Talk:Boy Scouts of America membership controversies/References review

December 2009

 * As of December 25, 2009, sorted by publisher.

BSA

































 * Better to link directly to formes:
 * http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/524-406A.pdf
 * http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/524-501A.pdf
 * http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/524-501A.pdf




 * Winkler v. Chicago School Reform Board, et al., Evans v. Berkeley, discussed here
 * bad format

BSA Discrimination.org

 * Reliable source?
 * Permission to reprint articles?


























 * e.g. Merino v. BSA, Pool & Geller v. BSA, Welsh v. BSA, Seabourn v. BSA. See Discrimination in the BSA

ACLU

 * OK
 * OK











Scouting for All












Lambda Legal




US Government








News outlets


















Books










Other

 * Linked site has no content relate to reduced funding by the United Way
 * Other content on the linked page is dubious or out of date:
 * The nominal "Commander in Chief" of BSA is the President of the United States.
 * The term is "honorary president" and it is an honorary position


 * It receives direct federal funding through the Combined Federal Campaign. (Federal employees can get paid leave to fund-raise for CFC groups.)
 * CFC is a charity clearing house and allows federal employees to donate to any charity they desire similar to United Way or programs run by major corporations.


 * Its primary recruiters traditionally have been public school teachers.


 * It traditionally receives free rental from public schools. Half of all Scout units have been directly sponsored by public schools and school boards.
 * If the school allows access by any outside group, then they must allow access by the BSA, GSUSA and others. If the school charges rent or fees, the Scouts pay. Direct sponsorship by public schools was discontinued in 2005.


 * BSA uses local, state and federal buildings, parks and property free of charge or with major fee breaks, such as the rental for the token fee of $1.00 of Ft. Camp Hill, Virginia, for the Boy Scout annual Jamboree.
 * This implies that that the BSA as a whole has access when such access is part of agreements between the local council or units and the entities. Nationl will not longer use Fort A. P. Hill after 2010.


 * Boy Scouts has been recognized and advertised on U.S. postage stamps.
 * As have Girls Scouts, Camp Fire Girls, Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, Mardi Gras, dogs, cats, birds and more.


 * Another major sponsor is the PTA, a group set up to enhance the experiences of all students in the public schools.
 * This implies a monolithic PTA organization. Only 25% of parent-teacher-student organizations belong to the National Parent Teacher Association— all others are independent. The NPTA is a non-profit and not government subsidized.


 * Additionally, a significant percentage of BSA's overall funding is from United Way, whose own "Eligibility Criteria for Organizational Membership" (adopted by National Congress, November 30, 1972) reads: "Faithfully adheres to a policy of nondiscrimination with respect to age, sex, race, religion, and national origin in connection with the makeup of its governing body, committees, and staff and the persons whom it directly and indirectly serves." United Way of America advertises that "every group receiving funds ... maintains a policy of nondiscrimination."
 * Assumes a monolithic United Way; collecting and giving is an operation of the local United Way chapter.


 * Reliable source?
 * Better references:


 * Dubious source; online petition


 * OK

Robert Baden-Powell (1908) Scouting for Boys, quoted here
 * Dubious source; bad format

bad format
 * Boy Scouts of America et al. v. Dale (2000) Decision of the US Supreme Court


 * Boy Scouts of America et al. v. Dale,

Scout UK Equal Opportunity Policy for young people and for adults
 * Bad format
 * Better sources:
 * http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs185081.pdf
 * http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs500005.pdf

The Scout Association gives positive advice. It’s OK to be Gay and a Scout!Advice for young people
 * Bad format
 * Better sources:
 * http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs185081.pdf

May 19th 2010 Listing
(archived from main article talk page, after which the list on that page will be pared down into action items)

I'm not in favor of going 100% by the book for the source criteria in WP:VER, but many of the ones used her fail by hundreds of miles in the context that they are used...basically using editiorial/opinion/"rant" (primarily) web sites as sources of factual material. The use of these should be limited to illustrating the viewpoints of one side or another of a controversy. I was thinking that a start would be listing the ones of this type. To avoid too huge of changes, I'm proposing a "loose" / narrow review of only websites and on-line material, and where the cited material itself is clearly an opinion piece (i.e. not trying to evaluate the source). These are listed in order of appearance, only a few are numbered because the number can shift with additions or deletions. Dead Links and links with other such simple issues are also noted. Except for a few specialty situations, this reviewed the references, NOT the use of the references.


