Talk:Bowler hat

Untitled
Several websites say the hat was designed in 1850 for William Coke II, later Earl of Leicester, however. No man called William Coke II became Earl of Leicester, furthermore - Thomas William Coke, 2nd Earl of Leicester, became Earl of Leicester in 1842, so he is too early his sone Thomas William Coke, 3rd Earl of Leicester was only born in 1848 so he is too late. I presume that these sites are incorrect and that the man in question was either related to the Earls or was infact completely unrelated. Mintguy (T)

Thomas William Coke, 2nd Earl of Leicester, was William Coke II. He was born in 1822 and took over his father's position when he died in 1842. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Coke,_2nd_Earl_of_Leicester_of_Holkham

References to Lock's hatters, which still calls them "Cokes", seem simply to call the gentleman they are named for "Sir William Coke". I think you're right that he's not one of the Earls. Possibly even the "Sir" is an exaggeration! -- Nunh-huh 23:34, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Should we place a banner asking for sources or further research? This sounds like an important thing to correct! Canonblack 22:11, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Current fashion at Preston North End football club (England) is to wear bowler hats at matches. See PNE Online for more information and pictures. WiW ;)

Was there iron in the "iron hat"?
The nickname "iron hat" and the original use to protect gamekeepers' heads implies that it was originally designed as a sort of helmet. Was it ever constructed of something other than hard felt? I think this should be made clearer. I read "iron hat" and "protect gamekeepers' heads" and I immediately think of John Steed's steel-crowned bowler! Canonblack 22:11, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

The iron hat was introduced in 1851 at the Great Exibition. It was designed to protect the head in the city from falling objects, as well as to protect the head from falling objects in factories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.1.41.104 (talk • contribs)

Well, it's the shape of the crown that gives it its 'iron strength.' The ovoid/spherical shape is also why an (unbroken) eggshell is so strong too. Further, the gap between the top of the crown and the wearer's actual head means that if a falling object does dent the hat, it may well stop before it actually injures the wearer. Really it's a pretty decent idea - the precursor to the hard hat! ^_^ 142.162.56.157 12:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone else feel that this is no longer a stub?

I'm looking into the possibility this counts as an early hard hat. The "iron" part may be a kind of secrete_(helmet). Looking at how much evidence and acceptance there is of this interpretation, and how to incorporate it into Wikipedia. Patron Vectras (talk) 15:24, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Plagiarism
Most of that article directly plagiarises. This should be addressed as copy pasting of other websites is rather frowned upon..

Mussolini?
I've never seen a photo of Mussolini wearing a bowler. Even if he did I think he's more famous for this hat.
 * Alas, that image is now 404 compliant. JDZeff (talk) 23:43, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Modern popularity
The bowler has seemed to return....billabong has a bowler design and one of the members of Panic! At the Disco wears one. Perhaps a section on this?

Bizznot 03:38, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Marilyn Manson also wears them, Perhaps he should be added to the list of famous people. 4.244.42.68 (talk) 00:27, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Lou Costello
Someone should add him to the list of famous people in bowlers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.195.209.55 (talk) 00:13, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Sir Winston Churchill
Sir Winston Churchill wore a Homburg (with a flatter squarer crown) not a bowler. Barney Bruchstein (talk) 21:31, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Indeed - I am amazed at the number of sites that claim he wore a bowler and in doing so, show a picture of him in a Homburg! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.200.1 (talk) 08:44, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Churchill wore a Bowker (as well as an occasional Homburg). It was known also as a Cambridge bowler and was also worn by Odd Job. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tatimmins (talk • contribs) 16:36, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Bowler =/= Derby
The Bowler and the Derby are not recognized to be the same hat. I suppose someone could argue that the Bowler is a type of Derby hat, but the Bowler has a distinctly higher crown, almost distended compared to the classic Derby.. I doubt that there really needs to be 2 entries, but it should be cleaned up a little bit instead of implying they are the same thing.

Utopienne 03:55, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Can you find a source saying so? If that's the case I'll be more than happy to include that when I rewrite the article-- KelvinHO Wiknerd ( talk ) 00:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Cricket?
This particular little piece of information has a vague whiff of urban myth. I would very much like to know where the information came from.

