Talk:Brahma Kumaris/Archive 1

B.K.s beware !
This is a polite warning to followers of Brahma Kumari Raja Yoga ...


 * Beware, this is not an advert for Brahma Kumari Raja Yoga. This is an objective definition of you and your religion.

If you are new to Raja Yoga and unsure of what is being written here, please check with your senior sister for accuracy before removing or editing facts.

Thank you.

Quick Vandalism list
Quick list of IP's and ID's of folks that just wipe out the article completely or do valdalism to the article.TalkAbout 16:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC) 69.87.194.63, 69.87.203.179,  213.17.203.186, 58.224.213.106, 139.149.1.203
 * Brahma Kumaris, Kaith, Riveros11, Anbu400, Karunabk

BK Karuna
Dear Karunabk,

Is this you below?

BK Karuna, Chief of Multimedia, BrahmaKumaris 

If so Wikipedia is to provide impartial information not public relation for the organization. Please confirm if this is indeed you and if so please refrain from vandalism of the wiki article. I only provided the above as it is public information on the main BK site. Regards/PEACE TalkAbout 22:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Complaint by 72.91.28.223
Is it not "vandalism" to write something which is not true and to try to destroy the reputation of an organization? Perhaps I should write an article about, you "Talkabout" and consider it vandalism every time you make a change... that could work...but is there something good to "talk about" about "talkabout"? There must be.


 * Dear 72.91.28.223,

Please let me explain the quick list. These are folks that removed whole sections of the article. That is not considered a change. As per the Personal affront to me....please do visit my page (article on me) in the discussion section. If you want to have a go at me for monitoring the page, that speaks volumes!

Now, please point out the sections that are not true and please cite how "I" am trying to destroy the reputation of an organization. Quoting 72.91.28.223"but is there something good to "talk about" about "talkabout"? There must be" Well, by BK standards I am a Shudra, so I imagine nothing you post would be positive. OOOps did I just let another cat out of the bag? Caste system within the BKs?!? PEACETalkAbout 21:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikimedia
MEDIA FYI
 * Library of Congress, Holocaust Museum negotiate with Wikimedia

Contributors wanted
But please join the discussion page before making your edits. Outright vandalism will be reported.


 * 87.80.123.22
 * 195.82.106.244
 * Brahmakumaris.info

I will leave you THREE to manage the wiki page. Today being XBKChat’s last day, I think it is also a good departure day for me. Do take care in being polite to others if you want them to take an interest in the wikipedia page and if indeed you seek contributors.

The page looks pretty much complete in its present form and shows many hours of work invested in it by caring people.

Do keep in mind that one catches more bees with honey even in the course of a discussion as it provides for an open mind. PEACETalkAbout 18:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Destruction
This article refers to the " destruction of the World " meaning the similar to understanding most Christians have of Armageddon or modern day Christian evanglists call " end times ". It is referred to by the BKWSU as " Destruction " and so that is the term used here, as clarified in the article. It does not mean the destruction of the planet Earth. 195.82.106.244 22:45, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality of this information
NPOV dispute 70.119.13.124 14:14, 3 April 2006 (UTC) It is evident that the person who originated this article does not sympathize with Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University. Reasons:

1)There is no need to add a heading such as B.K.s beware! if the person truly thought this article was written in good faith and neutral.

2)There are links which rather than further explaining about the subject matter: Brahma Kumaris, those links basically point to groups that are non Brahma Kumaris related. It is sort of trying to explain Christianity by pointing to links were non-christian believers or supporters express their opinions.

3)There is obvious misinformation about the knowledge, practices and the meaning of "spiritual university." Most of the information given is just the experience of the writer (negative experience) with perhaps a particular group. That cannot be considered "unbias" or "neutral."

4)Even when referring to the word "Destruction" there is an obvious misinformation. The writer cannot take Christianity as the "measuring stick" in order to understand a new movement like Brahma Kumaris. If the writer looks up in the dictionary the world destruction, it means:an event (or the result of an event) that completely destroys something also: a final state; That is not the word to use when someone is aware that matter cannot be created neither destroyed (first law of thermodynamics)and that according to BK knowledge the world will continue on as it always has, thus there is no destruction but rather transformation. To say "I am using destruction as the Christians use it: Armagedon" is not writing in a neutral language but rather biased and opinionated languaage. 5) It would be good to know what the author believes gives him/her authority to write about an institution.This should be checked by WIKIPEDIA, otherwise; this site is merely a place to voice someone's opinion.

6) Religion is an experience. If you don't have the experience you will think that a particular faith is "worthless." Usually, the thought could not be "it was worthless for me" and thus there may be some others that may think the same and a group appears. Nevertheless, when writing an article for an "encyclopedia" these matters are overlooked. When a non-believer or non-supporter has "the pen" to write first, it would be very hard to come up to a "middle way." Perhaps something overlooked by WIKIPEDIA. In th meantime, an article such as this one may be hurting the image of an institution, thus assuring that the "non-believer" objective is attained.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.13.124 (talk • contribs)


 * In response ;


 * 1)There is no need to add a heading such as B.K.s beware!
 * The above heading was added in response to a B.K.W.S.U. supporter who more than once re-wrote the article to read like an advert for the organization. This is not the purpose of the Wikipedia
 * 2)There are links which ... point to groups that are non Brahma Kumaris related.
 * By which you mean the links to ex-Brahma Kumari or Prajapita Brahma Kumari websites? I think that you will find both have relationships with the B.K.W.S.U., are fair sources of information supporting the article and provide an NPOV element.
 * 3)There is obvious misinformation about the knowledge
 * Well, be specific here and discussion in detail. Misinformation or information that the B.K.W.S.U. would rather not have made public?
 * 4)Even when referring to the word "Destruction" there is an obvious misinformation.
 * There is a difference between "Destruction" and ' misinfomation '. The B.K. meaning of "Destruction" has been clarified on the page following your comments. If you are a practising B.K. or ex-B.K. you will know fine that  "Destruction" is the word that the B.K.W.S.U. generally uses for the allegedly soon to come Armageddon. It may not suit your nor the B.K.'s P.R. purposes for this to be made widely public but it is referred to as such in the B.K.W.S.U. and the referenced literature.
 * Quote from the BrahmaKumaris.com HQ's own website, " [Founder] Dada witnessed in his vision the destruction ... no escape. The wail of horror, the rivers of blood and pus, the panic and the desperation, and then, the final death. The silent aftermath. Dada, who had never shed a tear, was weeping now. “Oh, God, please stop this, please stop this!” he cried. “What a terrible destruction! "
 * 5)what [gives] the author authority to write about an institution.
 * A browser and an internet connection. Welcome to the Wikipedia ...
 * 6) Religion is an experience.
 * Religion, and religious experience is also based on doctrine and dogma. Here we have a fairly consclusive, exhaustive and objective reporting of the B.K.W.S.U. doctrine, dogma and practises. By all means, make your suggestions, and provide references, for which items are incorrect but appreciate that the Wiki is not an advert for your sect.
 * 195.82.106.244 16:09, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

your article is not neutral
NPOV dispute

In response:

1)ANSW: So by doing that you expect that no one will re-write it? are you afraid? what is your interest in defaming BK?

2)ANSW: what do you mean both have relationship with BK? If you quit, there is no relationship. Quitting means "out, gone".

3)ANSW: dinousaurs 2500 years ago? I wonder if you make a distinction between knowledge from the "Murli" or any opinion whether from BKs or non-BKs things which anyone like yourself could talk about? Is this aspect in your Bibliography? there are more things but one at the time...

4)ANSW: So the page says destruction. There was a war, thus destruction happens. However, the earth will not be destroyed nor the human race. Is this destruction, "armageddon" as you pointed out? Obviously there is no such a thing as armageddon for BK knowledge and as you explained that is the way you used the word to be understood. Thus, If there is no armageddon and that is what you meant when you say "destruction" then there is a problem when using this word. As I said before, logically, reasonably the proper use is "transformation" specially when you are talking about change of ages (Iron to Golden.)

5)ANSW:Just like you can write, anyone else can.. then why are you so worried about changes in this page? what is your interest behind people reading what you write? What is your interest in creating a page for Brahma Kumaris in wikipedia? Hope you answer all of these questions.

6)ANSW:Once you have an experience, there is no need to base that on anything. You see, experiences are not based on intellectual knowledge alone. What is the difference between "sect" and "religion"? You obviously interchange both loosely when you refer to BK. Finally an article cannot be neutral when you have strong feelings against someone.

BTW, there is no need to let me know that mi IP address could be blocked. FYI there is something called DHCP. Best Wishes and Pure feelings. 70.119.13.124 18:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The Brahma Kumaris teach that Creation exists of a single, constantly repeating 5,000 year cycle or Kalpa. That there is no time longer ago than 5,000 years. There is a fair amount of evidence to suggest that dinosaurs once walked the Earth. So when in the last 5,000 years did the dinosaurs live? Did they live in the Paradise of Golden Age 5,000 years ago or 2,500 years ago at the beginning of the Copper Age?
 * The Wikipedia states ; " Armageddon refers generally to end times or giant catastrophes in various religions and cultures. It may also refer to any great loss of life in battle or use of weapons of mass destruction. " This is precisely the as the B.K.W.S.U. gives to " Destruction ".
 * Added quote from B.K.W.S.U. teaching poster called, " Truth about The Creator and His Creation by Most Beloved World God Father Shiva Kalpa (5,000 years) Ago. " ; " ... the Iron Aged irreligious world destroyed through Shankar by goading Yadvas [ i.e. the scientists of Europe etc. ] ". See ;.
 * 195.82.106.244 21:53, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

70.119.13.124 00:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC) Baba has not talked about dinosaurs. I have my own theory. This is about the knowledge of Brahma Kumaris not about what you think or what I think. This is a proof of how "neutral" your article is. Also, check the use of the word entropy. You are not using it properly when you talk about the ages. and last but no least...(more to come) please don't use "wikipedia" to support your statements. Wikipedia is not a primary source. Students in higher Ed. institutions are not allowed to use Wikipedia. If you want serious support of what you say use something which is backed up by academia.