 * 1. "Boy Scouts & Public Funding....." ("Austin's Atheism Blog") But OK for it's current use.
 * "Discrimination in the BSA" Home page of "BSADiscrimination.org" But OK for it's current use.
 * "The War against the Boy Scouts" But OK for it's current use.
 * "Supreme Court Won't review...." Found note inside it with renewal idea....TRY YO RENEW
 * "Margaret Downey" Opinion piece misused as reference for facts
 * 10. "Scout Badge....." redirects to Wikipedia?
 * "BSA at a Glance" Dead Link
 * 18. "Boy Scouts of America Approved...." Significant text content in the reference
 * "BSA's Policy on Homosexuals" "BSADiscrimination.org" website used as a cite for factual material
 * 24. "Scouted Out" 1st link Appears dead/no content. 2nd link given is just the home page of motherJones.com (not a reference)
 * Jackson, Derrick..... Not reliable (& wrong) due to age, obsolete info
 * "Boston Minuteman Council....." BSADiscrimination.org web site again. Also used (only) as a cite for an OR statement that it doesn't establish
 * 28 Gary R Morella An opinion essay on a personal web site!
 * Dougherty, Jon Opinion piece, but OK for it's current use.
 * "Boy Scout Q&A" Dead Link
 * 34 "Boy Scouts of America Practices.... Basically just a home page of an organization...not a reference.
 * "United Way to Continue....." Somewhat mislabeled. This is a BSADiscrimination.org opinion web page which includes the text from the NY Times article.
 * 42 World Scouting Movement. BSADiscrimination.org combined opinion and fact web page. Maybe OK for current use.
 * 44 "BSA and Religious Belief" BSADiscriminaiton.org web page. Better than the others but does not support nor is it even related to the sentence that cites it. Probably needs moving to the previous sentence.
 * "Alternative Youth Groups" BSA Discrimination.org web page. Updated in 2009 and still left out one of the largest on the cited type ...BSA's LFL
 * "BSA and Girls In Scouting" BSADiscrimination.org web page. Terribly biased with huge omissions, omitting about 90% of the topic/cases/situaitons
 * 52 ".e.g Merino v BSA..." BSADiscrimination.org web page
 * 60 "Boy Scouts Say They're like KKK Youth" Archived Web page from advocacy web site, which obtained text from www.356gay.com (that given link is dead) which got it from AP writer. Appears to have been (mis)titled by that group, appears they have subsequently removed it. (direct link is dead, live link is to archiving site)
 * 65 Ian Urbina...." Dead Link
 * 72 "Congressman Frank" web page from advocacy web site, but content is just Congressman's letter.
 * "A dramatic protest..." web page from an advocacy web site, but part of the content is Philadelphia Inquirer news article.
 * "Memorandum Boy Scouts" Letter / web page by advocacy group, but suitable for its citation use.
 * "UCC Condemns..." BSADiscrimination.org web page, but sole content appears to be an objective 3rd party article.
 * "Secular Coalition...." Advocacy group web page, but suitable for it's current citation use.
 * "78 The Impact of the..." Web page by advocacy group used 5 times as a reference for facts. Appears factual.
 * "The Santa Barbara..." Advocacy group web page but appears factual.
 * "The Connecticut..." Advocacy group web page but appears factual.
 * 82 "Lerch..." Dead Link
 * Barnett, Robert...." Advocacy web site, partially outdated info.
 * "Jim Merrett..." BSADiscrimination web page consisting of Advocate Magazine Editorial/Article used as a cite for facts, but probably OK for the cited use.
 * 85 "Official Site...." Both links dead.
 * "About Us..." Advocacy group web site home page, but suitable for cited use.
 * "Dave Rice.." Advocacy group web page, but suitable for cited use. Archive link works, original link is dead, but site of original link is alive.
 * 89 "Boy Scouts...." Dead Link
 * "Alexander, Frist....." Link sort of dead.
 * "2001 Report..." Dead Link
 * "President Elect Obama..." Web page of advocacy group involved in the described action, but appears OK for the cited use.
 * "Scouting Legal Defense Fund..." Home page of advocacy group, but appears OK for the cited use.
 * "Help the Boy Scouts..." advocacy group web page, but appears OK for the cited use.
 * "Boy Scouts of America Membership...." Badly Biased, Badly Outdated Web page of an advocacy group used 7 times as a reference for factual matters. LFL numbers ommitted from summaries.
 * 111 "BSA Lose Parents" The is an editorial type web page of BSADiscriminaiton.org use twice as a reference for factual content.
 * "Saying no to Bias...." Web page of BSA Discriminaiton.org Mixture of factual and editorial content. Appears to have no content related to where it is cited. Same link with different name as #27 "Boston Minuteman Council..." Probably a citation error.
 * "Whistleblower..." BSADiscrimination.org web page, but appears to be mostly good third party article content.

May 21st 2010 completed list of action items
The "Action item" List was completed 5/21/10, and archived / copied here. Now the list on the main article talk page will be only open action items. North8000 (talk) 10:44, 21 May 2010 (UTC)


