect that JoAo Gilberto's soft vibratoless singing may have been influenced by that of Chet Baker. It was also influenced--and he told me this long ago--by the French singer from Martinique, Henri Salvador, as well as some earlier Brazilian singers. And so in the longer genealogy, one is forced to conclude that Gil Evans and Claude Thornhill were among the important influences on bossa nova, because of their influence on Mulligan.
 * ...Jobim met Gil Evans just once. Gil's widow, Anita, recalled the encounter. 'Gil and I,' Anita said, 'were at a party at the apartment of a painter we knew. Jobim was there. When he saw Gil, he got down on his knees and walked across the room on his knees and kissed Gil's feet.'
 * 'Gil was blown away.'"
 * Lees, Gene (1999). Singers and the Song II, p.229-30. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0195122089.
 * Anyone listening to the Chet Baker recordings (especially the vocals) can hear a remarkable similarity to the style of Astrud Gilberto! Can someon please explore this possibility or bring to light any research?  thanks--Tednor 09:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Bossa nova = samba + Debussy?

 * The anonymous user's assertion (in jazz and Latin jazz) that "bossa nova = samba + Debussy" is absurd. The "Debussy and Ravel vs. Chet Baker and Gerry Mulligan" bossa nova debate has simmered for years, but it should be clear that bossa nova's debt to the French romantic impressionist composers is strictly through Jobim, because he was classically trained in the piano. But he was basically the only one with that background, and people tend mention the Debussy reference just to give bossa a pedigree.
 * Granted, the influence is legitimate, and those familiar 7(13)-7(b13)-m7 progressions can be clearly heard in the classical stuff. But Joao Gilberto, Carlos Lyra, and Roberto Menescal weren't into Debussy, they dug Barney Kessel. Even pianists Sergio Mendes, Johnny Alf, and Joao Donato dug Stan Kenton. And everyone liked Sinatra. -- Paul Richter 03:25, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * That information, as well as, or through, the quotes above, would be great in the article as it settles any dispute regarding the equation in my opinion. Hyacinth 04:19, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

See also "The Diminished Seventh Chord as Prolongational Agent in Bach, Chopin and Jobim" (Norman Carey, Eastman School of Music). For an in-depth and well researched analysis of bossa nova, choro and links between France/French composers and Brazil/Brazilian composers see writings of Daniella Thompson (e.g., http://www.joaogilberto.org/daniella.htm and http://daniellathompson.com/). The influence, direct or indirect (as a conduit), of Villa-Lobos on bossa nova should not be underestimated. With respect to Debussy: "Tom Jobim’s “Chovendo na Roseira” was influenced by Claude Debussy (it quotes his famous Rêverie and La plus que lente) to such an extent that its original title before it had acquired lyrics was “Children’s Games,” in honor of the French composer’s Children’s Corner." (see daniellathompson.com). Gasparotti mauro (Above comment written 03:42, 15 March 2006 by 66.236.28.6)


 * Jobim's song Surfboard, from his Wonderful World record, obviously borrows from the third movement of Ravel's String Quartet, and Debussy's Sirens. Also, in the above comment I find it strange saying 'it should be clear that bossa nova's debt to the French impressionist composers is strictly through Jobim', when if bossa nova has a jazz element, and since jazz has a large debt to Debussy, Ravel etc the 'debt isn't strictly through' Jobim. Also, I have a huge Debussy influence, also I had classical piano training, but the two aren't connected much, came from different times in my life. People listen to music apart from what they're officially trained in, why assume or talk as if they don't? 110.20.157.59 (talk) 05:02, 10 May 2018 (UTC)