Talk:Brabant killers

CCC
Removed the reference to the CCC. The CCC (Cellules Communistes Combattantes, or Fighting Communist Cells) were a left-wing terrorist organisation with no relation to the Nijvel gang though both were active in the same time frame (CCC from 10/84 to 12/85, Nijvel gang from 3/82 to 11/85). Contrary to the unsolved Nijvel gang crimes, the CCC case was solved when their leaders were arrested in december 1985 and trialed later. BertK 14:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Nijvel gang?
Why a Dutch name for a French speaking city? Isn't Nijvel known as Nivelles in English? ---moyogo 22:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Some media uses Nijvel gang others like NY Times use "Nivelles gang". --moyogo 22:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Because the French variant of the "nivelles gang" simply does not exist. They prefer "les tueurs du brabant-wallon" and not de "bande de nivelles". It is hence normal that the English world, while translating the name, had the choice between "Nijvel Gang" and "the killers of walloon-brabant". They chose to maintain the term "gang" and therefor adopted "Nijvel Gang". User:Berchemboy 30 june 2006

Militants & Gladio
Intangible, you yourself wrote : "The gang became linked to the neo-Nazi organization Westland New Post which aimed to destabilize the Belgian society and provoke an outrage of civil unrest in order "to establish a government lead by ultra-conservatives of the Parti Social-Chrétien." You say that Gladio became a possibility only six years after; what do you mean? This goal (provoking an outrage of civil unrest, etc.) was the one followed in Italy by the strategy of tension. That's called Gladio. Gladio was behind Italy's strategy of tension. The Brabant massacres, linked to the Westland New Post & SDRA-8, is thus linked to Gladio. What else are you saying when you wrote about the links between Westland NP and the Belgian gendarmerie? Tazmaniacs 16:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That the main motive of Gladio and the strategy of tension stems from the 1990s, while the militant involvement is connected to conspiracies from even the early 1970s. They should be dealt with differently. Since they are part of a different time period, and deal with different people. Intangible 17:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * ? The main motive of Gladio stems from the 1990s? Wasn't it a Cold War thing? And wasn't it supposed to be disbanded in 1990? Anyway, we're dealing here with the Brabant massacres, committed in the early 1980s. They've been linked to far right and Belgian security forces, among which the SDRA-8, which is the name of the Belgian stay-behind. Please explain yourself, I'm having trouble understanding you. Why do you say that the "main motive of Gladio [which one are you talking about? The Belgian gladio, I presume] and the strategy of tension [again, what do you refer to, not Italy I presume] stems from the 1990s"? Tazmaniacs 18:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The first parliamentary inquiry into the Nijvel gang stems from 1988. The first inquiry into Gladio stems from 1991. Intangible 19:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Isn't the whole Gladio connection a little far fetched? Why would a CIA backed group want to destabilize a US ally? And aren't there better ways to do that than random armed robberies?


 * Perhaps it could be merged with militants. There appears to be no question that in the 1992 BBC documentary Timewatch: Gladio, Libert the 2nd in command of  Westland New Post  admitted that on the group was assigned an exercise for surveilling supermarkets of the same chain that were raided.Overagainst (talk) 11:53, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Comment on brand-names
(About to write "Delhaize" or not, about to write "Colruyt" or not,about to write "G.B." or not,about to write "Dekaise" or not ,about to mention the names(brandnames ?)of the shops or the places where holdups and sometimes(most of the times in those cases) killings happened in Belgium and all the names of the facts attributed to certain persons (see history of this article)

--> this discussion has been transfered from the talk page of user Berchemboy <--)

Dear Berchemboy,please,could you tell me why did you take the words "Delhaize" out off the text of the Nijvel Gang.Thank you. A reader.23:29 10/10/2006

Because I don't find the brand of the supermarket chain relevant in the article. If we add the name of the supermarket to the article, we also have to add the names of all the other stores and restaurants the Nijvel Gang held up. This would make the article too large and far more difficult to read. Details are not always a blessing for such an article. Berchemboy 14:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Berchemboy,

thank you for the answer. I don't know if the words "Delhaize" is relevant for you or not. But y see that you are writing:"(the supermarket brand name is irrelevant)"

and " (removing unnecessary info (second time!))".