Evident Bias in this article
According to WIKIPEDIA "A bias is a prejudice in a general or specific sense, usually in the sense of having a predilection for one particular point of view or ideology. One is said to be biased if one is influenced by one's biases. A bias could, for example, lead one to accept or not-accept the truth of a claim, not because of the strength of the claim itself, but because it does or does not correspond to one's own preconceived ideas." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV

This article fits clearly in this category. There are many questions which have not been answered. Please check Bibliography. It is not pertinent to the body of the article. I have read myself most of those books. Please check form of language used for this article.

Bias
1.Language is biased.

2.Author of this article considers Raja yoga as "spirit channeling."

3.Author expresses view in a non neutral language: Sat Yuga for "its faithful followers."

4.Author expresses: "Lekhraj Kripalani attracted mostly women." Non neutral view. It should say "the movement attracted ..."

5.The author writes:"The version made more vague and palatable to Westerners is found here." This is clearly an opinion.

6."Multi-million dollar registered " educational " charity that does not distribute aid outside of its operations." Recently Brahma Kumaris gave monetary aid to the victims of the devastation in Tsunami in Sri Lanka. There is clear misinformation in order to hurt BK image.

7."Followers are taught that if they make spiritual efforts by getting rid of the 5 vices [ lust, ego. anger, greed and attachment ] and only they, Brahma Kumars and Kumaris will live in the coming Golden Aged paradise." BK is an open university anyone is welcome in their classes. There is no need to write "and only they." BK is open to everyone.

8.Donations are generally not accepted from non-B.K.s as their money is considered as " impure ". WRONG. There are plenty of donations from outsiders which at one time or another have taken benefit from different classes or workshops. The author clearly pretends to create animosity with his sarcastic phrase.

9."B.K.s were instructed not to do general social work nor perform what is generally understood as charity." See Tsunami in Sri Lanka. Your sentence is misinformed, bias and non-neutral.

10. Author has made deep mistakes in the aspects of knowledge as well, which have not been corrected.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.13.124 (talk • contribs)


 * 1. Give specific examples


 * 2. See definition of spirit channeling and relate that to what Lekhraj Kripalani and Gulzar Dadi did / do and explain why that is not channeling. The argument is not if some spirit is being channelled but what or which spirits are being channelled. BKWSU will claim that those spirits that are being channelled are God, Shiva and/or Lekhraj Kripalani. It is not possible to imperically state whether those spirits that are being channelled are actually God, Shiva and/or Lekhraj Kripalani.


 * Many would not even consider that such a thing as a soul, spirit or channeling exists. But, on the presumption that some kind of phenomenon does exist and that phenomenon is called channeling, this is what is going on inside the BKWSU. channeling it is said takes two basic forms ; firstly, the " total possession " type form where the channelled entity takess complete control over the victim or accomplice's body ; secondly, where the entity's "energy" or "vibrations" are channelled through an individual who remains conscious and in control. This is what is being taught and practiced within BKWSU. Not yoga as most individuals understand it. This is not what the BKWSU tell individuals what is happening nor that they are being prepared to be used in such a way. But it is what they are doing, as you well know.
 * 3. " Satyuga is being prepared for you, my faithful children ". BKWSU philosophy states that at some point within the next 30 years, the world population will be reduced from in excess of 6 Billion at present to just 900,000 of which will all be exceptional Raja Yoga / Shiva Baba followers. These - and only these Raja Yoga followers - are the individuals that will inherit the Golden Age, Heaven on earth. No Christians, Mohammedans, Buddhists, Jehovah Witnesses will [ unless of course they have " converted " ]. Can you quote the Murli points that contradict this?
 * 4. In the begining there was no movement only Lekhraj Kripalani. Without Lekhraj Kripalani, what else was there to be attracted to. He was after all to become Krishna [ the all attractive one ]] and the women followers were called his Gopis. See the bibliography.
 * 5. Explain the differnces then. Most individuals would see the Westernerized version as whitewash hiding the truth.
 * 6. Please provide financial reports to establish what propoprtion over what years has been given outside of the organization. As a registered charity, these account are actually in the public domain already. It would appear that for most of its 70 years existence, it has been specific policy for BK followers not to give to any charity other that the organisation itself nor to do any other charitable work, other than the work of the organization again.
 * 7. The point being that the BKWSU teach " only they, Brahma Kumars and Kumaris, will live in the coming Golden Aged paradise ". Anyone can come, but only those individuals born again as BKs will inherit the coming Golden Aged paradise. It would seem that you are obfuscating the point.
 * 8. Similar obfucation, define " plenty ". Have those that " taken benefit " now become BKs? Provide substantiation by way of accounts. The Maryadas used to be quite clear, but perhaps, like " end of the world " and world population predications, they have changed too. In the manner that " God states that the population of the world is fixed at 5.5 Billion but the number keeps being re-edited by the organization as actually population grows.
 * 9. " One swallow does not a summer make ". Aristotle. The quotation as it stands has been the organization's policy for most of its history. To an outsider, it looks fairly clear that what the organization considers " service " or " charity " is actually its own evangelism or P.R.. Again, please provide institutional records to contradict rather than your own POV.
 * 10. Be specific. Itemize your criticisms. Provide evidence to the contrary.
 * Perhaps you can answer the question why the BKWSU organization does not openly publish its God's doctrines, in their original and edited forms, so that impartial observers can make their own deducations. Unfortunately, too many of the unpublished " doctrines " do exist in the public domain and it clearly states that non-BKs are " devillish " and our intellects are too " impure " to understand them. What are we to make of this and why does the organization not just come clean?
 * 195.82.106.244 23:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


 * 1)ANSW: See 2, 3 and 4 above. The whole article is about negativity towards BK. Any further proof?


 * There is a difference between objective and negative. The article may not be the P.R. exercise you would wish for but it is as close to objective fact at the BKWSU allows given its unwillingness over the last 25 years or more to put into the public domain its original and re-edited " scriptures ".


 * 2)ANSW: It is not about the definition. It is about what you wrote: "Teachers of a form of meditation, or spirit channelling." Certainly, teachers do not teach "spirit channeling." It is pretty hard to write a non bias article when neutrality is not in your mind.


 * There is a difference in what Brahma Kumaris say and what Brahma Kumaris do. And even what Brahma Kumaris understand that they are doing. Are they not channelling their God's energy through them into this impure world? Do they not tell us Gulzar Dadi's body is being possessed by the spirits of Shiva and Brahma and those possessing spirits talking and acting through it?


 * 3)ANSW: "" Satyuga is being prepared for you, my faithful children "" this is certainly different than " "" Satyuga is being prepared for you, my faithful "and only you" BK truthful children. " " You need to remember that every single soul is a child of God. These types of misunderstandings make your article a false representation of the BK movement.


 * Non sequitor. It does not follow. Every human being may be a child of their own God. BKWSU teach that only Brahma Kumaris and Brahma Kumaris will reincarnate in heaven on earth, all other human beings will reincarnate in a Hell on earth.


 * 4)ANSW:When you are talking about OM Mandali, you need to express a movement not an individual. He wasn't Krishna then and He is not Krishna right now.


 * It depends on whether " Krishna " is used as a name or a description, e.g the all attractive one. Lekraj's followers are referred to as his Gopis.


 * 5)ANSW:There is a big difference. Any global corporation will adjust its presentation according to the culture. Not everyone in the world is Hindu. When you say "most individuals would see" who are they? do you have proof? otherwise, is just talk.


 * So we present both and let the readers decide for themselves. Agreed.


 * 6)ANSW:Actually, YOU are the one who needs to provide that information before writing it. How do you back up that info? Otherwise, you can write that "movement X has trillions of dollars and they will not share it with all the poor people in the world." Proof please.


 * UK Charity Commissioners, 2002. " Total income was £2,855,758, total expenditure only £630,673, donations to other charities/causes £ 0. " That is just one country. Not bad for an organization that has little inthe way or products and does not charge for its services. Figures from India please. Should be Purchasing power parity [ PPP ] adjusted.


 * 7)ANSW: Again, BK is open to anyone. It is on you if you want to feel a part or not. You see there are no BKs who have received a "membership card" with Gold Age privileges. Clear misunderstanding of the knowledge.


 * If it is true that the BKWSU is open to anyone, why to they ban individuals as reported on P.B.K. websites? Again, this is double talk and misleading P.R. and the Wikipedia is not the place to discuss it. There is a difference between an organization wanting to attract members and considering those individuals to be " card carrying " Brahmins. But the BKWSU specifically states that ONLY BKWSU Brahmins will inherit the Golden Age. If the BKWSU is happy to make public copies of their hidden scriptures, I am happy to mark quotation with dates. Enough of these do exist in the public domain and on the referenced websites to substantiate this point.


