Talk:Bowie knife/Archive 1

Bowie Knife vs Machete
It seems that Bowie Knives are somewhat of a small machete (the largest bowie knife and smallest machete being at 12 inches). What do you think? Zachorious 04:11, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Bayonet link
Why the link to the Napoleonic bayonet site? It's broken anyway so I recommend either fixing it with an explaination of its relevance or cutting it. Peregrine 07:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Have removed Peregrine 06:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that was just spam. I reverted all of his contribs but didn't go far enough back on this one. Kafziel Talk 12:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Legal status
I've begun a section on "legal status." Possession (or specifically, "carrying") of a Bowie knife is a criminal offense in Texas, the land for which Jim Bowie fought and died. Does anyone have information on status of this weapon in other jurisdictions? Yours, Famspear 17:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Are there no other articles discussing the legalities of bladed weapons in the US? This page doesn't seem like the place to discuss it in detail. I appreciate the irony, but suspect a link to another page might make more sense. Random name 13:08, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Dear editor Random name: The section does not discuss the legalities of "bladed weapons" in general. The article is about the Bowie knife in particular, not bladed weapons in general.


 * However, you may have a good point. For example, the article on the AK-47 more or less does it your way -- with only a brief mention in the main article and a link to a separate article on legality of the AK-47. Maybe it has been set up that way because the legal information can easily make for long, separate articles????


 * Anyway, I'll defer to you and others who edit the weapons articles on how to handle this. My interest is not so much in the Bowie knife or other weapons anyway. I'm more into legal matters. Yours, Famspear 14:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


 * it depends on where you live. california it's not legal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.199.154.49 (talk) 19:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear editors: I have removed the "Ironically" language from the comment on legal status. I am the editor who put the language in the article in the first place, and I agree in retrospect that it's POV that can be removed. (By the way, I accidentally noted my latest edit as "minor", which I didn't intend to do.) Yours, Famspear (talk) 13:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Right after the Sandbar duel, Bowie knives became very popular and many people replaced their sword canes with them. A fight broke out in the Alabama legislature in which one of of the congressman evicerated another one with a bowie knife.--Mcumpston (talk) 23:18, 11 April 2008 (UTC) In the late 1830s, Tennessee, and Alabama both inacted anti bowie knife legislation and texas included Bowie knives by name as an illegal knife in 1871 legislation that outlawed carrying of pistols, dirks, daggers, swords, sword canes. bowie knives clubs and other items.

Movie title incorrect
The Alan Ladd movie about Jim Bowie is The Iron Mistress (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044753/), not The Iron Maiden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.186.68 (talk) 14:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Brass Back-strap
I've heard this story about the brass back being used to "catch" blades but it's always struck me as remarkably unlikely. Unless someone can verify it I recommend it be cut. Peregrine 12:21, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That's common enough actually, lots of knives and swords use some method of catching another blade with the back or side. Whether you're quick enough to do it is a matter of practice and talent I assume.209.169.111.193 02:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC) (Eno-Etile, forgot to login)
 * Perhaps we're using "catch" in different senses here. I'm familiar with back surface parries (al la circle six in FIE fencing) but as it was reported to me it involved intercepting someones edge with one's own back.  So it needs both citation and clarification (as does the reference to the dirk).Peregrine 06:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know, I just understood it to mean that the softer metal on the back would be used to "catch" your opponents knife/sword/etc as an attempt to reduce damage to your own knife (especially the blade), and to increase the liklihood of damaging your opponets blade. But if you're talking about actually catching and holding your opponents weapon I'd have to agree that it seems unlikely.Eno-Etile 02:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Again, 'catch' needs to be defined here. Setting a thrust aside with the back, fine, taking a blow on the back...I'm not so sure.  One version of the story I've recently come across is that it's to prevent damage to the blade when using the back as an expedient hammer.Peregrine 15:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Bit late on teh repost, sorry. Well it would defintly prevent damage to the blade as a narrow surface takes more damage from a blow than a wider one. Thats why you can hit a metal post with a baseball bat for hours and not damage it but you dull or possibly break a knife made of the same material. Oh And various sword methods teach that you use the side or back of the sword to block as opposed to the edged end of the blade 209.169.111.193 03:35, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm also doubtful about this. If nobody objects, I'm going to rewrite a little at some future time. I'll have to go to a library. Noble Rust (talk) 03:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

