Talk:Bra/Archive 5

No bra
At the moment, wearing no bras have the following number of references:
 * ”How to Dress With No Bra". Wikihow. Retrieved 22 August 2013.
 * ”Going bra-less in vogue again for celebs". 4 November 2013. Retrieved 15 October 2015.
 * ”Yes, It's Okay to Go Braless". LingerieAddict. Retrieved 30 July 2013.
 * Brenoff, Ann (9 July 2012). "No Bra Day: I Spent My 20s Braless". Huffington Post. Retrieved 29 November 2012.
 * Erin Donnelly. "Trend Test Drive: Going Braless". Lemondrop.
 * Mejia, Lisette. "Guide to Going Braless". Women's Health Mag. Retrieved 31 July 2013.
 * How to Dress With No Bra". Retrieved 21 August 2013.
 * National No Bra Day". Retrieved 18 October 2015.
 * Frej, Willa (13 October 2015). "Why 'No Bra Day' Is So Problematic, As Explained By Twitter". Huffington Post. Retrieved 19 October 2015.
 * Derla, Katherine (14 October 2015). "#NoBraDay Wants To Raise Breast Cancer Awareness But Critics Say Event Is Purely Sexual". Retrieved 19 October 2015.
 * Saxena, Jaya. "The 5 types of reactions on Twitter about #NoBraDay". Retrieved 19 October 2015.
 * Weiss, Piper. "Today is National No Bra Day. But Why?". Yahoo News. Retrieved 18 October 2015.
 * ”National No Bra Day". Awareness Days. Retrieved 19 October 2015.
 * "National No Bra Day". Archived from the original on 10 August 2011. Retrieved 19 October 2015.
 * Barnes, Lauren. "International No Bra Day". Retrieved 19 October 2015.
 * ”July 9, 2012 is the Second Annual 'National No Bra Day'". 9 July 2012. Retrieved 14 September 2012.
 * Gray, Emma (9 July 2012). "No Bra Day: Women Tweet About The Merits Of Not Wearing Lingerie". Huffington Post. Retrieved 14 September 2012.
 * ”National No Bra Day gains support, boosts spirits". Archived from the original on 15 July 2012. Retrieved 14 September 2012.

….I might have missed some. This is hugely overdone. The part on going bra-less should fill an A-cup, not a JJ-cup! A reduction operation is desperately needed. (All this, while the world most-selling bra does not get a mention) Huldra (talk) 23:26, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Yep.146.1.1.1 (talk) 19:35, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I feel like removing each and every one of those "references". If women want to go without bras: fine! ...but many (most?) do not have the option.  And, females, (at least)  coming to this article expects to find information about...bras...not about going bra less.  Take it  to a new article called National No Bra Day, or whatever, if you like.  Presently it is massively WP:UNDUE in an article, supposedly  about bras.  We need to get the very unsexy, but very relevant stories, (like the above mentioned "Doreen" bra)  into the article instead.   Huldra (talk) 20:58, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm all for some major condensing of the content currently under the headings "Bralessness", "No Bra Day", "Opposition to bras" and "Miss America protest". Feel free to get in on the slashing, Huldra.
 * Peter Isotalo 21:05, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
 * For a start, I´m for removing the whole No Bra Day -paragraph. Just the start: "A "No Bra Day" has been observed in United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom since 2011"...it makes it sound as if it is the 4th of July, when in effect, it is almost unknown, (And what does "attended by 44,000 men and women, according to the official Facebook page" actually mean?  "Attended", in what way?) Huldra (talk) 20:18, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Just a comment on "most women do not have the option". That's a little strong. There are many reasons women wear bras, but there are certainly alternatives to bras when women feel immodest or pressured to contain their breast, and there's not necessarily a medical requirement. I've known women who prefer bras, and some who don't.  It's optional in most cases and the article should reflect that.  What is true is that there have been some social pressures in the past for women to contain their breasts, and some now, depending.  But that's a little different from "not an option".Mattnad (talk) 23:43, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
 * It is definitely an option for women who use, say size A, (Letting It All Hang Out: How I Made Peace With My Small Boobs) I would say that for women who have had a child or two, or women needing larger cups: it is virtually never an option: it is too painful. Of course, this is only my opinion (as your opinion is nothing more than your opinion). And this article should not be edited according to our opinions, it should be edited according to what WP:RS say. I normally edit in an area which demands impeccable sources: Palestinian history. 75- 90 % of the sources in this article would never, ever have been accepted there: they only represents blogs, etc.
 * But let us return to the so called "no bra day": this article from Slate, pretty much sums it up for me: "Encouraging women to show off their braless chests in the name of awareness won’t save anyone, but its message to breast cancer patients and survivors is clear: Your disease is about your secondary sex characteristics, not about you."   I still propose that we cut out the whole  section. (Btw, it reminds me of the FEMEN controversy) Huldra (talk) 23:10, 9 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for removing this section, Sarah. I still think the "Social norms" section is too large, though. Say, do we need a section about the Miss America protest, isn´t it enough to have a link to that page? Also, I think the ordering of the material could be better..now we have Susan Brownmiller opinion in one sentence, then Al-Shabaab in the next, then "Miss America protest" and "Feminist opinions".
 * A suggestion: what about listing *all* the feminist voices together in one section? We could do this historically, from the 1960s (was there any earlier?) and forward. Huldra (talk) 21:47, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * , I also added Doreen to the lead, using the Independent article you found.


