Talk:Bouvier des Flandres

Father Tim's Dog
Not knowing how nor having an inclination to add data to the main page, I would like to suggest an edit to this article. Two series of books by author Jan Karon feature prominently a Bouvier/Wolfhound mix that has caused a renewed interest in the breed. Would it be inappropriate to mention this in the article? An internet search of "father tim's dog" or "the dog barnabas" will tell you more than you need to know - but Barnabas is the reason I am trying to buy a Bouvier today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.10.205.57 (talk) 16:17, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

POV tag
This concerns POV tag cleanup. Whenever an POV tag is placed, it is necessary to also post a message in the discussion section stating clearly why it is thought the article does not comply with POV guidelines, and suggestions for how to improve it. This permits discussion and consensus among editors. From WP tag policy: '''Drive-by tagging is strongly discouraged. The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies, namely Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag. Tags should be added as a last resort.''' Better yet, edit the topic yourself with the improvements. This statement is not a judgement of content, it is only a cleanup of frivolously and/or arbitrarily placed tags. No discussion, no tag.Jjdon (talk) 22:22, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Dog in Gremlins
There is some disagreement about listing the dog from the film Gremlins as a Bouvier, and here are my reasons for deleting that listing. As the link cited shows, this dog, in real life, is named Mushroom, and has appeared in two films, of which Gremlins is one. I find two sources that seem to me to indicate that Mushroom, while having something of the coat and face of a Bouvier, is a smaller dog, probably more like a terrier. These sources are this one, which states that Mushroom is a terrier mix, and this one, which has a photo that looks like a terrier mix. For these reasons, I'm deleting it again, but if you can provide evidence to the contrary here, I'll happily admit to being wrong. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:12, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Dog of Flanders Reference, comments by Jim Engel
A Dog of Flandres Jim Engel

In spite of the stupid movie, in spite of all the nonsense that is written, the dog in "A Dog of Flandres" is not a Bouvier des Flandres. This canard seems to regain traction each time another version of the movie is produced.

The simple fact of the matter is that the Bouvier is not and never was a draft dog. In point of actual fact, the “dog of Flandres” was not a Bouvier at all, but a short coated, yellow, bulky dog of the common Belgian draft dog type, now extinct. Justin Chastel, among others, pointed out the differences in the requisite physical structure and temperament; a cattle dog must be quick and agile rather than have the massive and bulky form of the draft dog.

The dog is described thusly: "A dog of Flandres - yellow of hide, large of head and limb, with wolf-like ears that stood erect, and legs bowed and feet widened in the muscular development wrought in his breed by many generations of hard service.  Patrasche came of a race which had toiled hard and cruelly from sire to son in Flandres many a century - slaves of slaves, dogs of the people, beasts of the shafts and harness, creatures that lived straining their sinews in the gall of the cart, and died breaking their hearts on the flints of the streets." The graphics in the books clearly show a short coated dog.

Although the author Marie Louise de la Ramée or "Ouida" was English by birth her Father was French, a culture she closely identified with. She was a political and animal rights activist; and eventually the draft dog function did become illegal in Belgium and the Netherlands.

"A Dog of Flandres" needs to be seen in the context of Belgian history and politics. The Dutch speaking Flemish were always looked down upon by the French segment of the population; a division so deep that there is serious agitation to separate Belgium into Flemish and French independent nations even today. It is thus easy to read this book as propaganda directed against the cruel and heartless Flemish portrayed in their treatment of the boy Nello and his unfortunate dog.

Angel's Lair

http://www.angelplace.net/Angel/DogOfFlandres.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.117.187.100 (talk) 01:51, 27 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The page currently says: "... is often asserted to be a Bouvier des Flandres." It seems to me that this does convey some doubt. Should we expand upon that? --Tryptofish (talk) 15:10, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Accurateness of temperament section
I re-added the unsourced material box for three reasons:
 * it was removed for no apparent reason at 01:58, 14 November 2012 by‎ 68.120.80.60
 * the section still does not cite any references
 * the information on dominance is highly disputed.

The dominance, blanket-covering theory over everything that owners call problem behaviours is believed to be inaccurate. Many behaviour specialists believe that motivation for dog behaviour cannot be fully explained by dominance/submissive theory. Importantly, this myth means that dog trainers and owners try to correct the "dominance" behaviour in ways which may be dangerous to the owners, may be damaging to the dog and may potentiate the problem. Old behaviour theories concentrated on dominance but modern theories stray away from it, in many situations. Any chance of some experts re-writing this with modern sources or removal of this unsourced information? Earl Moss (talk) 17:35, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Thought I would quickly find some info to back me up. I unbiasly searched "dog dominance theory" and then biasly picked some that I thought looked relevant (hopefully the articals/websites are not bais but feel free to make up your own mind, if choose to look at them). Earl Moss (talk) 18:02, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * http://www.dogwise.com/authpub/dominancetheory_excerpt.pdf
 * http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_12/features/Alpha-Dogs_20416-1.html
 * http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm
 * http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/s15327604jaws0704_7

External links modified
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 * I had to revert the second one. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:20, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Description section
not particularly neutral, is it? Wikipedia Wonderful 698-D (talk) 07:00, 24 March 2020 (UTC)