There may have been 19th century bowies with brass backs but I didn't find any in a fairly wide-ranging search of available pictures when I wrote it up for guns magazine. there is one blade catchingdesign feature that appeared on some bowies of the alleged James Black/ musso bowies. This is a notch at the bottom of the tang just in front of the handguard and on the sharp side of the blade. It is called a " Spanish notch" and was supposed to be useful in spanish style sabre fencing which some New Orleans instructors modified for use with the bowie knives. --Mcumpston (talk) 04:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The Spanish Notch is not used for blade catching in the Spanish style of knife fighting as referenced by both the Manual del Baratero and by James Loriaga's book Sevelian Steel. Many researchers today believe it to be a tool for stripping sinew and tying/reparing rope and nets.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.97.67.59 (talk) 18:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Origins of the Bowie knife
Before I update the general theme of the article to reflect the fact that the definitive creator of the bowie knife is not really known (much as is described in the James Bowie article), does anyone have a credible source saying that James Bowie actually created / designed the Bowie knife. I know Paladin press makes a lot of books, but that doesn't make them an authoritative source on history, and I'd argue rather strongly that they aren't. Random name (talk) 21:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I did a bit of research on this for an article in Guns Magazine last year. at the time, I had a couple of Blade Magazines on hand that had articles presenting period documentation that the first Bowie knife was Made by a Bowie neighbor, a Mr. Clift at the request of Resin Bowie. Description and origin: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080510080734AAovCX2

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_53/ai_n27161901/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

"Bowie got crosswise with one Norris Wright leading to a violent street encounter. Brother Rezin, wanting James to be properly accoutered, commissioned a neighbor Jesse Clifft, to make a defensive knife. Rezin later filed a statement the knife was made from a file, the blade straight-backed without false edge, 9 1/4" long, 1/4" thick and 1 1/2 wide. The instrument had neither guard nor any features distinguishing it from a Spanish hunting knife or, for that matter, a common butcher knife. The chronicles relate Jim wore it in a silver-mounted sheath"

I returned the Blade Magazines which were the basis for the above quote and cannot provide complete citation.--Mcumpston (talk) 01:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It would be great if we could find that historical documentation somewhere. Looking at "The Bowie Knife: Unsheathing an American Legend" by Norm Flayderman, which certainly cites a lot of documentation, it too says that the creator of the bowie knife is not really known. I also dragged out a pretty old article from the American Journal of Folklore which is less comprehensive, but has the same conclusion. Mind you, the Flayderman article did mention something about the knife being created from a file - I'll re-read that section when I'm back home - if the Clifft thing turns out to be right, the Jim Bowie article will need updating! Random name (talk) 18:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Just googling around, I found several references to Clift most without citations and the others citing my guns magazine article. I also found one place attributing it to another brother of bowies and another neighbor alleged to hve made the knife. This item is legendary enough that the truth would be just about impossible to find. --Mcumpston (talk) 19:50, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the best that can be done is present the available information as different versions and let the reader decide for themselves.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:35, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I think so. Things get even more confusing when your try to figure out what knife he had at the alamo and various other times. The James Black story can be found in the "Bowie Knife and Arkansas Toothpick article and elsewhere. that's the design you usually see in the movies. Some of the people who tell this story seem dubious about the secret tempering formula and other aspects of the story. Some museum Bowie knives look just like period kitchen and skinning knives.

Resin never departed far from the Fowler knife pictured at the top of the article -even after the Alamo. Some stories say that the handguard was added after a Bowie friend or family member messed up his hand stabbing a wild cow with one of the earliest models that had no such guard and looked like a Spanish camp knife or butcher knife. One story insists that Jim Bowie's nurse at the Alamo took the knife and it was a Sheffield pattern marked with the IXL company markings (This is the story IXL prefers. --Mcumpston (talk) 21:36, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * In 2004 I completed my research paper titled "Who Made James Bowie's Famous Knives---The True Story." A copy is registered in the Library of Congres.  And a short version was published in the BACKWOODSMAN magazine, Jan-Feb 2002 issue.  After publication the editor told me he received "tons" of responses and that almost all were in my favor.
 * The writer of the Wikipedia article titled The Bowie Knife is a good writer, but my story of the bowie knife cannot be assimilated due to my writing style. Also there are numerous errors (not his fault) that need correcting.  I am very distured by the James Black section.  James Black DID make a knife for James Bowie and why he did it is interesting.  When James arrived home in December after the Indian fight he learned that he important business to attend to in Arkansas and Louisiana.  During the trip through the wilderness he lost the butcher knife that Rezin gave him.  Whe Bowie was in Washington, Arkansas he had James Black make him a knife to fit in his leather knife sheath.  He might have made a wood patter and it might have had a handguard.  Anyway, he had to have the knife for protection during the rest of his trip.  On the return trip to San Antonio he stopped in Gonzales, Texas and picked up his new clip-point bowie knife from John N. Sowell, an old gunmaker.  Beaveroregon, March 3, 2009

Consistency?
Note that this conflicts with the story of the knife's origin in the Wikipedia article on the "Sandbar Fight" where a blacksmith named Cleft (apparently documented) made the knife based on a design by Bowie's brother.