 * 8)ANSW: You wrote this in your bias article: "In many countries, especially in the West, the Brahma Kumaris have introduced lightweight versions of their meditation courses designed to capitalize on the interest in New Age, positive thinking or personal growth movements which introduce basic elements of their faith and practice but avoid detailed and controversial instruction. Often these courses focus on specific interest groups such as women, business people, teachers and so on."
 * Those are the ones who donate monies after the programs. You contradict yourself, my friend.


 * So, the BKWSU advertises free courses but accept donations for them from non-followers. Can you give us evidence of this and the proportion of income raised in this manner?


 * 9)ANSW: I showed you one case. A large case BTW. This excludes the sentence "they do not do it." You need to investigate further before you write something. Your language is not accurate.


 * More evidence please. it probably came about because for such a wealth organisation not to have given at that time would have been very bad P.R. for them but it is a new - and perhaps one off - development so cannot be said to be a trend or policy - unless, of course, so published. Why would the BKWSU give money to individuals that were just going to go off eat meat, drink alcohol and have sex? Were the " gifts " conditional?.


 * 10) There are some questions that you have decided not to answer above. At least you should answer all of them. Otherwise it is just a "power game". When I point out that "entropy" is not being used correctly, you do not take care it. That makes me wonder if you really know what you are writing about. The Iron age cannot be the "lowest" entropy. It is the opposite. Now you know. Remember the dinosaurs above? have you taken care of that?... If you have not realized God, If you are unable to recognize God, to feel God, to have an experience with God..how can the murli benefit you?


 * Which aspect of entropy do you wish to discuss and what is its relevance here? Your science is being judged here and it does not suggest that you are qualified in this area. Any discussion of what entropy is ought to be done on the respective pages and new concepts put through scientific peer review.


 * You should write objectively " If you have not realized [our] god, if you are unable to recognize [our] god, to feel [our] god ... how can [ our god's scriptures ] benefit you ". The impartial response would be, make them all public in original and recently editing form, and let the academics and people decide.


 * The BKWSU have latched on to a simplistic understanding of entropy, as a kind of buzzword, understood to mean a decline from an ordered state to a disordered state and they clearly apply this to human and world evolution. The BKs teach [ see references ], turning evolution upside down to current scientific understanding, that human civilisation started 5,000 years ago in a pure, ordered and evolved Golden Age then declined to an impure, disorder, uncivilised Hell today. [ see Devolution (fallacy), Cultural evolution ]. To my knowledge, not once in the organization's 70 years have they put forward a scientific paper to substantiate this position and yet continue to teach it as fact [ see reference to " The Cycle " and " The Tree " ] at the core of their belief system to 100,000s of largely uneducated individuals. The problem being that the BKWSU teach that all the best scientific minds of this world are " impure and devillish " and to re-write this is to re-write the teaching of their god .
 * It is clear to me that your negativity towards BK is very high. At least remember to send good wishes and good feelings to ALL... how come you don't write that BK teaches this? Best Wishes and Pure Feelings for you.
 * 70.119.13.124 01:17, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
 * '''Why do you call objectivity negativity? Why not just be honest and state that you are a representative of this organization, that you do not like that clear, objective facts about the organizations teachings and activities are being made public? Is honesty not a virtue, or does the " Celestial Art of Hiding and Revealing " come first in your organization's book?
 * The ball is in your court to give up the petty insults and come up with a burden of evidence to contradict the reported points, see, [] . Response in bold ; 195.82.106.244 09:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

There is no change in the form of this article
Well, after pointing out mistakes, bias, non neutrality and bad faith from the author of this article, still no a single word has been changed. The author of this article even feel "insulted." Sir, I am concerned about you. Even, when you contradict yourself many times and still defend yur view point. The verifiability link you sent me clearly shows that your article does not comply with its requirements :

"Information on Wikipedia must be reliable. Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible. Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed."

Your Bibliography certainly does not point out to your own descriptions. You are basing your "facts" in what you have experienced in the UK. The UK is not the the whole BK. There is more to it. Your experiences does not make it a fact. Your proofs do not contain an official document, it is just stuff you are writing. Please see that. Their is no encyclopedia who will write in bias language such as: "their God." They would do it in a more appropriately way such as: " They be lieve that God.... etc. It would surprise me if you take the time to fix these bias. BTW, how about the dinosaurs? Did you fix that? (third time) now I will concentrate on your comments:

Which aspect of entropy do you wish to discuss and what is its relevance here? Your science is being judged here and it does not suggest that you are qualified in this area. Any discussion of what entropy is ought to be done on the respective pages and new concepts put through scientific peer review'''

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.13.124 (talk • contribs)


 * Just to clarify " Your science ", the article for deletion on the topic Cyclical Time,, was written by the above contributor alone and this editor had no involvement in its creation. I have never contributed on scientific matters


 * The article has been deleted by overwhelming consensus.


 * Dinosaurs. OK. The BK World Spiritual University teach that time or Creation exists as a 5,000 year cycle. There is no mention of their existing in " Heaven " on earth. In your opinion, when during that cycle do they teach dinosaurs existed?


 * " Their god " is actually very common construction in English. Try checking with Google.com. The specific point being made here is that the BKWSU teach that they are unique representatives of " God ", in that " God " comes in person only to them, and teaches these concepts reported. Other experts or monotheistic religions might not agree that this is the " One God " they share, nor that these teachings are " God's " teachings. Pantheists might agree that it is " a " god, one of many. And so hence, " their God " is accurate.


 * 195.82.106.244 11:00, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

The World Cycle
First, there is no such a thing as "my science." And as you poined out, I am qualified to write anything I want as long as I have a browser and internet connection... Welcome to WIKIPEDIA... As you can see there are a couple of reasonable individuals who wanted to keep the topic. I cannot ask someone who is not up -to-date with scientific knowledge to judge the topic, but again they have an internet connection and a browser too and one or two degrees and I guess that qualifies them to judge, right? Let me try one more time. The Wesrtern world believes time is linear. There are 2 main theories which explain the origin of the universe. Creationism and "Big Bang" which is supported by evolutionist. Curiously, a priest playing scientist is the one who came up originally with this theory which later was supported by others, however you can read in detail about this here:http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bang.html

However, to be able to explain about "origins" you need to be able to talk about TIME. In the case of the "Big Bang" no one cares what happened few seconds after the explosion, but what was there before and WHY?. Can the big bang explain this? Here is where the concept of God creating the world fits rather nicely (for religious purposes aka science.) However, we have a couple of problems: The first law of thermodynamics does not agree with it and there is no "cause and effect" behind it. When you look at this in a logical, reasonable way, you will see that linear time fails to explain the origin in a logical fashion. However, a "cycle" offers the solution. The question "who is first, the chicken or the egg" is resolved. The 3 aspects of time are there, cause and effect are there and most importantly the first law of thermodynamics fits this description. Do you see that?

There are some scientific problems which are also resolved by using the cycle model.One of them is the problem of the "arrow of time." which it was fully explained in the topic of cyclic time. Einstein model of the universe is also an "sphere" and the universe must be finite, according to theory of relativity. Time warps, he pointed out.

If the first law of thermodynamics takes place, then the second law must do so. Here the concept of entropy must be understood. As matter changes from "orderly" to "disorderly" (those are not the right words used by scientists now) entropy tend to become HIGHER. (Thus the IRON AGE is a state of higher entropy, disorderly, see? the Golden age, lower entropy) This concept is clearly explained with the Chinese philosophy of Ying-Yang or dualism in matter. Up to this point, any questions? Do you see this by using logic alone, reasoning alone? Please bear in mind that "a straight line" is non existent in nature. The shortest distance between 2 points is a "geodesic" a curve. We live in a sphere after all. Thus, what is the support for the concept of "linear time"?

Finally western scientists are not the only scientists.. and logic and reason are extremily powerful. After all, we are Souls. 70.119.13.124 14:33, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * * Your artical on Cyclical Time was deleted by consensus, . Please find somewhere else to debate this, perhaps specific pages regarding the scientific concepts you quote. This article is about the BKWSU and what it teaches.


 * * There is no debate that the BKWSU that time is cycical.


 * * It is agreed that the BKWSU, and its " God ", teaches their followers that time is cycle and exists in one single 5,000 year cycle. It is not the purpose of this article, nor one might argue the Wikipedia, to decide whether this concept is true, only to decide whether it is easily verifiable by any individual that it is true that the BKWSU teach this.


 * * I have provided several very good, direct and easily verifiable sources - on the topic page and discussion - to confirm that the BKWSU does teach cyclical time, 5,000 years and " Destruction " of the world.
 * 195.82.106.244 10:36, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

The World Cycle Discussions Started August, 2006
New discussion request as per avyakt7Rivers11. PEACETalkAbout 01:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Destruction
Just to clarify that the use of the word, " Destruction " is accurate in this context as it is the word used by the founder and organization.

THe following is a quote from the spirit entity the BKs call their " God ", channelled through the spiritualistic medium of Lehkraj Lekhraj Kripalani. Knowns as a " sakar murli ", that is a scripture spoken through Lekhraj Kripalani. It was re-edited by senior members of the BKWSU and republished internationally within the organization dated 30.05.06, to be read to all members at the daily morning class ;


 * " ... The intellect says that we have come out of the Iron Age. Baba [ God ] has come...... Children [ B.K.s ] know that when our study is completed then the destruction will take place. Destruction is certainly going to take place. There are some among you who know this. If it is understood that the world is going to be destroyed then one will start preparing for the new world. One will make ready the baggage. There is a little time left. We should become Baba's children [ become B.K.s following the BKs' god ]. Even if anyone has to die of hunger, it will be first Baba [ Lehkraj Lekhraj Kripalani ] and then children [ B.K.s ]."


