Talk:Bowling Revolution P-League

Averages in P-League are only one decimal place
The following image shows that all averages displayed in P-League are one decimal place. http://s421.photobucket.com/albums/pp293/groinkhi/?action=view&current=p-league-1-decimal-point.png

Also, you were rounding off, which is also wrong on the part of P-League. In the following image, Nishimura-pro has an average of 212.6. You had her at 212.59. http://s421.photobucket.com/albums/pp293/groinkhi/?action=view&current=Untitled.png

This article is about P-League, and it even goes as far as the convention P-League uses for all statistics. The statistics all cite P-League as a source. Please don't go invoking methods used outside of P-League.

Groink (talk)

Rebuttal
I've been watching P-League since tournament 17 and earlier (and you know I've watched all the recent "episodes"), so I already know that P-League displays averages in only one decimal. You commented above: "and it even goes as far as the convention P-League uses for all statistics" and looking through the edit history of the article, it certainly looks like you were the one who put the average table up (21:40, December 26, 2010)‎, so it appears to me that you ("it"?) went as far as using the P-League way for statistics in a Wikipedia article. You are giving me the appearance that you somehow "own" this article.

Just because P-League has "their own" convention on their p-league.jp site and television, that has little bearing when posting about it on Wikipedia. Regular bowling convention dictates truncating the decimal, and not rounding up (use 2 places up to 100 games, then 3 places for 101-1000, etc.). This avoids bowlers looking "tied" when they may not be (see Nawa - 208.94 and Tanigawa - 208.88, which is the original reason I did the 2 decimal places in the average table)... I was not rounding off, I truncated the decimal to two places (as is normal for up to 100 games). From article: "4 Miki Nishimura 212.6 9,354 44". Math: 9354/44 = 212.59090909, properly truncated (not as accused above - "you were rounding off") to 212.59 and improperly rounded up to 212.6. Under  United States Bowling Congress  Rule 118a - Averages: How determined - "Extra pins or fractions must be disregarded in using averages for handicapping or classification purposes (my note: this means to calculate a bowler's handicap for a handicapped event, you must use a whole-number average, i.e. 219) and shall be reduced to a percentage of a pin only for the purpose of deciding individual position standings in a league (my note: "position standings" refers to the ranking of individual bowlers by average). So, when reduced to a percentage (decimal) of a pin, the decimal average is still truncated, and not rounded up - a bowler has not bowled that extra (rounded up) fraction of a pin, therefore the truncation. You wouldn't round up from 215.97 (my average last season) to 216 - you have to earn your average. This "discussion" has also led me to find out that my bowling league software is improperly rounding up some my league's bowler's averages - our 2nd and 3rd highest averages both showed as 234.43 last season, but were actually 21099/90 = 234.433 (yes, I know I have a 3rd dec. place here, see next sentence) and 24615/105 = 234.428. When comparing bowlers having a different amount of games bowled, there sometimes may be a (rare) need to go to a third (or more) decimal place, even with less than 100 games (example: 8707/50 = 174.14 and 12190/70 = 174.142).

If you were wondering about my bowling credentials, I am and have been the secretary/treasurer in a large (now 28 team) men's league since the 2000-01 season (and was president the previous three seasons) and have also been secretary/treasurer in four other leagues (seven total seasons), and I am also a director in my local bowling association http://www.facebook.com/GreenMountainUSBC and have been since 1998. What are your bowling credentials?

And in return, I shall ask: "Please don't go invoking calculation methods pertaining to bowling that go against normal and regular bowling convention."

Wrapping this up, answer me this, why did you not ask me about my changes before you reversed them? If you are going to undo an edit in that way and then proclaim you are correct without any real (bowling, in this case) references to back it up (just saying "that's the way they do it" is not good enough), you maybe want to come to this page first and alert the page's other editors, so maybe a terse discussion like this may be avoided in the future.

FYI, your work on this article is very good otherwise.

Thank you.