 * For the brother, see Rezin Bowie. Some work should be done on consistency of what is said here, and sources cited. Charles Matthews 15:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Much of the information that Wikipedia has provided on the Bowie Knife is incorrect. Included is a list (not all inclusive) of problems with it. Most of the information falls into these catagories... 1. NOT TRUE 2. The knife photo'd is not even pre 1900 and doesn't even resemble a "Bowie Knife". 3. Most of their "facts" are not even close to what is generally accepted by most scholarly collectors and 3. There are two sides to every story and the Black story is generally thought of as just that..."A Story"; by the most advanced students/collectors of history 4. There is no evidence that Jim Bowie designed the "Bowie Knife", nor was it done in Arkansas. 5. There is evidence that Jim's Brother Rezin Bowie designed the first Bowie (butcher) Knife. There are many good references to access parts of this history. The best is Mr. Norman Flaydermans "The Bowie Knife, Unsheathing an American Legend." Mr. Flayderman gives both sides of the story and then uses scholar to credit and discredit where necesary. That which cannot be proven is left up to the reader. There is no stone unturned and many photo examples are given. It also is the first time that an attempt has been made to define "Bowie Knife". That reference should be used in Wikipedia. I am not billing Mr. Flaydermans book or being bias in any way, just pointing out what over 50 years of unbiased scholarly research on the subject "Bowie Knife" has resulted in...  Before you cite the Bowie knife and where it was made, you owe it to yourself and future generations to read in full "The Bowie Knife, Unsheathing an American Legend". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.193.84.159 (talk) 15:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with much of this criticism, and am trying to get my hands on some materials to properly cite regarding at least some of these issues. I'm not entirely convinced there are "many" good references, but there are certainly some. Random name 11:31, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a lot of mis-nomelclature revolving around the Bowie knife. If anyone is interested there is a really informative book out on the market, it is kind of expensive, but well worth it. In it is every article every written about bowie knives. It is titled "The Bowie Knife - Unsheathing an American Legend" written by Norm Flayderman and it is for sale at www.agrussell.com. There is also another book out that has a lot of wonderful information about knives including but not limited to bowie knives called "Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values" by Bernard Levine, revised 4th edition. It is currently out of print, but can still be found in some places for a price. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saucycountrygirl (talk • contribs) 20:29, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

"Buck knife" cite?
A "buck knife" is a brand/manufacturer of knives that sometimes do have a bowie style/clip point blade. When the original Buck 110 first came out it attracted a lot of attention and other makers began producing designs similar. From there on out anything that resembled that knife was called a "buck knife". Bowie is really a style of blade rather than a knife. It isn't necessarily a fixed blade, it can also be a folder as well. There is so much misleading information about bowie knives that it kind of hard to know what to believe and what not to believe. I work in the knife industry so I know first hand how confusing it can be.--Saucycountrygirl (talk) 20:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

'''buck knives and bowie knives are two entirely separate animals. The bowie knife has a fixed blade while the buck knife has a folding blade that locks into the open position for safety.''' MPaquette 17:12, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree - can anyone comment on the "Buck knife" reference in this article? I haven't heard anyone called bowie knives buck knives myself, and it smells a bit like marketing. Random name 13:38, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The buck General, The Buck special and the buck Frontiersman all have bowie-style blades and are fixed sheath knives. The Buck 110 folder is often considered the generic Buck Knife though the company makes dozens of designs. --Mcumpston (talk) 23:10, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Not sure how to do it, so I won't even try, but the pronunciation on bowie is wrong, check how it is pronounced here against how it is pronounced in the jim bowie article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.204.138.244 (talk) 01:49, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

When I came across the page it read: "pronounced bow-ee nife"

I decided to add IPA and clean up the pronunciation respelling. According to the chart for pronunciation respelling, “bow” is /baʊ/, so I used that and the page for David Bowie as a guide to writing the IPA.

It came out thus: "pronounced   knife"

By consulting the OED and Merriam-Webster, I now find out that both /ˈboʊ.iː/ and /ˈbuː.iː/ are common pronunciations (OED writes /ˈbəʊɪnaɪf/ for bowie-knife, but /əʊ/ seems to be the British equivalent of /oʊ/).