 * [ Comments in brackets to translate the word previous ].

As verifiable material, I think this clears up the matter of the use of the word " Destruction. Withing the BKWSU, use of the word " Destruction " has given it a specific meaning that is used here, e.g. the guarantied death of over 5.1 Billion human beings the destruction of world civilisation as it stands and the " disappearing " of all other land masses on the globe, except India.

This is what contributor Riveros11 using IP addresses 70.119.13.124, and indeed the BK organization externally, euphemistically calls " Transformation ". I hope that this closes the matter and draws attention to the intent and integrity of the BK contributor. 195.82.106.244 10:23, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Not that Fast
Please do not change the tag, This matter has not been settled yet. (that is why I am still writing here, and btw, you will see me here often) I disagree with your article form, intent and objectivity. You quote BK knowledge when it fits your interest and some other times you quote your own understanding or what you heard. As a matter of fact even though, I pointed out that what you write is not BK Knowledge, you just disregard my points altogether. Also, I want to make clear that I do not represent Brahma Kumaris, so don't start "interpreting" things. I am writing here as user Riveros11 and that is what I represent. Unfortunately, you decided to mask or hide yourself behind an IP address, wihtout a suitable user name. This is a proof that you are perhaps afraid of people knowing your identity. It is easy to write anything you want in that way right?. Throwing the rock and hiding the hand...

You keep on talking about "destruction" I thought this was settled long ago. Again about destruction: You keep on changing the meaning, from Armageddon and its definition to what you think BK believes destruction is to some quoted sentences which as far as I am concerned they can be made up by you. You have not presented any bona fide information or document which supports your arguments.

The objective view of the word destruction is the dictionary word: "end state." This you can verify. Now, the world cannot be destroyed because according to BK knowledge there is an eternal cycle. This is logic. To verify this, see the first law of thermodynamics. This is reasonable, logical, rational. I know you just want to concentrate on this word, but you are ignoring that there are plenty of flaws in your article. When are you going to correct those? 70.119.13.124 16:22, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I presented the quotation with significant enough references that you can go check it to see if it is true. This was in addition to references to the BK published poster that clearly states " Destruction ".
 * Once you have, come back and provide equivalently verifiably sources to suggest that the BKWSU have publically stated that there is going to be no " Destruction ", that 5.1 Billion + humans are not going to die to make way for their Golden Age, that there is going to be no Nuclear Holocaust, that all the other continents of the planet are not going to sink below the oceans and that only India will remain. If you can do so, I will go and verify them.
 * Otherwise, the statements stand as they are. You seem to be the only one disputing them. We and the BKWSU are in agreement.
 * The Laws of Thermodynamics state that ; the increase in the internal energy of a system is equal to the amount of energy added to the system by heating, plus the amount added in the form of work done on the system, it is impossible to obtain a process that, operating in cycle, produces no other effect than the subtraction of a positive amount of heat from a reservoir and the production of an equal amount of work and as temperature approaches absolute zero, the entropy of a system approaches a constant. I don't see the immediate relevence to this topic, discussion regarding Laws of Thermodynamics ought be had on the thermodynamics page not here.
 * 195.82.106.244 18:49, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi, just wanted to add that there are many people who have edited this article, so there's no need for such passionate discourse(unless you enjoy it) I myself was a long time bk, i was surrendered and a teacher who regularly read the murli in morning class, and i sincerly believe on the whole that this article is a very accurate representation of what the BKs are about, the knowledge and it's definitions are accurate. Maybe it's just the pr information you take issue with? I also know about this as i was also directly involved with the task of presenting the organisation in a favourable light to the public........what large organisation wouldn't have such concerns?
 * —Preceding unsigned comment added by Green108 (talk • contribs)


 * Thanks. FYI, green108, please sign your contributions by typing 4 " tildas " at the end of your post. I.e. 4 of the ~ mark. The mark that is generally created by typing " alt-n ", or similar, according on your keyboard and operating system. You can even copy and paste them into place. This will automatically leave a date and time stamp on your gratefully received contribution.
 * In this manner, hopefully we can come to some consensus about statements by the above contributor and move forward. They seem to be the only one arguing against the facts are presented and their argument is, in my humble opinion, dangerously close to crapflood from a troll. [ Technical terms not insults].
 * 195.82.106.244 18:49, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Geejap is a vandal and has once again deleted the complete article on 5/19/06. Geejap you are a dictator....not very good deity material if you ask me. TalkAbout....

Article have been improving but there is a lot to be desired
Dear Green108: Thank you for your input. I respect your viewpoint, specially coming from an unbias setting. This article have been modified quite a bit from dinosaurs to entropy... and perhaps your input was needed. Nothing good can happen out of bad feelings as you know. It is obvious to me that the writer of this article demonstrates his feelings throughout. You wrote as if "you were" a BK, but I don't sense that animosity as the author of this article has towards BK. That makes a big difference. If you feel it reads ok, let it be... until someone else doesn't think so... Om Shanti.

Suggested edit for introductory sentence
Hi Everyone,

The article current begins:http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brahma_Kumaris_World_Spiritual_Organisation&action=edit&section=13

Teachers of a form of meditation, or spirit channelling, called Raja Yoga [not to be confused with classical Patanjali's Raja Yoga].

Speaking as a former member, I think this is a bit broad.

BKs specifically teach to maintain contact with God, in which one remains as an active individual, in contrast with channeling where the emphasis is on the self disappearing, where one becomes a vehicle for expression of The Other.

I suggest: Teaches a form of meditation called Raja Yoga [not to be confused with classical Patanjali's Raja Yoga] that emphasizes contact with a Supreme Being and awareness of self as spirit as the primary method of purifying oneself.

Will edit following any discussion here.

Duality Rules 05:41, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem is that in most religions God is present as something remove, universal and even conceptual whereas with the BKWSU, the God that they refer to is one specific entity located in one specific georgraphic location which they claim is " The " God or Supreme Soul. The BKWSU use the term God to refer to this entity and claim exclusive rights to truth. This entity is certainly being channelled in the manner by which channelling is understood by a small handful of individuals within the history of the organisation that are compeltely possessed by it so as to give over the control and even sensation of their physical organs during the period of possession. If you believe this could be so.


 * This leads us to discuss whether or not the practise that they teach is actually Raja Yoga, or yoga, as it is generally understood by others. It is plainly not. The confusion arising from their having usurpt this traditional terminology for a quite different practise. Whereas it is accepted that they are not teaching channelling to the degree of spirit possession, what the BKs are teaching is distinctly the channelling of this spiritual entities vibrations.195.82.106.244 01:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that the BKs have their own definitions of yoga and Raja Yoga. Also that a couple of members *do* channel the entity they consider to be God. A larger number do not channel, but receive messages from, this entity; many more received such visions and messages in former times. However the BKs are not practicing or teaching channeling any more than Christians do when they think "What would Jesus want for me?" or when the seek to experience direct communication and relationship.


 * My information is based on more than 10 years of full involvement with the group. What is your basis for asserting they they are teaching distinctly the channeling of this spiritual entities[sic] vibrations?


 * Duality Rules 02:26, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that present opening sentence is not good - when I (mis)read it before I thought that the channelling referred to the murlis. BKWSU definitely don't teach channelling to their students - if anything, they discourage it because mutliple channellings causes problems of authority eg the PBK situation. I would say that the central foundation of BKWSU is the channelling (if that is right word) of Shiva but this channelling is a unique role reserved for one person - formerly Dada Lekhraj now Dadi Gulzar - it is not something that is taught to others.I would say that BKWSU does teach yoga in the sense of communion with God but this is quite different to channelling.
 * Pea Soup 14:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I went ahead and wrote a new introductory paragraph. Our wikipedian colleague 195.82.106.244 was not happy with it. Why do you insist on including 'channeling' as a definition, 195 (if I can be so familiar)? The BKs, as far as i can tell from my long experience, do not teach automatic writing, or trance induction, or table tapping or speaking in tongues, or any of those practices that I associate with making oneself into a vehicle for another entity's expression.


 * The current version uses overemphatic boldface to list an alternative spelling of the group name with a 'z'.... oh maybe you wanted articles pointing to this one with alternative spellings. Multiple versions of the group's name seem rather stogdy and uninformative for a first paragraph, although I'm new to Wikipedia... maybe stodgy is the new cool.


 * If God is love and you experience love, that is not channeling. Same substituting Jesus, Buddha, Shiva, etc. for God. Channeling implies origins in the personality and thoughts of another. Why would we refer to BKs who commune with Shiva as channeling, when we don't refer to Christians communing with Christ as channeling? Both can be equally guilty of cultish behavior and of attuning themselves to their chosen prophet/deity's vibrations.


 * Why not leave channeling for those who clearly teach it. The Pathwork Foundation is another group whose founder (Eva Pierakkos) did channel, but followers do not seek to emulate this. Edgar Cayce, also.


 * The BKs call what they teach Yoga, meaning Union. Every spiritual path in India gets called 'yoga' just as every path in japan gets called '-do' (way). Using Raja yoga in a different sense than pantanjali does not, IMO make the BKs guilty of channeling.


 * So what is it in your evidence or personal experience that allies you so firmly to channeling, 195?


