Talk:Bovidae

Grysbok images, please!
I am looking for appropriate (i.e. copyright-free) images to use in the articles Northern Grysbok and Southern Grysbok. Can anyone help, please? Thanks—GRM 19:51, 6 February 2007 (UTC) ✅ — some time ago and not by me—GRM 18:41, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

contradiction in page
the first few lines say that bovids are not native to south america, but a link further down refers to a page that says that llamas are native to south america. 74.100.227.23 14:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Both these statements are true; llamas are not bovids. Anaxial (talk) 11:55, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Problematic introduction
The article’s introduction makes the claim that “All bovids have the similar basic form ...a pair of horns....” There is no acknowledgment that bovids with multiple pairs of horns (2 or occasionally 3 pairs) also occur. The article claims that “Gestational period is longer for bovids as compared to other mammalian families.” But Is the reader supposed to believe that it is longer than for  equids? proboscids? eschrichtiids? The article states that “Most newborn calves remain hidden for a week to two months, regularly nursed by their mothers”, but there is no mention that some bovid neonates are followers, rather than hiders. The article generalizes that “males become sexually mature much after the females do”. However, in some bovids, the female’s first estrus can be delayed until the second year, while the males are capable of breeding before the end of the first year. The article claims that “Mating seasons occur during the rainy months”; however, at mid- to high latitudes, most sheep tend to be short-day breeders, regardless of when rainy seasons occur. The article states “The Bovidae include three of the five domesticated mammals whose use has spread outside their original ranges, namely cattle, sheep, and goats.” It is not clear why the water buffalo, whose use has spread outside its original ranges,  should be omitted. Also, reference to five is problematic. Elsewhere the article identifies the other two as the horse and pig, ignoring the use of donkeys, dromedaries and dogs that has spread outside of their original ranges. (in addition, some might acknowledge the South American camelids now used outside their original range, e.g. about 76,086 llamas and 140,601 alpacas in the US recently. Some revision would seem desirable, with verification and citations using credible sources.  Schafhirt (talk) 17:43, 21 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for discussing these issues. This will help in improvement prior to FAC.
 * So the first point is about number of horns. I found out about the four-horned antelope and Jacob sheep so I am including them as examples.
 * Families - Yes it's vague... I have made removed it.
 * Followers, not hiders - added
 * Sexual maturity- amended
 * Mating seasons - source needed
 * Number of domesticated mammals - I guess the number must be omitted and only those animals be mentioned which are unanimously accepted as domesticated ones and now reaching beyond their original ranges. So South American camelids can not be included due to its vague support.
 * And do you think the existing sources are dubious?
 * If you have sources to support claims you have made here (e.g. about water buffalo) then please put forth those. Sainsf  &lt;^&gt; Talk all words 04:44, 17 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The camelid figures (140,601 alpacas and 76,086 llamas) in the US are from the US Census of Agriculture 2012, Table 34. However, omitting a specific number of domesticated animals that have spread outside their original range obviates mentioning these.


 * Regarding the mating season in sheep at mid- to high latitudes and its control by daylength effects (not by rainy months), there is a considerable literature. A reasonably comprehensive review is that of
 * Rosa, H.J.D. and Bryant, M.J., 2003. Seasonality of reproduction in sheep. Small Ruminant Research, 48(3), pp.155-171.
 * who describe goats and sheep as "short-day breeders", noting that most sheep breeds commence breeding in summer or early autumn (p.156); they discuss the role of melatonin in the onset of the estrous season and of the thyroid in termination of the estrous season. Schafhirt (talk) 03:28, 18 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I have added the data about reproduction in sheep and goats.