SkipperRipper (talk) 02:22, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Few things... First off, why are you quoting USBC regulations? I thought P-League was governed by the JPBA, therefore the JBC? JPBA also used the one decimal point rule, and so does the JBC. I've been to JPBA tournaments in-person. I've been to JBC tournaments in-person. I don't just watch them on TV like you do. I didn't even know the USBC was the standard for Wikipedia. English Wikipedia is not an American Wikipedia - it's an "English" Wikipedia. You're probably so nationalistic thinking that the USBC rules the world. Second, I have probably been a secretary for more leagues than you have. I've probably entered more PBA Tour tournaments than you have. I have probably thrown more 300-games than you have, and even threw one Japan. I've defeated the likes of Earl Anthony, Marshall Holman, and the like as a junior bowler. So, I don't see your point in your experience having to do with anything. You probably underestimate my age. As for rv'ing your changes in the averages, again this article is about P-League. I obtain the scores and statistics from P-League. If it uses one-digit decimals points, then this article will use it. This article is plain lucky to even have the total pinfall - that stuff isn't even published anywhere. I had to write a database application to calculate all of this. Otherwise, I would've just taken the 212.6 off that imagery and put that in the article. Would you have argued about the number of digits then? No, because you wouldn't have even known the pinfall if it weren't for me and the time I took in recording every game - every frame - every ball thrown in P-League. So why would I have to ask for your permission before the RV? Did you even look up all these facts about P-Leagues standards, and then force upon this article your USBC ideas before the rest of us before you made your edits? No, you didn't. Groink (talk) 09:33, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Rebuttal #2: P-League is a BOWLING article, and from the top of this page: "This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bowling, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Bowling on Wikipedia." Therefore, I would like to apply normal and regular bowling convention to it. Why is this so hard to understand?

Your quote: "You're probably so nationalistic thinking that the USBC rules the world." - That is ridiculous. I DISAGREE with a lot of what the USBC does - you'd be amazed at some of the things they've done. They've ruined bowling more than you think. I am "here" for bowlers not the USBC. I never said the USBC was the standard for Wikipedia, I used them as a reference in absence of any other reference. Last time I checked, Wikipedia relies heavily on (and requires) references.

And what does bowling a 300 or being a PBA member have to do with anything with STATISTICS and the way they're displayed? I wasn't asking for your permission to reverse my edits. I just thought it may be a good idea that you asked about my edits before reversing them. I am not forcing my USBC ideas on anyone. How about finding and posting a reference to a JBC / JPBA  rule  that applies to how averages are calculated and displayed/listed? Note that if the table did not have the total pins or games listed, I'd obviously have left the averages alone as their would have been no calculations possible.

Congrats on your 300s - and you can thank the USBC for making them really easy to obtain. Even I have one.

"my USBC ideas" ? - that's laughable...and I am appalled that you said that. SkipperRipper (talk) 16:40, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "I would like to apply normal and regular bowling convention to it. Why is this so hard to understand?" Study this sentence you wrote for a few minutes. "Normal" and "regular." That is so nationalistic! You're making an assumption that USBC regulations are "normal" and "regular", and therefore should apply to WikiProject Bowling. What about the Japanese Wikipedia? Does USBC regulations apply to bowling articles at that site? What about the British version of the USBC - they speak English. Does that organization apply to English Wikipedia? All the Wikipedia sites are one in the same - only the languages are different. English Wikipedia is an international Wikipedia, and covers all locations around the world that speak English. Therefore NO one's country organization's rules applies here - not the USBC, not the JPBA, and not the JBC. Because P-League is a TV show about bowling (and not an actual sanctioned tournament like the Japan Cup or U.S. Open,) the rules applied to this show will also apply to this Wikipedia article - both English and Japanese. By comparison, what you're saying is that a British TV show, when placed on English Wikipedia, has to comply to American English. And that, too is against Wikipedia policy. Again, P-League is a TV show about bowling. It has its own rules and regulations. Groink (talk) 01:50, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Active Players Table
With the assumption the following bowlers (except Nakatani) are all still active for every tournament (since 34), it seems a new "code(s)" is (are) needed in the case of a bowler who doesn't bowl in tournament, but not for being banned.

Examples:

Aino Kinjo - banned for 37, did not bowl 38 Ami Tanaka - same as Kinjo Masami Sato - banned for 36, did not bowl 37, 38 Yuka Kishida - banned for 34, did not bowl 35 Yuko Nakatani - banned for 33, did not bowl 34 — Preceding unsigned comment added by SkipperRipper (talk • contribs) 03:29, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Ideas:

"n" = "not active this tournament" "i" = "injured, did not bowl"

SkipperRipper (talk) 03:22, 22 September 2012 (UTC), SkipperRipper (talk) 03:33, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Removed average list
After reviewing the Wikipedia policies WP:CITE and WP:SOURCES, I've decided to remove the list. I created the list myself, using data collected from the P-League web site. P-League does not publish a listing of total pinfall for each bowler. And, I cannot consider myself a reliable source. Seeing I can't compare my calculated data to any other reliable source, my statistics should be disqualified. Therefore, my originally calculated statistics break Wikipedia policies regarding citing reliable sources. Groink (talk) 02:05, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think you should have deleted the table. [I'll post good reasons why in a few days...I have a little research to do.]