 * "Supreme Court Won't review...." Dead Link, had renewal idea inside of it but that one is blacklisted by Wiukipedia.    DELETE
 * "Margaret Downey" Opinion piece misused as reference for facts  DELETE
 * "BSA at a Glance" Dead Link   DELETE
 * 18. "Boy Scouts of America Approved...."  Significant text content in the reference  FIX
 * "BSA's Policy on Homosexuals" "BSADiscrimination.org" website used as a cite for factual material. This page has issues beyond  the usual BSADiscrimination.org issues. Including being (possibly deliberately) out of date. The newest material on the page is 17 years old, (current policies were set in 2004) the rest is older than that.   But this is the only reference supporting one statement / fact / quote that many folks would consider key. REPLACE TEXT AND REFERENCE WITH SOMETHING SIMILAR
 * Jackson, Derrick..... Not reliable (& wrong) due to age, obsolete info.  But used 3 times in places dependent on it. LEAVE FOR NOW, EVENTUALLY REPLACE
 * "Boston Minuteman Council....." BSADiscrimination.org web site again.  Also used (only) as a cite for an OR statement that it doesn't establish  DELETE
 * 28 Gary R Morella  An opinion essay on a personal web site! DELETE
 * "Boy Scout Q&A" Dead Link  DELETE
 * 34 "Boy Scouts of America Practices.... Basically just a home page of an organization...not a reference. Found noted article inside that site but it is just an editorial piece with no content related to or supporting the statement that cited it.  Had previous problem tags and notes. DELETE
 * 44 "BSA and Religious Belief"  BSADiscriminaiton.org web page.  Better than typical pages in this site. Used as a factual reference.
 * "Alternative Youth Groups" BSA Discrimination.org web page. Updated in 2009 and still left out one of the largest on the cited type ...BSA's LFL LEAVE FOR NOW, EVENTUALLY REPLACE, THEN DELETE.
 * "BSA and Girls In Scouting"  BSADiscrimination.org web page. Terribly biased with huge omissions, omitting about 90% of the topic/cases/situations LEAVE FOR NOW, EVENTUALLY REPLACE, THEN DELETE
 * 60 "Boy Scouts Say They're like KKK Youth" Archived Web page from advocacy web site, which obtained text from www.356gay.com (that given link is dead) which got it from AP writer. Title is web page title, not indication that it was by the writer. Appears to have been (mis)titled by that group. Searched the web site of that group and they have removed this (not just moved). Direct link is dead, live link is to archiving site.   DELETE
 * 65 Ian Urbina...." Dead Link  DELETE
 * 82 "Lerch..." Dead Link  DELETE
 * Barnett, Robert...." Advocacy web site, partially outdated (wrong) info. CHANGE TEXT THAT CITED IT TO CLARIFY
 * 85 "Official Site...." Both links dead.    DELETE
 * 89 "Boy Scouts...." Dead Link  DELETE
 * "Alexander, Frist....." Link sort of dead. Two quotes depend on it. TRY TO REPLACE
 * "2001 Report..." Dead Link DELETE
 * "Boy Scouts of America Membership...." Badly Biased, Badly Outdated Web page of an advocacy group used 7 times as a reference for factual matters. LFL numbers omitted from summaries. LEAVE FOR NOW. TRY TO REPLACE, THEN DELETE
 * 111 "BSA Lose Parents" The is an editorial type web page of BSADiscriminaiton.org used twice as a reference for factual content. DELETE
 * "Saying no to Bias...."   Web page of BSA Discriminaiton.org  Mixture of factual and editorial content. Appears to have no content related to where it is cited. Same (duplicate) link with different name as #27 "Boston Minuteman Council..." Probably a citation error.  So it is irrelevant to the use, and a duplication of another reference.  DELETE.

North8000 (talk) 10:44, 21 May 2010 (UTC) North8000 (talk) 12:58, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Recap of Still-Open Items from May 2010 Reference Review
(written 5/22/10, copied from main article discussion section on June 10th 2010)

The Open Reference Problems / Action Items are those that will be harder to fix. Five fail wp:VER reference criteria by a mile and one is dead. Three are the "BSADiscrimination.org" web site which has numerous issues discussed above. However, all of these remaining ones have significant content dependent on them and I did not feel comfortable simply deleting them.


 * "BSA's Policy on Homosexuals" "BSADiscrimination.org" website used as a cite for factual material. This page has issues beyond  the usual BSADiscrimination.org issues. Including being (possibly deliberately) out of date. The newest material on the page is 17 years old, (current policies were set in 2004) the rest is older than that.  But this is the only reference supporting one statement / fact / quote  that many folks would consider key. REPLACE TEXT AND REFERENCE WITH SOMETHING SIMILAR
 * Jackson, Derrick..... Not reliable (& wrong) due to age, obsolete info.  But used 3 times in places dependent on it. LEAVE FOR NOW, EVENTUALLY REPLACE
 * "Alternative Youth Groups" BSA Discrimination.org web page. Updated in 2009 and still left out one of the largest on the cited type ...BSA's LFL.   LEAVE FOR NOW, EVENTUALLY REPLACE, THEN DELETE.
 * "BSA and Girls In Scouting"  BSADiscrimination.org web page. Terribly biased with huge omissions, omitting about 90% of the topic/cases/situations LEAVE FOR NOW, EVENTUALLY REPLACE, THEN DELETE
 * "Alexander, Frist....." Link sort of dead. Two quotes depend on it. TRY TO REPLACE
 * "Boy Scouts of America Membership...." Badly Biased, Badly Outdated Web page of an advocacy group used 7 times as a reference for factual matters. LFL numbers ommitted from summaries. LEAVE FOR NOW. TRY TO REPLACE, THEN DELETE

North8000 (talk) 12:58, 14 June 2010 (UTC)