Domestication
Could you please help here, there is some trouble in the "Domesticated animals" section : The Bovidae include three of the five domesticated mammals... and Bali cattle (from the banteng) and Schafhirt has some information and suggestions about it. Sainsf &lt;^&gt; Talk all words 06:33, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I've had a go: it seems to me that nothing very much was wrong, so I hope I haven't missed the point. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:32, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Looks better. Is it possible to include the figures Schahirt has provided? I am a bit confused about it. Sainsf  &lt;^&gt; Talk all words 16:33, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Where are these figures? Who's Schafhirt? Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:28, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Look at the section just above, I guess you missed it. Sainsf  &lt;^&gt; Talk all words 18:15, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Hadn't occurred to me to look there, I looked at the article... we can't use any such figures without sources. I don't have the paper he mentions, but that looks like a reliable source. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:41, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, it is fine as long as the presently stated data has been properly sourced. Sainsf  &lt;^&gt; Talk all words 08:27, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Anatomy
This section mentions numbers of lung lobes, but does not call attention to the third (tracheal) bronchus. Also, variation of body temperature is mentioned in relation to goats, but also occurs in sheep, and the connection of this to anatomy is not indicated. The variation in body temperature while maintaining virtually constant brain temperature is permitted by shunting cooled venous blood from the nasal membranes to the cavernous sinus penetrated by a carotid rete, which serves as a heat exchanger, cooling blood flowing to the brain. Schafhirt (talk) 18:43, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Only that information has been included which could be sourced, and I assure you that I have made all efforts to include maximum information but remaining within the criterion of verifiability. But if you do have credible sources supporting your claims then please put them forth. Sainsf  &lt;^&gt; Talk all words 05:01, 17 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Mentions and discussions of the third bronchus (aka tracheal bronchus, cranial bronchus) in bovids (e.g. ox, sheep, goat), and more generally, in cetartiodactyls, are in several sources, e.g.
 * Dyce, K.M., Sack, W.O. and Wensing, C.J.G., 2009. Textbook of veterinary anatomy. Elsevier Health Sciences. (p. 157:  "In ruminants and pigs a separate tracheal bronchus arises proximal to the tracheal bifurcation and sparately aerates the cranial lobe of the right lung.")
 * Frandson, R.D. and Spurgeon, T.L., 1992. Anatomy and Physiology of Farm Animals. 5th Ed., Philadelphia: Lea & Febiger. (p. 290:  "The ruminants and pigs also have a cranial bronchus, which supplies the cranial lobe of the right lung.")
 * Krankengut, E., 1967. Über den sog. Trachealbronchus. Ergebnisse der Chirurgie und Orthopädie, 49: 1-25. (S. 6: "Hauptvertreter für den Trachealbronchus sind Artiodactyla (Paarzeher Schaf, Rind, Schwein) und Cetacea (Wale, z.B. der gemein Delphin).")


 * Core temperature variation in sheep is discussed by
 * Mohr, E. and Krzywanek, H., 1990. Variations of core-temperature rhythms in unrestrained sheep. Physiology & behavior, 48(3), pp.467-473.
 * Rise in core body temperature without adverse effect on brain temperature is enabled by selective brain cooling; this can occur during dehydration, as discussed by
 * Fuller, A., Meyer, L.C., Mitchell, D. and Maloney, S.K., 2007. Dehydration increases the magnitude of selective brain cooling independently of core temperature in sheep. American Journal of Physiology-Regulatory, Integrative and Comparative Physiology, 293(1), pp.R438-R446.
 * and is inferred to be a water-conserving mechanism where water is in short supply, as discussed by
 * Kuhnen, G., 1997. Selective brain cooling reduces respiratory water loss during heat stress. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part A: Physiology, 118(3), pp.891-895.  Schafhirt (talk) 03:39, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for providing these citations and information. I am busy with other articles just now, so I will work on these later. I really appreciate your help for improving this article! Thanks again, Sainsf  &lt;^&gt; Talk all words 03:52, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Reproduction
Some bovid young can follow their mothers after birth while others hide in vegetation for some time. This should be in the article. LittleJerry (talk) 02:16, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your suggestion. Most newborn calves remain hidden for a week to two months, regularly nursed by their mothers. In some bovid species the neonates start following about their mothers immediately or within a few days, as in the impala.[58] I guess this has been already mentioned in the article. If you have more to say on this suggestion or have more suggestions, then please add them here as this would be quite helpful before FAC. Sainsf  &lt;^&gt; Talk all words 05:22, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh okay. Missed that. LittleJerry (talk) 14:56, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Timeline of evolution
“In the early Miocene, bovids began diverging from the cervids (deer) and giraffids.”

“The Bovinae are believed to have diverged from the rest of the Bovidae in the late Oligocene.[16]”

Contradiction!

Grasyop ✉ 20:52, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I suppose it's possible that this is correct, in the sense that that's what the two differing references say. But the 20 million year figure cited for the first line seems to be the prevailing opinion today, and it's likely the source for the second line that has become outdated. I have amended the article with a new reference that supports the "early Miocene" quote. Anaxial (talk) 20:52, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

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