 * By the way, I think I like my proposal for a first sentence above better than the one I actually edited into place a couple revisions ago today. Other opinions, please!


 * Regards to all.


 * Duality Rules 09:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi


 * OK. The listing of the various names is to make it easier for readers from different countries where it is known as different things. It also helps highlight the topic in search engines.


 * Why the early emphasis on channelling? I softened it to " involved channelling ", which we seem to agree it certainly does even if the organization is loathed to admit it in those terms, because I think this identifies the difference between what BK Raja Yoga is in comparison other yoga or meditation paths. This leaves it up to the reader to decide whether they can believe this is God or Yoga as they know and understand it.


 * In a sense channelling is the safer option from stating the absolute that, say, " the BKWSU teaches that the God of Islam and the Bible comes to Earth and enters into the head of an old Indian man and then an old lady to speak to Hindus telling them they are the chosen ones and you have to think about him all the time " etc.


 * 195.82.106.244 02:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Nice to see you're willing to discuss this issue. Edgar Cayce received messages through a form of channeling but does not teach channeling. Similarly for Eva Pierrakos, who was a medium, but did not teach or advocate mediumship. BKs also warn against mediumship, citing that one risks possession by evil spirits, and that it does not serve to change the personality traits in one's subconscious. This is stated in many of the discourses (murlis) by the founder. "Trance is a completely different subject from Yoga," is typical of the language the founder would use. Also statements like "Maya [illusion/vice] comes in trance. Baba doesn't advise children to go into trance. Many who went into trance and spoke to Baba in the subtle regions are not here today."


 * (Although I use quotes, I am actually paraphrasing from memory.)


 * Virtual anyone can let their imagination open on a subject and receive something like hypnogogic images,which they can interpret as they please. When I first joined the group, certain designated people would go into trance on Thursday morning when food was offered and bring back a message. I also attempted to accomplish such, opening myself to such subtle dreamlike perceptions, images that I could report and interpret. This was an occasional activity, not part of everyday meditation practice.


 * In the mid 1990's, Dadi Prakashmani issued an order from Madhuban headquarters that no one shall go into trance when offering food, except for Dadi Gulzar, the current medium for the founder.


 * Speaking to your point, 195, I think it is clear and correct to say, Teachers of a form of meditation based on a body of spiritual knowledge revealed through the founder Lehkraj Kirplani. Kirplani believed himself to be the medium through which God imparts unique truths absent from or misconstrued in the teachings of existing religions. To simplify this as that the group teaches spirit channeling is not safe, in my opinion, but oversimplified to the point of being erroneous.


 * The two chief teachings of the group: consider yourself a soul, and remember the soul's Supreme Father, The Supreme Soul, do not, in my view and based on my experience with the group equate to channeling. Remembering ones own identity as soul, is certainly not so. The group believes that when you are 'soul conscious' you will automatically be aware of God, whereas if you are 'body conscious' you will think only of corporeal bodily beings. Body consciousness, the group believes, is the reason followers of religion contemplate images and acts of human religious founders rather than the incorporeal form of God Himself, which the group argues is inaccessible to contemplation by someone trapped in consciousness of the physical world and corporeal beings. None of this is connected to channeling. The group teaches relationship to God as Father, Mother, Teacher, Friend, Guide, etc. etc., which also seems distinct from the process of making oneself into a canal or pipe through which water or something else can flow. The latter is an inanimate metaphor, the former evokes the relationships of a child with adults and contemporaries as it moves through life.


 * Finally, the group believes that the communion with God which it teaches, although informed by their unique spiritual knowledge it possesses, is essentially in common with the teachings of the great religions to remember The One God.


 * I would conclude by asking 195, which of the groups that advocate channeling as a method of spiritual advancement, the BKs most resemble, if you have genuinely researched channeling.


 * Duality Rules 12:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi.


 * I dont think any group advocates channeling as a method of spiritual advancement. How did this Gulzar become the channel for their spirit guide? Was she taught it or was she just spontaneously possessed by their spirit guide? The topic article and links also reference other BK sisters being possessed and channelling [ and being used as trance mediums. Were they taught it or did it happen spontaneously?


 * You raise an interesting question that I wonder if you had ever considered.


 * I am very resistant to the topic decline to adopting unquestioningly the Organizations self presentation PR. They say " The God Father ". How many other religions are likely to agree, on the basis of what we know about them and their teachings, that their spirit guide is their and The One and Only God? Best to play it safe and not pander to them until they provide some citable sources.


 * 195.82.106.244 17:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I've looked through several on-line references on the BKs written by non-BKs in bibliograpy section. I find only one reference to channeling. In none of these works is channeling presented as a central part of the meditation practice as the article here suggests. Where is some support in the literature for your position that the meditation the BKs teach "involves channeling", to the point of a being a central defining characteristic of their practice--which your placing this reference at the head of the Wikipedia article suggests? Neither Howell, nor Kranenborg, nor even the report at reachouttrust.org shares the emphasis you place on "spirit channeling".


 * And which other groups whose meditation practice "involves channeling" do the BKs resemble?


 * How is the BKs practice of communion with God more channeling than Christian practice of communion with God? Some BKs have conversation with God. Many talk about a relationship with God. Relationship seems distinct from channeling.


 * The BKs world view is based on explanations received through what may be considered channeling--an entity speaking through a medium--and on trance visions, which are not strictly channeling. However developing a communicative relationship with God, which the group teaches, seems something different.


 * I would like to see you address these issues with your assertions that channeling is the defining characteristic of what the group teaches. Where, in BK or academic publications or other well-researched critical writings about the BKs can you cite evidence that the group teaches a kind of meditation that is in essence channeling?


 * I don't see how my requesting evidence for your assertion has anything to do with unquestioningly accepting the group's PR as you suggest in your reply. In the absence of support in other references or reports from the group's practitioners your characterization begins to appear like deliberate misrepresentation.


 * Duality Rules 20:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * *And how did Gulzar and the other sisters become mediums?
 * *Were they taught it or just spontaneously possessed by this spirit we are discussing ?


 * Play the game. If you want your questions answered, answer mine.


 * I think we have to continue to be cautious in the use of the term " God ". There is no evidence to suggest that this spirit that possesses their mediums in India today is necessarily even a God or The God.


 * All we can say for sure is that it is a possessing spirit and that it is channelled and that members are taught to be one with it in their minds at all times - and channel its energy out into the world often directly by the process called Dhristi, e.g. that they teach followers to channel spiritual energy through the power of their Dhristi into food they eat or feed others.


 * 195.82.106.244 00:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I added the closest link to a reference to the channelling of energy through the BK follower and into this world. Its close to the end of this article. 195.82.106.244 02:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Copyediting
I spent a fair amount of time the other day copyediting this article, correcting erroneous word usage, punctuation, and spacing -- without changing the substance of the article -- and was unhappy to see that all this work was undone by some editor who apparently does not understand the correct usage of English. I have re-placed the cleanup-copyedit tag on the article because there is still much work to be done fixing these issues. This is not an issue about the content of the article, but simply about correct English usage. --Russ Blau (talk) 19:12, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I am very sorry, it was me who changed it back, not because of your editing, but because some idiot decided to remove some of the links without raising any issue here in the discussion. I am so fed up of bks coming on here trying to hijack this article for their ends, and I have re written links so many times i did just re instate the whole article out of frustration. The fool had also removed a whole paragraph.


 * I apologise again, I didn't mean to undo whatever good work was done, but this does get a bit infuriating after a while Green108 18:03, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Green 108


 * Dear RussBlau,
 * If you do any further corrections (we always welcome improvement) please note to check for UK spelling as the largest group of BKs reside there. Please take care not to remove content as Green 108 mentioned above which caused loss of content. Thank you in advance. TalkAbout 10:43, 27 April 2006


 * Revision as of 19:39, 16 May 2006
 * 67.187.114.132 (Talk) You are only serving to prove that all is not well in the land of "PURITY" by deleting the page and its content. If you want to delete it first discuss your position or start a Promo page on the Brahma Kumaris and place a clear sign that it is a PR page.  If folks want to learn about them and their philosophy the links to the "Official" sites are provided first.  See, no fear from the truth here.  So, grow up and as you will have to write it in your chart...as one can not have "NEGATIVE" thoughts.
 * TalkAbout 5/17/2006


 * Geejap: Deleted the complete article and is not a very open person. This is all the information he/she thinks people should have.


 * Quote,
 * Geejap:Also known as ; Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual Organization, Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University [ BKWSU ], or " Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya ". Teaches a form of meditation, or spirit channeling, called Raja Yoga


 * - + As a worldwide family of individuals from all walks of life, the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual Organization offers an education in human, moral and spiritual values. To meet the challenge of change, it initiates dialogue and presents a fresh vision of the future. It recognizes the intrinsic goodness of all human beings and teaches meditation to help each one rediscover their inner resources and strengths. End Quote


 * So, Geejap how can one "initiate dialogue and present a fresh vision of the future" when you suppress information and delete it at your whim (desire...could this be a desire to "control" people before getting to the Golden Age?). Please do all of us a favor and provide service to those that want it, I for one don't want it nor need it. Remember Geejap that inorder to "recognize intrinsic goodness of all" one has to be good and not behave badly by deleting information and only providing one point......even if it is a point of light! TalkAbout 5/18/2006

Vandalism, 3RR policy violation and new page request.
It seems that Geejap and the anonymous user at 67.187.114.132 are colluding to vandalize the page invoking the 3RR rule and risking being banned. Complete erasure of an article is clearly vanalism.