 * Looking through this article some more, I don't think it should be a GA. There are lots of non-RS, quite a few surprising claims, some UNDUE problems, etc. SarahSV (talk) 21:51, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * , Thanks! And I fully agree with you, this article should not be GA. We should go through the article and weed out all those non-RS sources, Huldra (talk) 22:04, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * I just tried to copy edit, but didn't save because there was too much that I wanted to remove. It's hard to know what to do. SarahSV (talk) 01:13, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * That's the trouble I ran into when trying to review for GAR. The whole thing is just a damn mess. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:18, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Amy Winehouse, 2007
She is wearing two bras, is this worth mentioning or explaining ? Xb2u7Zjzc32 (talk) 02:32, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

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4 v 2
Whereas 4 sentences discuss purpose, only two discuss socialization. Therefore, 'purpose' seems a more appropriate title. Antamajnoon (talk) 22:02, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The section is clearly written discussing the socialisation aspect of wearing a bra even when it may actually be unneccessary. I'm not even sure how you've managed to come to the conclusion that the intentions of the sentences are about the purpose when they are litterally talking about how they don't always have one. Also that was a very disputable quantification. Ebonelm (talk) 22:34, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Moving all articles including "brassiere" in the title?
I just noticed that List of brassiere designs still uses the term – shouldn't it, and other articles using this old-fashioned term, be moved too for consistency? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:52, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Lede images
I'm reverting, per the anon editor. The drawn images are inherently better - better framed, better contrast and outline, bras front-on and centered in the shot, etc, etc. Way more illustrative, in other words. Its not always the case that live photos are inherently better

vs

As you can see from the images above, the drawing clearly show three main styles of bra. The images below do not. All three are underwired, two are the same style, and the center one is really badly fitting in the band. - A l is o n  ❤ 06:26, 12 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Drawn images – While having live images makes more sense to me in theory, I have to agree with Alison that at least in this case, the drawn images are much more illustrative. Graham (talk) 06:33, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Also - it should be noted that the person who reverted the anon editor (who left a perfectly good rationale, BTW), also happened to be the original uploader of the photographs. Jes' sayin' .... - A l is o n  ❤ 06:42, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "I agree with Allison, Graham (and Anon). There's an old discussion that led to consensus on this for these drawings.  The illustrations show a variety of styles clearly.  The photographs did not.Mattnad (talk) 09:11, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * These images were not part of the old discussion so it's not like we have som old consensus that we automatically ovverides every other suggestion. The issue back then was to replace sultry glamor shots of porn actors and rhe like.
 * I don't see how framing could be an issue here. The photographs are all of high quality and quite uniform. They just happen to be of three different people. What is it that the illustrations show that the photos don't?
 * And as for comments about being the uploader, stop making argumentative insinuations right now. They were created specifically to illustrate this type of article. There's no suspicious bias involved in that.
 * Peter Isotalo 13:20, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * For one thing, the illustrations show distinctly different designs. The illustrations are also clearer and consistent in what they depict including the shoulder straps across all three designs. The photos you have selected are not as varied or clear.  They are uniformly full cup, underwire designs. The captions you have chosen are unhelpful and prove the points we are making.  So what you call a "unpadded" bra is true of all of them, they are all underwire, and two are "Full cup lace bra"s - just different colors. Mattnad (talk) 14:52, 12 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Drawn. The drawings illustrate the technical differences between the styles. The photos are so uninformative that they may as well be captioned "three bras". In this particular case, since it's a reasonable presumption that readers already know what a bra is, the purpose of images is to illustrate technical detail not generic examples, and the drawings are far better than the photos at this. &#8209; Iridescent 23:09, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Drawn. For one thing; the middle picture says "Underwire bra". As Alison points out: all three pictured bras are underwired (most bras are today, except the smaller sizes). The drawings gives a much better picture, in this case. (Though I would have liked more models: say, strapless bras?) Huldra (talk) 23:18, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Drawn. The differences we're trying to illustrate are much clearer with the drawn images. Meters (talk) 23:34, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Why no mention of the long-term impact of bra on breasts?
A major reason for the popularity of wearing bra is women's concern to delay the ageing and sagging process of the breasts, which constant support is thought to delay. But some doubt this, and may even claim that support has the opposite effect, accelerating rather than delaying the ageing and sagging process. This topic would be well worth including in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:17B8:1000:D:107C:D5D1:2847:1A96 (talk) 11:42, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I think it was in there in the past, but the sources were poor/not reliable. While it's a topic of some debate, mostly it seems to be in the anti-bra, non-scientific opinion websphere in previous version and was taken out.  Pro-bra arguments were likewise removed for the same reason.Mattnad (talk) 12:35, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

