Talk:Bourbons of India

'Bourbons of India'
Is there any way this isn't rubbish (though from the newspapers rather than from wikipedia editors)? Descendants of an unspecified 'Jean de Bourbon', a 'nephew of Henry IV' (Henry IV of France had no nephews)? Mysteriously never mentioned until now by some crackpot cousin of Prince Philip? Supposedly the 'true heirs to the French throne' (no. Just no. There's no way any nephew of Henry IV of France could be 'true heir' without writing off Louis XIII and his line of descent, which no sane historian does)? And garbage about them being relatives of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette (if they are descendants of Charles, Duke of Vendome, then they would be related, but very distantly, especially if isolated in India). Could someone please clarify if there is any serious merit to this nonsense? Michael Sanders 00:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I have known about the claim of the family before the book "Le Rajah Bourbon". It is an old noble family of Bhopal.--Malaiya 00:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * And what's the reputation of the author. Is he considered an expert (or even competent) historian, or is he viewed in the same manner as those of Holy Blood and the Holy Grail? Michael Sanders 00:49, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Please also see


 * http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1998-02/0886979312
 * http://genealogy.euweb.cz/capet/capet37.html
 * http://genroy.free.fr/bourbon.html

--Malaiya 02:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd point out that those don't appear to explain their assertions. Moreover, I'd automatically distrust any website, or unsourced piece of work, claiming that Charles de Bourbon did not die in the 1527 Siege of Rome. Michael Sanders 02:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact that a Frenchman called Jean Philippe de Bourbon turned up at a Moghol Khan's court in the 16th century, was given a position, then produced a lineage of Bourbons advisers to the Bhopal Begums, seems well documented. The big mystery is about his identity : no known Bourbon has been reported lost at this period. Louis Rousselet in the 19th centiry proposed that he was a secret child of the Constable de Bourbon. Michel de Grèce seems to favour this opinion, but the evidence is paltry. Others have proposed that he could be a member of the ancient but illegitimate branch of Bourbon-Busset, reported lost at see in 1580. Because of the time of his arrival in India, he cannot be a nephew of Henri IV of France, born in 1553 and the eldest surviving child of his parents, neither could he be a Bourbon Navarre (descendants of Jeanne d'Albret) as stated in the introduction. Miuki 19:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

If jean Phillipe de Bourbon was the secret son of theConstable of France and his wife, Duchess Suzanne and there are historical reasons to have kept the birth a secret, he was not a nephew of Henri IV but a second uncle and he would have been King of France. WHo ever he was, the saga of this family is extraordinary and there is no doubt that the Bourbons of India achieved the unnimaginable during many centuries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thubten Namdrol (talk • contribs) 21:40, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * A nephew of Henri IV would not have been the senior Bourbon. Henri IV had no brothers who survived infancy. I suppose Henri IV's sister Catherine might have had a secret illegitimate son (she didn't marry until she 40), but such a child would not have been a Bourbon at all, much less the senior line. Even if Henri IV had had a younger brother, descendants of that brother would be junior to all the recognized living Bourbons. If, on the other hand, this Jean-Philippe was a secret legitimate son of the Constable of Bourbon, his descendants would be senior to Henri IV and his descendants, since the Constable represented the senior line of the Bourbons, and Henri was from the junior, Bourbon-Vendôme, line. But why would the Constable have a secret son by Suzanne? Suzanne died in 1521, two years prior to Bourbon's treason. Furthermore, the lack of a legitimate heir was what inspired Louise of Savoy to seize the Bourbon lands and brought about the Constable's treason. If Charles had had a legitimate son, there would have been no grounds for Louise to seize the lands, and no cause for his treason. Neither version seems to add up very well. john k (talk) 16:05, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

More sources
There's an excellent source on this, van Kerrebrouck 1987, that this article is in dire need of. It explains who Salvadore de Bourbon (1917–1978) was and provides some missing context to the whole thing. Uncle G (talk) 00:40, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Malcolm1824 as further reading
It's Seth1937 himself that says to look at page 341 of Malcolm1824. Uncle G (talk) 14:46, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Proposed merge with House of Bourbon-Bhopal
the same subject Yopie (talk) 14:59, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

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Mention in Mughal Recods
"Mughal records pre-dating the book say that Maria and Juliana were honoured ladies of the harem. Juliana was in charge of the Seragilo as harem physician while Maria occupied the position of Akbar’s confidante and companion. Juliana’s was married off by Akbar to the fugitive French prince, Jean Philippe de Bourbon and both died in Agra, leaving behind the Indian branch of Bourbons. In the old Agra cemetery is the grave of Juliana’s so-called niece, Bibi Ammiana while that of Maria (no longer traceable) was in the graveyard behind Akbar’s Church, a mile or so away. Imagine a Portuguese lady giving birth to the Great Moghul’s heir apparent at the wilderness abode of Sheikh Salim Chisti! Sounds implausible."

Source: New twist to a timeless riddle, 17 April 2017, The Hindu



"Bibi Juliana also known as Jodha Bai, was associated with the court of Aurangzeb in the 17th (not 16th Century as mentioned in the book) and the first decade of the 18th Century. Her namesake Juliana (Sr) was attached to the 16th Century court of Akbar, along with her sister, Maria, both Portuguese ladies rescued from pirates and sent to Agra from Hoogly. This Juliana was married to Jeane Philippe de Bourbon, cousin of King Henry IV of France who had escaped to Akbar’s court after killing a kinsman in a duel. Both he and Juliana are the ancestors of the Bourbon family of India, whose last descendant now lives in Bhopal."

Source:

Down the memory lane: Delhi’s last supper, 5 April 2015, The Hindu

mrigthrishna (talk) 06:24, 11 August 2017 (UTC)