/ˈbaʊ.iː/, on the other hand isn’t mentioned in either dictionary, so that was probably just my misreading of the pronunciation respelling. I will change the pronunciation guide to: "pronounced  or  " and add a reference to Merriam-Websters webpage.

Ildkugle (talk) 19:06, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Both of the other references listed for the  pronunciation are available at Google Books and actually say "BOOWEY" and "boo-ee."  I'll move those references to the   pronunciation now to reflect that.  Not R (talk) 18:17, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Rambo Knife
Hi, can someone start a new article, or section, about the Rambo knife. It surprised me, no article on Wikipedia I found, about a Rambo knife. They're popular here, in the Indian subcontinent. Albeit fuzzy legal status, they're possessed by some, mainly small localized gangs, as a souvenir. It's known about them - gangs and rambo knives, when they're arrested.

Rambo knives are those, the ones John Rambo, used in the Rambo and Expendable series of films.

A coincidence - John Rambo is from Bowie, Arizona. And this knife is called a bowie knife.

I first read of a Rambo knife, in the newspapers, many times, when gangs are arrested, Rambo knives, are confiscated by them. Gang members have used these knives in an assault. Which is in addition to having them as souvenirs. Newspaper reports used the exact term - Rambo knives. They never used the term Bowie knife. Also because Bowie knife is hard on the Indian speaker, Rambo knife, sounds familiar, with the local tongue, here.

Also, upon Googling on the Internet, the term Rambo knife appears in many websites, yet there is no article on Wikipedia. Thus this section, by me. I think Bowie knife and Rambo knife are the same thing. But I ain't a knife expert. Someone, please conclude. And don't forget to start the Rambo knife article, or section - below the Bowie knife, or maybe some other similiar knife I don't know of. I'm even seeing machete here.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.195.13.133 (talk) 21:18, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Type
Under 'Type' in the info box, it says, "I phone." Is it supposed to say that? --ThePlaneFan (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2013 (UTC)ThePlaneFan

No Bowie knife fighting schools
The history of the Bowie knife is complicated, with many conflicting claims. Its study was complicated by the publication of a mid-twentieth century text, the Bowie Knife, by Raymond W. Thorp, 1948. "Raymond Thorp's Bowie Knife, privately published in 1948, is a dreadful work..." "Its citations are confused or erroneous, genuine quotations have been altered, and some material apparently simply invented." (Davis, 1998, p 752) The book influenced later works, both fictional and non-fictional. Example: Bowie knife fighting schools entered history via Thorp who quoted from a fictional story. They were then accepted as fact in American Knives by Harold Peterson, 1958. (Flayderman, 2004, p 312) Hopewell accepted them in a Bowie biography which was then cited here and in other articles on Bowie. Flayderman acknowledged that fencing and self-defense were taught in the era, so the claim is not totally without basis, but it is misleading. [Davis and Flayderman may have some conflict of interest in criticizing Thorp.] I am removing the reference to the schools.172.249.8.109 (talk) 19:33, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Hello User:172.249.8.109, There is precedence for long standing text that shouldn't just be deleted. In addition, the fighting school wasn't the only concept that was removed. When the Bowie knife was most popular, where, and a book that could be interesting reading for those who are interested in the subject. Just removing the fighting school text seems appropriate. I find your "talk" notes interesting too. Why not write a paragraph on the fighting school conflict in historical docs?--Alrich44 (talk) 12:31, 11 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Flayerman is a 512 page book. It has the material for many new paragraphs.172.249.8.109 (talk)


 * Alrich44, Proposal: (footnote)"Accounts of Bowie knife fighting schools are based on fiction. Regional newspapers of the era contained advertisements for classes in fencing and self-defense."(Flayderman reference Chapter 11: "Bowie Knife Duels, Rules, Manuals ... and Schools - Dueling in American Folkways and Folklore").172.249.8.109 (talk) 23:57, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


 * User:172.249.8.109, I'm looking forward to reading them. Thanks. 98.237.198.170 (talk) 04:30, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I am not commiting to anything. The inter-library loan (for an $80 book) expires soon.172.249.8.109 (talk) 23:57, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi User:172.249.8.109, If you bracket my name, Wiki will flag me that you're continuing the discussion. Wiki doesn't consistently notify me of the articles I've flagged, like this talk page. The proposal looks better. I would include the refs to Thorp, Davis, and Peterson for establishing the schools were unsubstantiated. Thanks for the rewrite. Alrich44 (talk) 20:13, 13 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Alrich44 Changes have been made. Review them please.172.249.8.109 (talk) 22:53, 14 March 2015 (UTC)