Although an admin will have to explore Geejaps location, I see the 67.187.114.132 user is with Comcast in NJ but the block IPs seems to be in Texas, see below ; Country:   US   Updated:    2005-07-18 NetRange:  67.187.64.0 - 67.187.127.255 CIDR:      67.187.64.0/18 NetName:   TEXAS-16 Parent:    NET-67-160-0-0-1

One suggestion to a registered user:

 Would you please start new pages for Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual Organization [ with a Z ], Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University and BKWSU" These pages can then forwarded onto this article bys omeone else if the registered user does not know how. . Not all users looking for information on the BKWSU will use British English spelling and some may wish to query the acronym but not find any page.

To make a auto redirect, one creates a new page by following the links above. The Wiki will offer you to start a new page and tell you how. Once you have done so, then types in ;


 * 1) REDIRECT the_name_of_the_original_page_goes_here

replacing " the_name_of_the_original_page_goes_here " with where ever you want the page to redirect to.

It may be that the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University ought be the master page and this one link to it. I would support a move.

Thanks, 195.82.106.244 14:25, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Five Vices
A reference to the five vices has been deleted by 195.82.106.244, who has done much productive editing and reverted vandalism. A reference to the five vices as defined by the BKs is suitable here, as these attributes--greed, lust, ego, anger, attachment--are central to the BK world view. They are considered to be forms of body consciousness, the ultimate enemy, the Ravan to be defeated.

Duality Rules 02:16, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Can you find me a citation to back that up?
 * I am not sure that those five listed are " The Five Vices ". The BKWSU used to teach 5 vices of Ravan [ male ] and five vices of Maya [ their more subtle female counter parts ]. There were 10 in all.


 * I think attachment is a female vice.


 * Can you show them and their correct order? The Five Vices are not unique to BK-ism, indeed, they might come from Sikhism, e.g. ; Kam(Lust), Krodh(Anger), Lobh(Greed), Moh(Wordly attachment), Ahankar (Pride). Hence the removal requiring clarification.
 * 195.82.106.244 10:46, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * i am what you can call an informant in religious studies and anthropological circles. I heard the five vices listed during my one-week course (taken in three days) in late 1981, and we discussed regularly (means 'daily) over the next 10+ years of my time with the BKs. 5 female + 5 male vices = 10, corresponding to the 10 heads of Ravana, as we explained them. There were not separately named vices for male and female. The five vices (if you need a reference) as exhibited on the organization's posters on the walls of their "spiritual museum" at the BK center on 25 New Rohtak Road, Karol Bagh, New Delhi.


 * The vices are (in the order most commonly cited):


 * Greed, lust (sometimes called 'sex lust') anger, ego, attachment. These are the forms in which body consciousness (misidentification of the conscious soul with its physical vehicle) are believed to manifest.Duality Rules 01:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * OK. Correct and re-added. Thanks. There were presented to us in a different order and two forms, an obvious vice [ male or yang ] and its subtle [ female or yin ] counterpart. I am trying to think of examples, perhaps anger versus hatred, envy versus greed. But I have no sources to cite.
 * 195.82.106.244 12:03, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I support Duality Rules in his assessment and also in his years of experience. This:I think attachment is a female vice. I do not agree with this. "I think" does not sound like a source to me. My vote is for Duality Rules in that he has the sources to back up his information.TalkAbout 01:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

VANDALISM of Wiki page
Brahma Kumaris (ID) If you represent the organisation please provide links on your "Official" website that would indicate or refute that none of the information here within is true. For example:The organization does not teach detachment or the organisation does not teach its it's followers X or Y and place these on the "Official" website. Simple really. Also 59.92.200.181 I would suggest you do the same rather then erase all the information. The truth is out there on various sites and from a varity of sources now. So, the fact that you went to the trouble to erase the discussion page shows that you are fearful of your former followers speaking the TRUTH or "THEIR OWN MINDS"! So, in other words the Barn doors were left open (folks using their nogins) and the horse is out of the barn.TalkAbout 15:03, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

SUGGESTED MOVE TO Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual UNIVERSITY
I suggest that we move this article to ;

Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University

and use redirects to point all traffic to there.

A move of the article, history and discussion will require the assistance of an admin but if there are no strong objections it should straight forward.

The reason for this is that the organization generally refers to itself as University - even though it has no official accreditation.

See main websites below ;


 * http://www.bkwsu.com/index_html
 * http://www.bkwsu.org/index_html
 * http://www.bkwsu.org.uk/

Comments or objections please.

Brahmakumaris.info 19:37, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * BrahmaKumaris.info,


 * Well, if it should decided to move it to:Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University keep in mind that in the US and the Americas it is known as Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual Organisation. So, if you do make the move you should put (Organisation) following university so that people know it is one in the same. Also, a disclaimer as to it not being an official accredited "university" for the unsuspecting that will drop by and read about this "Spiritual University". Do you think they teach Detachment 100 and Advance Pukka Detachment 110?  TalkAbout 06:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The question was, where do people want the final destination to be? Organization or University?

ID195.82.106.244,


 * The answer is, Univeristy is fine provided that you also list (as it currently does) it as Organisation in the first paragraph as it gets more hits and in one search it came up as #2. Yes, it was this here wiki article. Their "Official" website was #1. This would also explain the level of vandalism! So, make your move...you now have my vote!TalkAbout 14:44, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * In North America, is the BKWSU known as Organisation or Organization?


 * My vote would be for " University " because that is what they like to be known as, are known as in India, is used on their website and Internationally. It would be wrong to add Org after. Redirects are used to redirect traffic.


 * 195.82.106.244 18:49, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

BrahmKumaris.info & 195.82.106.244,

They are known as both:Organisation and Organization. If in doubt do go to ask.com for a check. As for your vote (195.82.106.244) I say it's your tea party so do as you like....if "University" it is well consider yourself a graduate who has gotten all the information needed for your next leg on your journey. Please be so kind as to place a disclaimer as to it not being an official accredited "university" for the unsuspecting that will drop by and read about this "Spiritual University". Q:Is it ever wrong to tell the truth?TalkAbout

Dear Jesselp,
 * Please refrain from removing the names by which the organisation is known. I have done 2 Rev. Edits due to action from you.
 * This is where to discuss the names of the organisation.PEACETalkAbout 16:13, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Organisation's PR Pitch Discussion
Would it be worth considering what they pitch in their PR since it is factual in that they use it and it does work in luring in new members via the "FREE MEDITATION" etc. This is what some devotees (members) keep putting up:

"Raja Yoga Meditation is a method of relaxing, refreshing and clearing the mind and heart. It helps you look inside to rediscover and reconnect with your original, spiritual essence. Meditation enables an integration of your spiritual identity with the social and physical realities around you, restoring a functional and healthy balance between your inner and outer worlds. "

"The Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University recognises the intrinsic spirituality and goodness of every human being and helps people to rediscover that goodness within themselves, encouraging and facilitating the development of spiritual awareness, attitudes, behaviours and skills through a process of lifelong learning. Recognising the importance of understanding the wider context of human existence, the University's core curriculum addresses the spiritual significance of religious and cultural traditions and explores such themes as life after death, our relationship with God and the purpose of life. The university organises and participates in dialogues across a wide spectrum of issues promoting peace and understanding in many local and global forums. Above all, the University emphasises the benefits of moral and spiritual approaches to life, enabling people to develop attitudes and behaviors which stem from shared core values and understanding. Inspired by the vision of a world where people live in harmony with others, the University's purpose is to share that vision of the future while strengthening individual awareness of the dignity and worth inherent in every human being. The Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University is a non-governmental organisation in general consultative status with the United Nations Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC), in consultative status with The United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) and affiliated to the Department of Public Information (DPI). There is much misunderstanding, extravagant and misleading information made about the Brahma Kumaris philosophy, as without any actual explanation of their philosophies, practices and disciplines may appear to be abstract at first"

So, should we include their pitch...or would it be worth checking to see if this text is on the official site? Well, on the positive at least they didn't delete the whole page as before. So, some Golden Age points will be noted!TalkAbout 21:37, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * * I would agree to listing some of the achievements such as the Peace Messenger Awards etc.
 * * I would disagree to general stuff about Raja Yoga or Meditiation, that would go on the respectice pages not here.
 * * I think the whole UN PR Spin may need to be developed but that would include someone finding out what that blurb really actually means rather than chanting it like a mantra. I had a look once and one bit meant as little as they write letters in. They have been milking that connection for the last 25 years.
 * * The first bit is PR not fact, the last bit is pure wolly POV, " philosophies may appear to be abstract at first " ... what is abstract about the fact that they thought the world was going to end in 1976 or the Cycle of time is 5,000 years old and dinosaurs are 2,500 years old? BTW, I checked with the WIki and the World did not end.


 * These contributors are obviously BK followers so that know that they cant refute what has been referenced in citable sources here. That is why they just erase it and replace with PR.