Y am agree with you on one point,"we also have to add the names of all the other....",(y say:) .... places those persons held up.

But y don't think that "this" (writing the names)"would make the article too large and far more difficult to read"(y don't know all those names, but y would like to know them.Wouldn't mind?Thank you very much.)

If you read the article written by miss Patricia Finné,you'll see(For sure, you already did,didn't you?),she is asking for even small things,didn't she?

So,maybe Delhaize or Colruyt or other names are details for you ,but are they details for the case itself?Are they?

Yes?

A reader 20:32 wednesday 11.10.2006

Yes they are! What is the difference between the hold-up of a Delhaize-supermarket or a Colruyt-supermarket? Is it relevant in the investigation? Is there a different penalty? A different degree of crime? No, there isn't. The brand name - whether you like it or not - is irrelevant. Perhaps, it can also be useful to registrate as a user. Berchemboy 11:43, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Berchemboy,thank you for your answer, this is an extract of a blog of Miss Patricia Finné,in french,because y didn't find back the english version,please, read this,y don't know if you allready did,sorry for that ,and she wrote:

"RAISON POUR

LAQUELLE J'IMPLORE TOUTE PERSONNE QUI

POURRAIT DETENIR UNE INFORMATION

AUSSI MINIME SOIT-ELLE

DE ME CONTACTER VIA MON BLOG.

J'INSISTE SUR LE FAIT QUE CETTE

DEMARCHE EST FAITE A TITRE PERSONNEL DANS LE BESOIN DE

CONNAITRE LA VERITE OU EN TOUS LES CAS UNE PARTIE.

J'AI BESOIN DE TEMOIGNAGES ET NON PAS D'AVIS SUR CETTE AFFAIRE ",

so, she is begging for an information,even if the information is very small:"aussi minime soit-elle".

A reader.thursday 12/10/2006 23,50

Dear Berchemboy,

You asked : "What is the difference between the hold-up of a

Delhaize-supermarket or a Colruyt-supermarket?"'

My answer to that question is :I don't know if there is a

difference "... between the hold-up of a Delhaize-supermarket

or a Colruyt-supermarket?".

That is why I don't know

the difference between the hold-up of a Delhaize-supermarket

or a Colruyt-supermarket.

Do you know if there is a difference between the hold-up of

a Delhaize-supermarket or a Colruyt-supermarket?

Yes?No?

I don't.

You also asked :"Is it relevant in the investigation?".

Do you know if it is relevant in the investigation ?

Yes?No?

I don't know.No.I really don't know.

(y supose that you'r speaking about to mention or not the brandname Delhaize or not)

A reader ,please don't be offended ,this is not my intention.

Belgium.22:46 21/10/2006

---

I am still convinced that the supermarket brand name is unnecesary information and thus irrelevant. In the future, please discuss this topic on the talk-page of the article. Berchemboy 09:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

--

I agree that supermarket brand names are unnecessary especially when there is doubt about the factuality on it. I think it ugly how it is now a segment filled with double question marks. If it is considered relevant, which I think not, discussion on what the brands are exactly should be conducted here. IIVeaa (talk) 10:36, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Anniversary
Thursday 09/11/2006,it is the twenty first anniversary of a fact,eight people were killed by three people armed with fireweapons in a DELHAIZE,in Aalst ,in Belgium,the saturday nine of november 1985.