 * [User:Alrich44|Alrich44] Single brackets or double? I can't find a description of this feature.172.249.8.109 (talk) 18:26, 16 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi User:172.249.8.109, Thanks for clarifying. I'm not seeing recent edits by User:Mike Searson. If you bracket his name, WP will flag him a notice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.237.198.170 (talk) 21:27, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Links to missing articles
There are several such links. Have articles been removed or are they planned?172.249.8.109 (talk) 19:35, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * It looks like in at least one case (false edge), there was an article which has since been deleted. The others may have been planned by the person who linked them and they never got around to it.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:15, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Should I fix the links? I am not writing new articles.172.249.8.109 (talk) 18:23, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * It would be nice to point to sections of Blade, Knife, Sword or Guard for more information on these topics. :-)172.249.8.109 (talk) 19:49, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Legend?
The sandbar fight section says "...is the only documented fight in which Bowie was known to have employed his Bowie knife design." The James Black section says "According to reports of the time, Bowie used his knife to kill all three men: one assassin was nearly decapitated, the second was disemboweled, and the skull of the third man was split open." My attempt to harmonize the versions by labeling the latter a legend was reverted. There are citable sources for both positions. Suggestions? I am planning a substantial edit that mentions the conflicting historical evidence which complicates the interpretation of knife history. The edit may generate discussion.172.249.8.109 (talk) 21:19, 14 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi 172.249.8.109, Why is there a conflict if in one fight he killed three guys? 98.237.198.170 (talk) 21:28, 14 March 2015 (UTC)


 * It didn't. The [Sandbar fight] killed two, one by knife, one by gunfire.172.249.8.109 (talk) 22:39, 14 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry about my garbled reply. The Sandbar Fight killed two, one by knife, one by gunfire.  Bowie was responsible for only the knife death.  Black never claimed credit for the knife used in the Sandbar brawl.  The James Black story also requires an earlier fight.  After James' death at the Alamo, his brother Rezin Bowie flatly denied other fights and duels.  The accounts of Rezin Bowie and James Black are incompatible.  My references side with Bowie, but both sides have supporters.172.249.8.109 (talk) 20:17, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Amendment: The accounts of Bowie and Black are incompatible regarding James Bowie. There is no incompatibility wrt the knife itself.


 * Mike Searson, who reverted my edit, is a member of a wikipedia blade project. Hopefully, he can supply some light.172.249.8.109 (talk) 21:06, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The sources do not call it a "legend", we write articles based upon reliable sources, not legends. Now if a reliable source refers to it as a legend, that is different. My advice would be to represent both sides just like you laid out in the previous paragraph:"sources a nd b state... whereas sources c and d put forth..." etc. Thanks for your work on improving the article, I look forward to your progress and feel free to ping me if you have questions.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:46, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I will try. My sources mostly take one side.  Being evenhanded will require extra prose :(.172.249.8.109 (talk) 20:02, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

My attempt at being even-handed in describing the James Black knife fight is failing.
 * The cited references include Mike Cumpston, William Manns and Gerard Pacella. Pacella's title includes "Legendary".  Cumpston says, "According to the legend, as Bowie crossed into Texas...".  He cites no references.
 * Flayderman trashes the story (pp 448-449). The Jones account of 1919 says, "Bowie became entangled in a difficulty with three desperados who assaulted him with knives.  He killed them all with the knife Black had made."  Assassins, a prior duel, and details of their deaths are drama added by Raymond Thorp in the mid-20th century.
 * Black didn't claim to witness the fight? Then the Jones account is (at least) third hand evidence, reported ~90 years after the event.
 * Historians can't find "reports of the time" to support the fight in the Jones account. The oldest citation in Hopewell's James Bowie: Texas Fighting Man Chapter 13: Bowie, The Fighting Machine was from 50 years after the event.
 * Hopewell's James Bowie: Texas Fighting Man relies on Thorp (6 of 9 citations in Chapter 7: The Saga of James Black). "This according to Raymond Thorp in his Bowie Knife, was the battle that gave to Bowie and his knife such undying fame." (p 47)  Hopewell is the primary reference for the James Bowie article on Wikipedia.

So, if you have any evidence that the account of the James Black knife fight is historical rather than legendary, cite it. Flayderman said a decade ago, that the James Black story generated heated controversy within the "antique arms press". Has new evidence come to light since then?

Absent support, I plan to write another footnote in a few days.172.249.8.109 (talk) 19:08, 17 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Done.172.249.8.109 (talk) 23:10, 23 March 2015 (UTC)