 * 195.82.106.244 23:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi,

I have been editing your info "you" have been putting up (info taken from bkwsu site). lets get the first thing straight I am not a "devotee", Like I said I WAS a, if you want to call it that a devotee or student there. I said WAS, so not anymore. The reason why changed the second paragraph is because it give a wrong view of the bkwsu and what they want to achieve etc. And they are good people. I know, because I knew them for a long time. And the fact you are writing about them with out having any first hand experience is quite odd really. As a budding psychologist the first rule of obtaining any information is to go straight to source. That’s the case with any science, otherwise the data can be criticised. And to me it does not look as if you have had any first hand experience. Do you not think that it is odd that you are writing about somthing you have never experienced/done etc first hand? Its like me writing about psychology before studying it, now I am studying it my view of it has changed. i;m NOT saying EVERYTHING is wrong, but you need to give them more credit then you are giving them. btw they never not said the world will end in 1976 nor do they mention anything about dinosaurs:) peace out. Word of advice, you need to know what "they" say and and what "devotees/students" say because they get mixed. Jesselp(you forgot to put in your ID)

Dear Jesselp,

We have confirmed with several sources the "1976" and the "dinosaurs" issues. Perhaps you were not a serious student/devotee or a more recent one and thus don't know all the details. The facts remain the facts. So, perhaps you should check out all the sites and read the accounts by some long-term members and then return with a link on the "Official Site" with a statement refuting these facts. Surely, you have seen the photo of the destruction, which is in Mt. Abu? Unless someone painted it over recently? Do, a quick Google or dare to click the links provided. As to the study of psychology.....well the first thing to check is that one is oriented in time and place otherwise known as "reality". Perhaps as a student, you can do some exit interviews of members and then follow them up say in 3-5 years and see how they are getting on....just a thought. PeaceTalkAbout 00:33, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

1976
By what you say, Jesselp you were not even born in 1976. You were a kid when mum / folks were in the BKWSU, right?

According to psychology, what level comprehension does a 10 year old have of such things? As a teenager, what degree of incalcation did you have? In essence, how do you qualify yourself as a BK or even ex-BK and how deep did you go into investigating the organisation and its history before your own? Or did you just take for granted what you were told?

On your discussion page, you have some rock hard, objective facts for you to follow up on, including the 1976 reference and others. If you want copies of of the publications to take back and confront your parent/parents or the seniors BK sisters with, please leave an email address on your website and I will forward them.

This is what the Wiki is for, easily verifiable citations. Not predication nor PR.

Frankly, you do not know what you are talking about. Once you have verified those references, please come back and tell us what you have found or what else you need to know.

As someone with absolutely no qualifications in psychology, I'd say you were acting defensively to protect those you are close to and, potentially, are in denial. So less of the faux academia, go check the references please. Thanks.

87.80.123.22 21:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Channeling and the BKWSU
I re-introduced the reference to channeling removed by Duality Rules but modified it slightly.

The reason for this is that BKWSU distinctly involves spirit channelling. The knowledge and practise was originially taught by a channeled spirit that continues to communicate through BKWSU mediums. The practise of its meditation is to focus one's mind on this channeled entity and become a conduit for its energy. The BKs state this channeled entity is God but we have no evidence for this and it is hardly likely to be found, given or accepted by other religions.

This makes the BKWSU and its practise of meditation distinctly different from other schools and the general perception of what constitutes mediation. There may be a question of what is spirit channeling, does it only apply to the Medium (spirituality)|mediumship]] of the senior BK sisters that channel this spirit - or does it apply to the general practice of BK followers that consider themselves to be channeling the energy of this being into the World? But it is incontroversial that this is what they are doing. Whereas what is generally understood to be meditation involves the concentration of one's mind onto inanimate objects such as candles, designs or mantras, BK Raja Yoga involves psychic or mediumistic channeling.

There is also evidence from their own writings to suggest that they believe that the channeled entity is able to enter into individual BKs and perform acts or influence situations.

195.82.106.244 09:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I missed your post down here and expounded above in the introductory sentences thread. To reiterate, the BKs focusing on self as Soul and Shiva as Supreme soul is no more channeling than Christians communing with Jesus, or contemplating the lives and works of other saints, or the Father Himself.
 * Duality Rules 09:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Compromise: Channeling here means that the medium (chariot as it is called in BK philosophy/tenets/beliefs) Dadi Gutlzar is communing with the Supreme Soul or God and Lekhraj Kirpalani (founder).


 * Then I think we need an insert as to Brahmababa the combination of the Supreme Soul/God and the founder I believe. Unless I didn’t pay close attention to my teacher but I do believe I got it right.  So, I do think we need to explain that one too.  So, I would say that the above compromise could work given that yes, most Christians, Muslims don’t contend that there is one location where God inters a Chariot (medium…eye witness accounts state that they see an obvious facial expression change in Dadi Gultzar when this happens) to deliver direct messages to the organisation or  individuals from the Prophet or say Jesus.  If it were so can you imagine the lines to get ones dire questions answered!  So, the BKs are unique in this sense.


 * Now, the other side of the coin is that if an individual has a pure heart, is totally committed to God, they could very well have had a unique experience if all was well. As with frequencies, radio waves perhaps others that have stated they didn’t feel they met God perhaps went on a bad frequency day or the Channel was off, or tuned in to the wrong channel?  So, I won’t discount someone’s sincerity in the belief that they had a unique experience and hold true to that even post BKs. I say this in that they may very well be peaceful loving individuals post BKs just simply dropped off the dogma and still in pursuit of living a positive life. So, I am respectful of an individual's sincerity and their ability to continue to be loving even after such an experience.


 * So, this below needs some work too.


 * Followers believe that this Supreme Soul or God and Lekhraj Kirpalani continue to be channeled on a regular basis by a senior sister at the headquarters in India, and that Lekhraj Kirpalani's soul will reincarnate as Hindu god Krishna in his next birth.


 * Oh, and perhaps a mention that many years ago other Senior Sisters were also “Chariots” but it caused confusion as to the messages and the practice was stopped leaving only Dadi Gultzar as the official “Chariot” (medium).


 * Peace to all…TalkAbout 16:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi.


 * I dont think any group advocates channeling as a method of spiritual advancement. How did this Gulzar become the channel for their spirit guide? Was she taught it or was she just spontaneously possessed by their spirit guide? The topic article and links also reference other BK sisters being possessed and channelling [ and being used as trance mediums. Were they taught it or did it happen spontaneously?


 * You raise an interesting question that I wonder if you had ever considered.


 * I am very resistant to the topic decline to adopting unquestioningly the Organizations self presentation PR. They say " The God Father ". How many other religions are likely to agree, on the basis of what we know about them and their teachings, that their spirit guide is their and The One and Only God? Best to play it safe and not pander to them until they provide some citable sources.


 * 195.82.106.244 17:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I added the closest link to a reference to the channelling of energy through the BK follower and into this world. Its close to the end of this article. 195.82.106.244 02:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Jesselp Discussions
Jesselp: Greetings all sorry for the delay, been quite busy and will be so just goiNG to answer what i can for now bases on what there is on "mytalk". The thing about the poster and distruction are thats fair enough, but this was in 1967 and its not somthing they give a date to, not sure about it been given in a trance.

If abuse is not in the hand of the instution then does it have be to said? Suicide happens not just in the Bk instution... it;s increasing through out the world, so not sure how that can be the cause of the instution.

Physical abuse and mild torture(Jagdish), you might want to check up on the context, are you sure it was not the members whom were getting abuses etc.

in all fairness i think it does not matter what you write to be honest, regardless of age etc etc and any other issues you might wish to come up with. i know for from experiance from previously living in a center myself, that the people are genuin, honest, and are not "out to get you". in cambrdige, uk, the center has been doing work with cancer victims (basically getting them to think positivly about the situation etc etc so they dont feel like a victim ), and the local hospital is thinking of colabarating with the BKs there. and i hear that they are putting on a large event in london that involves ppl to learn to experiance peace of mind. and they offer course like stress free living etc etc, they work with the UN, in contact with many goverments now, and you all remember the Tsunami, the local goverments gave responsablity in regards of distrabution to the institution. they put on retreats in oxford for guest etc and guess what it;s all for free, all the events etc. ofcrouse anywhere you go you are going to get a few bad eggs. and in one of there P.R booklets (may be on there website too) theres a letter from Prince Charlse (next king of england) saying that the instution is doing a good job etc. im not trying to convince you of anything because you have the right to think what you wish to think. but i;m sure there will come a time were you have to stop looking at the bad eggs and start to look at the postive things that they do, do. Wish you all the best. Jessel

p.s. you might want to look up Janki Foundation (a foundation started up by on of the directors of the institution)and put that in with your studies of the BKs?

87.80.123.22 said check the refrances in regards to my comment about things being nonscence.

just because something is referenced or from a source that does not mean it's correct or is an accurate source

your reference for child abuse a personal assessment it can be already be said be be bias a personal assessment...great reference and look at the email address Yahoo? whats that about. any Joe Blogs could have written that he/she not even a professor. who is he/she anyway?

"Child Abuse and Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University (Raja Yoga)

A personal assessment of child protection in BKWSU, documentation of proven risk, abuse disclosure and the ongoing campaign for child protection provision.