SkipperRipper (talk) 03:50, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * If you can find a web site, other than p-league.co.jp, that has the same totals that I had per WP:CITE, and it qualifies as a reliable second source under WP:SOURCES, then the table can be restored. But remember, it cannot be a primary source, per WP:SOURCES. Forums such as 2channel where P-League is discussed a lot are not reliable sources. You also cannot take the individual scores, add them together, and then add them here - that is WP:SELFPUB. And, you can't, for example, post the totals to your web site, and then try to pass the web site as a source - WP:SELFPUB says the editor cannot be the source, even if it is a second source. Groink (talk) 04:16, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * One other thing - the second source has to be frequently updated. Someone could have taken my totals, added it to his web site, and then it sits there forever. The totals have to change with every tournament that passes. Groink (talk) 04:24, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Question: If "we" (or any other editor, but I guess there aren't many for the P-League page!) maintained a [new] Wiki page using P-League's data (all games by all bowlers by tourney and match), would that work, and be OK by Wiki standards? (I know this is a lot of work...but I'd be down to do it.) --SkipperRipper (talk) 23:12, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:NOTMIRROR might be a guide to use. It basically says that Wikipedia should not mirror a data set that is already available on-line, even if the information on-line is in a different language (Japanese in this case.) Interesting enough, I actually found some scoring errors at the P-League web site when I was using it to build my database app, as the graphics people who manage the site are out of sync with the people who produce the videos. Groink (talk) 03:08, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Urara and Nao averages (?)
Ref'd YouTube link 40-C (at 5:10) shows Urara at 219 and YouTube link 40-EF (at 3:01) shows Nao at 220.6...and obv. those would (should?) be after T39. Note that Nao shot 698 (for three games) in T39, but your edit states "Oishi bowled in T39, but bowled bad enough to drop to 3rd." That 698 could not possibly have dropped her average.

In T40, Urara shot 739 for three, which would increase her ~1.22 to about 220.2_ (maybe enough to round to 220.3, but matters not). Nao shot 202, dropping her 0.40 (0.396) to 220.2...and if I had these as two-decimal place averages, I could exactly tell you what these came out to be. But either/any way, it appears this all happened in T40, unless the TV side is incorrect. --SkipperRipper (talk) 07:40, 18 February 2013 (UTC)


 * You're right! Made the correction. Groink (talk) 22:04, 18 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you, kind sir! --SkipperRipper (talk) 05:54, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Matches requiring a tiebreak.
I have three so far, and are these notable enough to add to the "Tournament Records" section (as a subsection)? There are the two roll-offs (237 and 257) and the one "last best score" (Mitsuki v. Miki N). Thanks. --SkipperRipper (talk) 03:18, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * But, ties are not records. They're occurances by sheer chance of having two people bowl the same score. Records are meant to be accomplishments - to be on top of everyone else. A record should stand for something positive, and a goal for everyone else to top. I don't strive to have my match end up in a tie, nor would I strive to get the lowest score. That's basically my train of thought on records. Groink (talk) 07:09, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand the ties are not records, but do they merit a paragraph of their own? (I should have maybe suggested a new section at first...I couldn't see any better place to put these - definitely not in the Tie-breaker description in "Current Format", so that is why I suggested the "records" section - could have been renamed to "Records and Miscellany".) On the striving part: that's what is different about bowling...you can't prevent what your opponent does (my quote: "Your best defense is filling frames."), and sometimes all you can do is tie. Low games happen and no one is trying to have a bad game, unless they are "sandbagging". I had a 117 last season (my worst in ~17 years, a very historical/notable score). There is no shame in a bad game and I learn more from those than the good ones! Thanks again. --SkipperRipper (talk) 18:22, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Ban system possibly out
There's some suspicion around the grapevine as to why in T42, there is no mention of the lowest scorer being banned from the next tournament. Higashi-san, who does the translations for the YouTube videos, mentioned this several times, and some fans in the forums are also talking about it. Also, some of the bowlers, such as Kinjo Aino-pro and Tanaka-pro have not returned to P-League despite them staying out the required number of tournaments. And, Katai-pro is out on maternity leave, and more likely for good. In short, P-League may be shrinking the overall membership, and quite possibly there might not be enough bowlers to rotate if the ban stays in-place. Because of this, I've temporarily commented out Matsunaga-pro's record of consecutive tournaments without being banned. If the ban is history, the record will be a thing of the past. When T43 comes up in a few weeks, we'll see if the low score bowlers actually return. If the ban system is still in-place when T43 starts up, I'll un-comment the record. Groink (talk) 10:53, 16 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Interesting to say the least. I didn't notice until now that the lowest score in each first round match of T42 was not "grayed out" at the end of the game on the "bracket" chart, like they were in all the previous tourneys with bans. If the bans are done away with, I guess we can move Hiromi's "record" to the [to be former(?)] "Banned" section. Thanks for the info. I also saw that Sato(h) is still a JPBA member, any word on her? --SkipperRipper (talk) 14:51, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