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Nice article
I've been creating articles on breastfeeding and such. I noticed that there is not information on nursing bras in this article. Does anyone mind if I add it? oops, found it.Barbara (WVS) ✐   ✉  23:58, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Bust bodice
The redirects and, which currently target this article, have been nominated for deletion at Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 September 15. Input from editors with knowledge of this subject area would be most welcome in the linked discussion. Thryduulf (talk) 10:02, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

etymological history
when did the short form come into use, andwhen did it essentially replace the long form? 37.99.46.135 (talk) 01:48, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

recent addition
The recent additions by User:Nsuggs619 goes like this:

"sujetador– Spanish (from sujetar, to hold)" −	"“BH”– what Germans, Swedes, Danes and Dutch call the BRA, and   it’s an acronym for büstenhalter, bysthållare, brysteholdere and bustehouder (bust-holder)"

The considered bra was worn by the accent Greece around 8th century B.C. Women of this time used wrap a band of wool or linen across their breast mostly to secure during athletic activities. During the Ming Dynasty their for of bras were cloth with cups and straps over their shoulders called a dudou or the "belly cover." Shortly after the Ancient Greeks adopted the first bra, the development of the corset came a long. It was commonly worn and seen on wealthy women during its time period. During this time period it was commonly to see that the bras and corsets were made out of metals which had the negative side effect of disturbing your breathing cycle and the alignment of your spine (back pains). The French refereed to the word brassiere as a baby vest, left-belt, under bodies, and harness. The word originated braciere meaning "arm protector" it resembles the military breast plate used for war. In 1917 ( Women were asked by the U.S. was industries to stop buying and wearing corsets. The metal in the corsets were able to be used for ammunition and military supplies because of these actions the modern day bar emerged. Caresse Crosby introduced the first bra in the U.S. in 1914. This happened due to her corset showing through her gown. She sewed two handkerchiefs and pink ribbon together to make the first bra or brassiere. Econmics of bras Since the end of the corsets the bra industry turned into a multi-billion dollar affair. Fashion then and now At first the bra was only worn because of its function now it is now very fashionable and elegant. For example, Victoria secret shifted the normal shape of the bra to then next level by making it more fashionable promoting different designs, shapes, and sizes. Women today care about how their bras look which is keeping these types of stores in business.

Health Concerns Recently within society there has been some speculations behind bras and their possible contributions to health related concerns. Having been researched by plenty of scientists and medical analysts, the relation of the bra and the health of an individual has been linked to the formation of breast cancer. The specific bra in question is the underwire bra, which most women tend to wear everyday. According to the authors of the novel, "Dressed to Kill", Singer and Grismaijer come to a conclusion that women who wear underwire bras more than 12 hours within a day have a higher chance of developing breast cancer within the future [1]. The support this conclusion by stating that the bra constricts upon the lymph nodes located within the breast tissue, which causes toxins to build up in these lymph nodes, increasing the risk of cancer [2]. This hypothesis which was formulated by this authors turned out to be false, due to the American Cancer Society concluding there is no relation to the underwire bra causing an increase to breast cancer. According to the American Cancer Society, the lymph nodes are in constant contact with the bodily secretions making the nodes large and irritated at times, unlinked to cancer [3]. ............ Throughout generations humans have deemed the breasts a woman has is sexual in nature, requiring a coverage to be placed upon them in a socialized setting. Since the breast itself is seen as a sexualized concept the nipple upon the breast can be seen as even more of a sexualized negative object on a woman's chest. Behind the nipple stems plenty of controversy, whether it is suitable to be shown in public or if its too inappropriate for people within a social surrounding. All of this which is placed upon the breast and the nipple is defined as a gender normative concept. According to Kiely, "The rules, norms, and laws that disproportionately affect one gender in society are inevitably shaped by this power structure, their values, attitudes, and ideas of ‘acceptable sexuality’" [5]. The influence of other values and ideas about the breast/nipple can determine a woman's perspective of what seems normal within society to avoid being seen as an outcast. Kiely then describes within her article of how this gender norm can be observed in younger women, "In capitalist, western society women have been socialized from a young age into wearing certain clothes sometimes clothes that physically restrict their bodies" [6]. An example of this may be how bras become a fascination to young girls approaching the teenage years of their lives but they do not understand the bra restricts them from having respect from others, power within a system, and restricts their voice. Rather the men within the society have everything the woman strives to have within her life but is often limited due to the bra upon her chest. The author of the article conducted an experiment that for a certain period of time she would stop wearing a bra to see how she felt and how others felt around her. From the experiment she felt as if she were more comfortable by not being constricted by a bra but she also has an insecure felling placed upon her believing others were seeing her as more sexual and as if her nipples were of a distraction [7]. From her findings it can be shown that societal values, ideologies, and beliefs truly have an influence on how women perceive their breasts.