Tag Happy
Whatever deficiencies this article may have, I doubt we need as many tags as it has. --Nricardo (talk) 16:05, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Deleting the entire Bowler Wearer's List

 * There is nothing wrong with making lists on Wikipedia, and in fact there are whole articles which are nothing more than lists: See WP:LISTS. It may be that if people are offended that the list of famous Bowler wearers here is now longer than the rest of the article (which it is, by 10 kb vs. 7 kb, then the thing to do is make a separate Famous wearers of the Bowler hat areticle and use it as the main article for this section. That's fine with me, so long as the information is not lost.


 * There are questions about the WP:RS policy. First, it does not say that any editor is free to delete anything they see on WP which doesn't have a citation. Since most of what's on WP doesn't have a cite, and much of what does, at one didn't (it was added later) this would be a disater for the content of WP. We have a policy WP:IAR which covers harming of the content of WP, while citing some policy section which really doesn't say what you think it does. This is called Wikilawyering.


 * In case, many of the cites of people who wore Bowler hats are self-referencing, since clicking on them shows a photograph of the person in question in a Bowler hat. For example Doug North, Bat Masterson, Butch Cassidy, and many others. This is primary evidence, and is adquate citation if no original research or difficult interpretation is required. Since it's perfectly obvious that most Bowler hats are hats on sight.


 * Finally, I have warned new user user:NajiimP from coming out of nowhere to back up user:JBsupreme in an edit war. If NajiimP is an alternate account of JBsupreme, that's enough to get them both blocked from WP, right there. So don't play that game unless you're prepared to show your hand, and it's an honest one. Double dealing here on WP is fatal.

Meanwhile, I'm going to revert this one more time, and then I'm going to leave it up to the many editors of this article, what they want done. S B Harris 01:51, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

List of wearers is gone
It had been partly organized, and actually was mostly internally referenced. But after a very WP:LAME discussion, it was decided that it needed to be deleted, in order to make room in the limited space we have here, for the box scores of your local hockey team, or something. So sorry.

I liked the "famous wearers" list. Not enough room on Wiki? Plenty of room for porno star bios! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.219.149.93 (talk) 02:31, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

For the history and the arguments on both sides, which is actually somewhat educational outside of this particular topic:

Articles for deletion/List of notable people who wore the bowler hat

But don't come here asking "why"? The above, is "why." S B Harris 01:20, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That discussion is why a non-GFDL-compliant copy of the list, in another article, is gone. The edit history here in this article remains intact, and everyone can discuss here what items on the list are actually verifiable from reliable sources, and can be put back into this article, with accompanying source citations, after they were challenged for being unverifiable, per our normal process of challenging and demonstrating verifiability.  Uncle G (talk) 21:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * A non-GFDL-compliant copy?? What are you talking about?? S  B Harris 01:20, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Bowler hats on South American women
The section on why the Bowler hat is worn by Quechua and Aymara women in Peru and Bolivia needs some more research. It does have specific source cited but there are various other assertions about the origin of this fashion on the web right now. Yahoo Answers for one. I will do some research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bryankennedy (talk • contribs) 17:51, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

In the City of London?
Until the 80s the bowler hat was seen as the trademark apparel of a city gent, particularly one working in finance, perhaps topping off a pinstripe suit. This was part of the image of John Steed, but also the backstory for the bowlerhatted Bradford and Bingley characters (they apparently trademarked the hat in association with financial services!)

This ought to be mentioned in the article.

I won't mention the Homepride men...

The Yowser (talk) 12:57, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

In Victorian times right up to the mid-to-late twentieth century a Bowler hat was what one wore to work in the City, whereas a top hat was worn to special occasions, e.g., weddings and funerals, or state occasions, i.e., one hat was for work, the other for dress. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.147.13 (talk) 16:45, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

RUN DMC
black bowler hat or fedora is a signature item that the band was rarely seen without, so it would be ok to mention them in the article. (trivia section maybe, and/or with a picture) — Preceding unsigned comment added by RedeemerZG (talk • contribs) 13:31, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Trivialities lacking any semblance of noteworthiness...
The wikipedia entry for "hamster" does not include a list of hamster owners.

Twenty years ago, Dwight Yoakum (per a TV interview) and I both thought the Radiohead song "Creep" displayed genius. I found that song so "very special" that I bought the "f'ing special" album. I can recall a Radiohead song titled "Paranoid Android", on a later album, that was also popular. I had forgotten the name of their singer, and I don't recollect ever hearing their song "Lotus Flower". A few years after the release of this music video, Radiohead released a 30-track, 2-CD, "best of" album. Much more recently a 21-track "best of" DVD box set was marketed. Neither of these compilations included a song entitled "Lotus Flower".