About edits in T42
Few things I wanted to mention. First, we're not sure if T42 exercised the banned system. I mentioned this earlier. For this reason, I removed the row for T42 in the banned list. Also, for each of the A-F matches, I used the "1" marker for both lower scores, and not the "▼" marker for the lowest score. And, I didn't touch the text in the "Banned from next tournament" section. Let's leave the section alone for now. We'll know when the A Match for T43 airs whether the banned system is in-place. And, when that moment comes, then we'll make the changes to the page accordingly. Also note that a new bowler has been added to the roster - Mai Funamoto. For now, I'm leaving Ayano Katai in the active list until the start of T43, but I'm pretty sure that she's history. I may even move Ami Tanaka out of the active list, as rumors are bouncing around that she won't return. Groink (talk) 08:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Didn't see your last section ("About edits in T42") here until...
...after I past-tensed everything in regards to the banned system (sorry)...if there is a [new] banned system (again), I'll re-edit the section when it happens - you know I'll be watching on Wednesday! You can leave Hiromi's non-ban record commented out (or even remove it). I wanted to make note that Nishimura had not been banned under the "current" (T31-41) system, and had only been a low scorer once previously. Is that notable, as no other bowlers are even close to these two for their consistency and the ability to avoid bad games.

One more - is Mai the latest audition winner?

Thanks for all the info as usual! --SkipperRipper (talk) 04:55, 7 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Mai didn't go through an audition. She was chosen by the producers, just like Sakurai Mariko earlier. As for the ban system, looks like it wasn't used in T42, but it will return in T43. I told my source I wouldn't go into any more detail about it until T43A is posted, but expect some BIG changes to the way P-League is structured - especially how bowlers in T43 were chosen for the 18-bowler line-up. So you could write something like "Banned (after previous "▼"; T21-42; T44-present)" Groink (talk) 07:33, 7 April 2013 (UTC)


 * No problem, and thanks again, will make appropriate changes Wednesday evening. (I have made a guess on how they will choose the 18 bowlers, let's see how close I am!) --SkipperRipper (talk) 16:03, 7 April 2013 (UTC)


 * First, I like the "play-in" format! All the edits are done, I hope I got everything, except for a new "Seasons" section (next). We may want to hold off on posting records until at least after each round? (So we don't have to post a spoiler alert in the edit summary, plus who reads the edit summaries anyway?) Also, excellent game by Mai. Is her having the best first game ever "notable enough" to be a record? --SkipperRipper (talk) 04:11, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Nah, a first game isn't notable. Groink (talk) 10:10, 11 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Did I miss anything? (I will re-do the Seasons section and rewrite "Current Format" sometime "soon"...)
 * Question clarification: I hope you understood "first game" as a bowler's debut, and not a round 1 game (we all know Mitsuki shot 267 "recently"). --SkipperRipper (talk) 15:27, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

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18-Team Bracket template created
J4lambert (talk) 19:17, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Table modified
I have edited the article to include the table of competitors from the Japanese version of the article in an up-to-date format (since tournament 43 to tournament 85). The table's translation has not yet been completed. Please fix the table so that it is all in English. Thank you. J4lambert (talk) 01:25, 15 June 2019 (UTC)