Communes
Braine l'Alleud,Overijse and Aalst are communes of Belgium. Belgium has an history,and Braine l'Alleud,Overijse and Aalst have a commun history with Belgium,during a few decades,at least from september 1830. You may read on the column of congress"SEPTEMBER 1830". Just under,you also may read "september 1830" and "november 1830",about the"GOUVERNEMENT PROVISOIRE"(provisional governement)and about the"CONGRES NATIONAL"(national congress). (They were a few differents "gouvernements provisoires"(provisionals governements)during the month of september 1830). One of them occured the 26/09/1830. It is also written on the wall of the belgian parliament:(26/09/1830),then,for the congress(10/11/1830),then for the independance(18/11/1830),then following geographically the king's speech(21/07/1831),then for the constitution (07/02/1831),then for mister Surlet de Chokier(25/02/1831),then for the election of the king(04/06/1831). For the NATIONAL CONGRESS,it occured the 10/11/1830. A reader .22:58 09/11/2006.Thursday.

Nijvel Gang?
Possible Motives:


 * A.Destabilization of european countries ?:("déstabilisation des Etats d'Europe Occidentale".)

Some detectives,(belgian policemen),Balfroid,Bihay,Dussart made reports with mention of a possible destabilization of european countries. You may read this, in french,in a nice part of a report (written by Balfroid,Bihay,Dussart )on the first page of the book"L'enquête,20 ans de déstabilisation en Belgique",written by Hugo Gijsels. (...)(r.b.m.) (dif.to read the text.)

"euillez trouver ci-joint une synthèse de pistes suivies dans le cadre de l'enquête faisant l'objet du dossier 26..."

(difficulty to read the text)

".../12 de monsieur le juge d'instruction SCHLICKER à NIVELLES."

"Les recherches ont été faites en considérant le fait que l'agression aurait été commanditée,à la base,par une organisation internationale,dans le cadre d'actions visant à la déstabilisation des Etats d'Europe Occidentale. Cette synthèse reflète la situation"

(...text dif.to read)

"à la date du"

(the text is hidden) + You may read a few more text,on that page:http://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=4&u=10031513 + +

+ +
 * B.Part of a mondial plot? Now,some people are saying it could be part of a mondial plot.(see the book of Patrick Henderickx and Patrice Debruyne,"Les protocoles de Sion".)


 * C.Some people said ,it could be for the money.' "

Tell me what's wrong please?

--81.240.253.15 22:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll tell you what's wrong: first, don't stalk me. Second, I deleted your text for the simple reason that it does not fit Wikipedia format. Third, I asked you if you read the book, because obviously you've only read the cover, which is not really much to add something here. If you provide yourself the book, I'm sure you'll have interesting things to edit. It is nice to be enthusiast about it and all, but we can't just write whatever we grab on a book cover. PS: I changed the subsection title, because again, the debate is not between me and you, but between any users of this page. I am not that interesting, cheers :) ! Tazmaniacs

--

Singular, plural
The first sentence of the article makes clear that it is not known if it was one group, or severals. Besides, the French term is at the plural (les tueurs). No need to mess up the rest of the article for that, as the article makes clear that the group has not been identified, and that they were various members. One group, two groups, three groups? The focus is on the killings, not on the group(s) who have not been identified. Tazmaniacs

-

Singular ?, plural ? I don't know.
But thanks for your answer.

Maybe someone has to create a new article with a new name to go further

with those differents facts.

One name for each fact.

By exemple:

A killing (n°1(?/?3)) in Delhaize, BRAINE L'ALLEUD 27/09/1985 s

belgium

"[['''A killing(n°2(?/?3)) in a Delhaize, OVERIJSE , europe , brabant,

belgium, 27/09/1985''']]"

"[['''A killing(n°3(?/?3)) in a Delhaize, AALST , europe , ,

belgium,27/09/1985''']]"

What do you think about this proposal ?

