Talk:Boundless Oceans, Vast Skies

Requested move 11 November 2014

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: move the article to Boundless Oceans, Vast Skies, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 20:04, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Hoi Fut Tin Hung → Under a Vast Sky – per WP:USEENGLISH. "Hoi Fut Tin Hung" is a Cantonese pinyin approximation of the Chinese name, but there are no English-language sources at all that refer to it by the name. The article began life in that namespace, but was recently moved. Two English alternatives exist: "Boundless Oceans, Vast Skies" and "Under a Vast Sky". The former is a literal word-for-word translation, and the latter, which I much prefer, is a more elegant translation of the overall meaning of the idiom as applied to the song.  Ohc  ¡digame! 07:04, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.


 * I prefer a move to "Boundless Oceans, Vast Skies" since I believe the original idiom 海闊天空 and the song does not imply anything about being "under" anything. Instead, the idiom implies "a free world". In any case, I support a move away from the current title since WP:RS rarely use the Cantonese transliteration to refer to the song. _dk (talk) 07:27, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Sorry, _dk, but I found another alternative title, "Ocean Wide Sky High". This and "Boundless Oceans, Vast Skies" are literal translations. Bing Translator and Google Translator translate it as "A Brighter Future", which seems... a better translation, but not exactly accurate. Either title is not that common. I tried finding older sources that use "Boundless Oceans, Vast Skies" and "Under the Vast Sky", but came up empty-handed. Recent articles of this year can't be the only sources. I'll find more alternative titles soon. --George Ho (talk) 07:37, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The real point being is that the Cantonese phoneticised name is practically never been used. It's rather unhelpful of you to be digging around for other names to muddy the issue of the page move. Anything that doesn't have an official title is bound to have variants created by people translating on their own. Accuracy isn't the benchmark for WP:USEENGLISH, but the existence of reliable sources (in the case in English) is the determinant. The song was little known to the outside of listeners of Cantopop until the recent protests, and I'm inclined to say recent sources are as good as anything. --  Ohc  ¡digame! 08:36, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I found out the song was played in China's Got Talent in 2010. I wonder if English readers became familiar with the song when it was performed there. --George Ho (talk) 09:44, 12 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I oppose "Under a Vast Sky" because... it's not as accurate as other English titles. However, I'm neutral on "Boundless Oceans, Vast Skies" because the 2009 article used it, indicating older reliable sources use it, but won't persuade me into supporting the title yet. --George Ho (talk) 02:48, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * As I said before, [absolute literal word-for-word] accuracy really doesn't come into it. Our policy states that it all rests on what reliable sources call it. And as it seems to be a case of divided use, the tie-breaker ought to be what the article creator named it. --  Ohc  ¡digame! 02:05, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
 * If it's not just the accuracy, then it's also the usage of the proposed title. Older sources that refer to the song have never used "Under a Vast Sky" or "Under the Vast Sky". We can't move back to the proposed title just because many of this year's sources, whose authors have not been familiar with the song, commonly used it now. We must consider the weight and the reliability of sources that use any English title of the song. Perhaps I found that older titles carry more weight, like "Clear Skies, Vast Oceans" and "Boundless Oceans, Vast Skies", than "Under a Vast Sky". --George Ho (talk) 10:22, 14 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Support any move from the current title not a more common option per nom and User:Underbar dk. —  AjaxSmack   03:17, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The song has been known to Asians, not Westerners. Until the protests, translating the song's title hadn't been easy. Despite using more common English names, I don't think the authors themselves have listened to the song. They might have randomly copied-and-pasted either title to make either commonly used. They are lucky to work with reputable publishers, but shall we consider authors themselves reliable? --George Ho (talk) 08:00, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:


 * I found another title, "Vast Seas, Clear Skies". --George Ho (talk) 07:59, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * What about WP:DIVIDEDUSE? One group of English newspapers call it "Under the Vast Sky". Another group of English newspapers call it "Boundless Oceans, Vast Skies". From that guideline: "When in doubt, search results should also be evaluated with more weighting given to verifiable reliable sources than to less reliable sources (such as comments in forums, mailing lists and the like). Do consult reliable works of general reference in English," and this, "When there is evenly divided usage and other guidelines do not apply, leave the article name at the latest stable version. If it is unclear whether an article's name has been stable, defer to the name used by the first major contributor after the article ceased to be a stub." Speaking of stub, the article wasn't a stub when it was created. --George Ho (talk) 09:05, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Using Bing: 72 results for "Under a Vast Sky" Beyond (I included "Beyond" because the result was 2,000+ without it) and 79 for "boundless oceans" "vast skies". Alternatively, search "under a vast sky" song, so you'll get 69 results. Get it? 69! --George Ho (talk) 09:20, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * 69, and not 689? shome mishtake shurely... ;) --  Ohc  ¡digame! 02:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
 * 24 results for Hoi Fut Tin Hung. --George Ho (talk) 02:22, 16 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.