My point is, why would any competent editor here give a rat's ass whether some average band's little-known singer once wore a bowler hat in the music video for some insignificant song? It's worthless minutiae that only clutters an article and helps to clog the web with wasted electrons.

A couple years ago the Kennedy Center for the Arts held their 35th annual "Honors" celebration. The prestigious position of being the evening's final honoree was given to Led Zeppelin (perhaps a band of greater renown than Radiohead?). The finale performance that night was a rendition of "Stairway to Heaven" sung by Ann Wilson with Jason Bonham on drums (it was an *awesome* cover, youtube the "full" 8-minute version!). Jason is the son of John Bonham. John was the original Led Zeppelin drummer whose death in 1980 resulted in the breakup of the group. John often wore a bowler hat. In tribute, his son Jason wore a bowler during the entire Kennedy Center performance. Midway through the song a curtain is raised as a large choir joins in. Thirty-three years after his death the eighty choir members all sport bowler hats in tribute to John Bonham. This is an association to the article topic that could be considered noteworthy. Entries that boil down to "I once saw so-and-so wearing a bowler..." offer nothing of value to this articles content. 76.84.4.68 (talk) 09:47, 15 November 2015 (UTC) Paul


 * Great to see you haven't "wasted electrons" with your charming amble down millinery memory lane here. But please be careful what you say about musical rats. --- Fundamentally yours, Martinevans123 (talk) 12:12, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

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Trilby
Please correct me if I am wrong, but was the bowler hat at one time also known as a trilby? If so, this name could be added to the list of names the bowler hat is also known as. Vorbee (talk) 16:47, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:07, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Malcolm McDowell Clockwork Orange.png

Any differences from billycock
This page offers "billycock" as an alternate name but the Wiktionary suggests it is only "similar to a bowler." Dictionary.com suggests, "a derby or a hat resembling it." Baring-Gould says that the billycock was typically, but not always, soft felt, whereas the bowler is stiff. Does anyone know if the two are literally the same or if, perhaps, the derby is a type of billycock? Czrisher (talk) 14:38, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Also known as a "Billy Coke" it seems, where it originated at Holkham, in Norfolk: . Martinevans123 (talk) 16:37, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Lucius Beebe
Beebe gets quoted here (and elsewhere around the internet) as some kind of "proof" that Derby/bowler hats were the favored hats worn in the 19th century American West. Follow the link in the article, and you will get to a 1957 article by Beebe that ran in the Deseret News. Beebe bases his opinion that derbies were the "preferred" hats in the West by citing period photos of various 19th century Western figures. He does not attempt to compare that number against period photos of Westerners wearing non-derbies. No doubt there were plenty of people in the 19th century American West wearing derby hats (especially in places like San Francisco and Seattle), but I think Beebe's brief survey falls short of proving that the derby/bowler was the "preferred style of hat in the West at that time. And I would bet that whatever popularity it had there declined in the early 20th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:300A:D9F:1000:A433:A7FD:DABB:AECE (talk) 19:26, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Are citations really needed, though?
I'm not sure what the policy is, but it seems to me that this article has a few too many of those annoying "citation needed" tags. For example:

"Many paintings by the Belgian surrealist artist René Magritte feature bowler hats. The Son of Man consists of a man in a bowler hat standing in front of a wall. The man's face is largely obscured by a hovering green apple. Golconda depicts "raining men" all wearing bowler hats.[citation needed]"

(Just hovering the cursor over the wikilinks to those paintings will show the bowler hats. No further citation needed.)

"Cornelius Fudge in the Harry Potter series is frequently mentioned as wearing a bowler hat.[citation needed]"

(The passage cites the Harry Potter series. No further citation needed. FWIW, the infobox on the Wikipedia page for Robert Hardy shows the actor playing Cornelius Fudge in a bowler hat.)

"Dr. Peacock, Dutch DJ, music producer, label owner, event organizer and businessman.[citation needed]"

(Hover over the wikilink for Dr. Peacock, see Stefan Petrus Dekker in a bowler hat.)

J. Wellington Wimpy wears a bowler hat.[citation needed]

(Guess what?) 81.105.46.48 (talk) 21:14, 17 January 2024 (UTC)