............... Feminist Movements Involving the Bra In a recent society, it has been observed that the feminists have been taking a stand against gender inequality by incorporating the bra. The name of this movement within recent history is the "Free the Nipple" movement. The bra is a symbol which has been placed upon women and has been expected for women to take part in, these women are taking the stand by fighting against this normative concept. Men are allowed to show off their bare chests in a social environment but women are not allowed since it is seen as socially unacceptable. According to Kaitlyb Juivk, an activist in this movement, states “Our movement is about regaining freedom and making a women’s choice to wear a bra, or to not wear a bra, her own. To take things a little further, we are working towards the de-sexualization of the female body.” [4] http://www.center4research.org/can-wearing-bra-cause-breast-cancer/ http://www.center4research.org/can-wearing-bra-cause-breast-cancer/ http://www.center4research.org/can-wearing-bra-cause-breast-cancer/ https://globalnews.ca/news/2837056/why-more-women-are-freeing-their-breasts-by-going-braless/ http://thecircular.org/bras-thing-bodies/ http://thecircular.org/bras-thing-bodies/ http://thecircular.org/bras-thing-bodies/

etc, etc

IMO, this is simply not good enough. EG, we need not give more advertisements to that rubbish book, "Dressed to Kill", for a start, Huldra (talk) 23:27, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and there are articles about bras in 88 languages on wiki, according wikidata, to mention what it is called in some languages (but not others) makes no sense to me, Huldra (talk) 23:31, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Yep. I concur on both points - A l is o n  ❤ 03:10, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Bra size
Which is the largest size in bra??? Drupath raj (talk) 03:39, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Disconnected from reality
If the controversy about whether the bra causes or prevents breast sag has been "settled", it is an important enough issue to deserve its own section. I see virtually nothing about it (one vague sentence actually). Nursing bras not only aid in breastfeeding but they contain absorbants which prevent leaking breasts from wetting and possibly staining other clothes. Surely that deserves a mention. There is a single (again vague) sentence about medical reasons for using one. And again it seems obvious to me that that subject deserves more here. There is an enormous amount of rubbish about what some author(ess) wrote. Unless these authors were historically notable, it should be removed. I see some discussion about modern (Western) fashion preferring large breasts, but see nothing discussing cleavage and how various bras, especially the push-up and padded bras create that. I see nothing about how bras can protect sensitive nipples - or is that simply not true? I see nothing about how bras may display the nipple. Or hide them, especially when tumescent. Surely these both are notable functions of the item. I also see no mention of their other uses - eg. as a purse or storage space. It seems to be assumed that the reader of this article understands that for most women, use of the bra provides no health or fitness benefits. First, that's a bad assumption. Second, I sure don't know if it's true, especially athletic bras. Finally, many (most?) bras are uncomfortably hot and sweaty, aren't they? This subject and modern wicking fabrics also seems to have been ignored here.174.130.70.44 (talk) 10:49, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Why don't you add all the good points you mentioned (◍•ᴗ•◍)❤ NiceTandeVik (talk) 18:16, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Adding a photo
Hello, I would like to add to the article but the filter does not allow that. I have added it to french article without problem. As suggested on false postives filter reports page I ask here if this is a problem for someone to add it. Thanks beforehand. YesWeCanForever (talk) 05:26, 25 April 2020 (UTC)