A reader.Belgium.--213.49.135.135 14:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Gladio, again
Isn't the whole Gladio connection a little far fetched? Why would a CIA backed group want to destabilize a US ally? And aren't there better ways to do that than random armed robberies?
 * I think the motive is not necessary and the link is the secret services tolerated  an underground Nazi para military  group connected to Gladio, at least by seeing itself as an auxiliary anti communist army like Gladio.  The surveillance that the second in command of Westland New Post admitted to the BBC had been ordered on the gangs targets is pretty good evidence. A couple who were allegedly surveilled by Westland new Post were later murdered and one proven perpetrator of that double murder was a WNP member, so was his co-accused  who got a not guilty at trial, but was later convicted of another separate double murder of diamond merchants.


 * The Westland New Post second in command was arrested and questioned in 2014, and the reports on that arrest prove the official investigators on the case who know more that anyone here think have said that a member of WNP is thought to be in on the gangs robberies. It doesn't necessarily follow that anyone in authority in Belgium or the CIA gave the order for the attacks. Just a few contacts and an actual government security expert giving them lectures (in a attempt to infiltrate WNP supposedly) may have fed the fantasies of the leader and be exageratedly interpreted as official approval by the boss of WNP, who may not have actually intended the surveillance as anything more than an exercise for his pathetic group. Behind-the-lines unit's training can include tasks such as coming up with a plan for a robbery (read years ago about Special Air Service training including such tasks). It's a thought exercise to develop the ability to plan actions and operate in enemy territory, as members of Gladio would have been after a Soviet occupation. Someone very unstable and violent (and there is such a person known to have been in WNP) could  have been precipitated by the Gladio-style training into feeding such tactics and plans into a gang, which could have other psychopaths in it and take on a momentum as they deleloped a taste for killing. The ex WNP man may have only been in on the crimes at the beginning.Overagainst (talk) 12:07, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 1 one external link on Brabant killers. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070214065921/http://tueriesdubrabant.be.cx:80/ to http://tueriesdubrabant.be.cx

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 00:30, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Brabant killers. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060623222207/http://www.comiteri.be/index_en.html to http://www.comiteri.be/index_en.html
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://tueriesdubrabant.be.cx/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 08:22, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Brabant killers. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150923230231/http://www.dekamer.be/kvvcr/showpage.cfm?section=flwb&language=fr&rightmenu=right&cfm=%2Fsite%2Fwwwcfm%2Fflwb%2Fflwbn.cfm%3Flang%3DN&legislat=49&dossierID=0573 to http://www.dekamer.be/kvvcr/showpage.cfm?section=flwb&language=fr&rightmenu=right&cfm=%2Fsite%2Fwwwcfm%2Fflwb%2Fflwbn.cfm%3Flang%3DN&legislat=49&dossierID=0573
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150923230224/http://www.dekamer.be/kvvcr/showpage.cfm?section=flwb&language=fr&rightmenu=right&cfm=%2Fsite%2Fwwwcfm%2Fflwb%2Fflwbn.cfm%3Flang%3DF&legislat=47&dossierID=0059 to http://www.dekamer.be/kvvcr/showpage.cfm?section=flwb&language=fr&rightmenu=right&cfm=%2Fsite%2Fwwwcfm%2Fflwb%2Fflwbn.cfm%3Flang%3DF&legislat=47&dossierID=0059

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 19:12, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Why 'Nijvel'?
The first sentence says that they are named the "Nijvel Gang" in Dutch-speaking media. The article is in Category:Nivelles. Yet Nijvel/Nivelles is not mentioned once in the article apart from that first sentence! Why are they called that? Were any of the crimes carried out in Nijvel/Nivelles, and if so which ones? Surely some explanation is in order? 2001:BB6:4713:4858:4040:4569:F26E:D81B (talk) 10:11, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Books
Anyone know of any English language books on this case? Jacksonpm23 (talk) 03:55, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Media - new series
see https://www.tvmaze.com/shows/55210/1985 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.47.151.13 (talk) 21:53, 4 July 2023 (UTC)