June 2004

By E Romain

xbker33@yahoo.com" http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~eromain/childprotection.htm http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~eromain/

case of the bk Berlin psychologist, who went suicidal, one person out of how many? bks all be suicidal then right? i think there are still German Nazis....so the whole of Germany must be Nazi's too, of course it does make scenes and it's soo logical. and in the USA what about KKK hmm all Americans must hate blacks.

i have also looked at the references of sites you have referenced ((http://answers.google.com/answers/main?cmd=threadview&id=206345) and their references comes forms pages such as "maxpages.com" whats all that about? can you really count a personal pages as valid?

you have you make one thing clear to me, what it that they are trying to grain? money? a lavish life style? sex? power? health? i dont get it what exactly are they doing, because the cases that are mentioned there is like a single example. or are they simply "out to get everyone"?

so 87.80.123.22, yes i can see your references and some are ok but a lot of them are weak.

by the way can you lot not register and have names instead of numbers...

peace Jesselp

Dear Jesselp, I would like to take issue with your comments of the Child Abuse Report by Eromain and the personal jibes in trying to discredit him. I hope your exams went well.
 * First, someone was kind in placing the Child Abuse Report in the critical section as it is all verifiable as the report provides the letters from the organisation to Eromain and the letter from the student that brought this to his attention. I read the full report and please trust that things aren’t just placed there for fun, but rather for genuine information from verifiable sources.
 * Secondly, if you do not know who he is then you must go back and see that he gave many years to the organisation, had a highly regarded position within the organisation and was also a child in it. This shows me that you do not fully know the organisations history and are merely defending it from feelings.  I doubt that you read the full report otherwise you would have written in earnest to the organisation yourself to see if children and their well being are protected since you mentioned you are studying psychology.
 * Thirdly, I commend Eromain for taking the time (years by evidence in the report), energy, diligence to see that children are protected (WORLD WIDE) and not allowed to be abused by an organisation that chooses to blame the victim (A CHILD) and do nothing. He was a teacher within the organisation and has proven to be a more worthy one out of the organisation being that he chose not to look the other way and do what others within the organisation should have seen as their moral obligation to the protection of children entrusted in their care.
 * Fourthly, are these individuals still there, have they continued their pedophilia unchecked? Do you believe it is the KARMA of the CHILD? Would you blame the child? When you come back with a link stating that they publically apologised to the victims and that those responsible have been ousted or prosecuted we will be more than happy to have you place the link in.  As nothing would please us more as to send a message to perpetrators that sexual ABUSE of CHIDREN is wrong.
 * As to Heide Fittkau-Garthe, Near-Death Experience/Heide Fittkau-Garthe, 1998 well this shows the clear problems of a sub-sect coming from one that is "Deity" based. So, please do read all the sources and then come back and debate the issues.

Regards,TalkAbout 06:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay i have read it and in all fairness there is no way that i can guarantee that it;s either false or true, i;m sure things were elaborated as it's coming form a bias view. I'm quite sure that person T, whom said he was the only one to write a book on celibacy, is a lie, because there was a book published in regards to celibacy by jagdish. so what should i think about the rest of it? and i have not said anywhere that child abuse is correct or wrong, that goes with out saying. nor have i mentioned anything of karma.

...clear problems of a sub-sect coming from one that is ..." yes that's a point, but again ONE bk goes suicidal, one out of how many? and the people who burnt themselves i;m sure non bks have burnt themselves to death too.

But in regards to seniors and other bks abusing etc i do think it;s a minority if any, i have stayed with senior and non senior bks when i was younger in their homes or centres(+in India 2). and i was not touched. and if this did go on as much as it is being painted to be, then a peaceful or nice atmosphere (that people comment on when they come) would not be able to be created in the centres, its just the law. lust/sexuality = peacelessness. non-lust/"purity" = peace. the nature of the soul is peace. anyway these people would have been removed from their posts if such things happened. a persons personality actually changes either slowly or quickly and un-noticeable to that person. There research by Tim Kasser 2005. looking at the values of materialistic and non materialistic people and it suggests that people who are more materalistic do have sex and the non materialistic ones tend not to, as these are either spiritual or communal people. and there is past evidence showing that materialistic people experience more physical and mental problems compared to non-materialistic. kind of, off topic but i thought that was interesting.

and you have not explained why prince Charles has said that the bks are doing a good job. or why the CIA whom did an investigation into the BKs have said that’s they are okay, (bks were in connection with the late Pope, so CIA had to do an investigation into the bks) so the CIA which gets millions  of dollars of investment can not do their job?

what they do and what you say does not add up.

i have done my best to answer your questions and comments and i think it;s just fair that you start replying to my previous questions and comments within their context!! and i have made good "arguments" to your questions and not seen any changes >.<

Like i said before, of course there is going to be bad eggs, any where and everywhere. but to then hold them up and say look this, the bks do this and that. when they are only a minority. i suppose then Germans must all be Jewish haters. because there is minority of them around so the whole country must be too. Of course not! This is what children do in high school, I’m sure you can think back to high school days and think of many such examples

one thing you must explain is that they are after? your children? money? home? health? or are they simply just "out to get you"? WHAT?

SO when will we start to be more positive about the bks? i am guessing that most of the posters on here and the people who created this are former Bks, other wise you would not bad mouthing something you don’t know about/experienced. let me ask you something who is the creator of your life, who is it that make the final decision as to what you do. it's you right? the amount of money you have in your bank is because thats how much YOU done to earn it, whether it be a small amount or large amount ultimately it was your choice. would you not agree? your noting to blame your lecture if you fail an exam. The same goes with your feelings and too about the bks. blame is just another other way to not take responablity of what goes on with yourselves.

peace Jesselp

Dear Jesselp, PeaceTalkAbout 19:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I do believe that “T” was referencing to celibacy as taught to children and also the BK tenent of being neither female nor male but cherishing the “FEMALE” aspect as only females are leaders within the organisation and they are the only ones in charge. So, I do believe he is correct in stating that he is the first to write about it from a child’s perspective and the damage done by said tenents.
 * The “Deity” aspect does create problems when individuals return to society. In psychology I am sure you are familiar with the God Complex!
 * As to Prince Charles do write him and ask.
 * As to the CIA giving clearance to the BKs I don’t know of such a report, please provide a link. My understanding of clearances for Heads of State i.e., the Holy Seal is that it is done by the Secret Service and not the CIA.  My understanding from reading an article is that one US state did have the Brahma Kumaris under surveillance post 911 if I find the link I will provide it.  I didn’t think it merited being added as it didn’t provide the report nor the reason for this action.
 * As to “bks were in connection with the late Pope”, this I find to be far reaching. I see they have his photo on their website as if there were some affiliation and there is not.  As with all political events, they look as though they just said they wanted to give him flowers.  He was always a man that never turned anyone away even reaching out to his attacker in the assassination attempt.  I once got a ticket to see him, because I had good connections, took several photos and no I don’t claim to be “connected to him”.  I think it is ill advised to use the image of a world humanitarian to elevate an organisation.  The organisation should put forth their own work by which to be measured with out alluding to connections that are not there.  Please provide proof of said connections/affiliations.
 * As to the Jewish comparison I don’t think we need to go there. Please join the discussion forum @ www.brahmakumaris.info  to banter about that under their BK section for active BKs.
 * As to the positives? Well, I have tried to find a link or information on the work of Brother Nirvir who I understand was working on positive outcomes in pain management in India I believe. I realize that the organisation only promotes the women and so I am not surprised that I haven’t found anything.
 * As to what I seek? Freedom of information!  An informed society is a free society and one that is more likely to be at PEACE. Thank your for the open discussion.

I don't think its worth me carrying on with this, because you are avoiding to answer simple questions or acknowledge relevant points, and again taking things out of context. If you are willing to even think about what i have said then perhaps I'll come back, even though that i have acknowledged your criticisms but offered a different view point to them, still. in all honesty you know and i know it;s not exactly been a discussion as such, but more like i say one thing you say no no, what about x y z, then i answer them then you say no no no what about z y z with out even really commenting on the other stuff i have said.lol funny o' world we live in. Sometimes we can get stuck to our ideas and perception that's pretty much why it was not really much of a discussion. if you was to for a moment  leave this to the side and read what i have said then you would at the least acknowledge what has been said as have I and not take things out of context and avoid the questions i ask. mind you i do think the reason for there not being any process was due to my own attitude when writing. live and learn as they say. Or you already have your agenda's in regards to what you wish to present about the BKs, a sign of there not being any agenda's would have been that you would comment relevantly to what i have said. so you probably are former Bk's. if you were not then you would be open minded, but it's clear you have your agendas set out. which is okay i guess. I would recommend that you speak with jayanti or whomever you want to, about whatever "you" are upset about instead of doing what you are doing. you will feel better getting your emotions out, cause i know if you keep writing or hold onto negative things or judgements you also feel bad, it's common since. and as i am become a psychologist/ its my nature to offer this type of advice. and denial just makes it worse because if you what to sort whatever it is out, it becomes harder to see what the cause is.

But I have to say i have very much enjoyed all of this its been interesting too. All the best in whatever you maybe venturing now or in the future. Jesselp

"This is an objective definition of you and your religion." is it really objective? if you want to look back someone had added a few comments about the bks belifes etc about peace etc which was true, and it was not making them look either good, or bad and it was removed,Michael Billington how comes you removed it.lol J

Dear Jesselp, The comments as you cite are "comments". The comments of PEACE etc are accessible via the Brahma Kumaris "Official" websites. This is not an advert page. All links, both positives and negatives are there for all to click they choose. If you feel these "Official" Brahma Kumaris sites are not adequate please contact the BK IT dept., and state your complaints there. There are several BK sites to choose from here so it is a fair assessment as they are listed firt. So Billington was correct. PEACETalkAbout 17:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

the organisation only promotes women...."...the biggest ever UK event for men to discuss and explore..." Http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,,759017,00.htmlhttp://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,,759017,00.html you might want to look up other males apart from Nirvir, and you might just find some. neville hodgkinson perhapes, and there are theres to. J

Dear Jesselp,
 * The link provided was not accessible. As to Nirvir, I have read that he is well respected and is one of the most senior yogis. As to Neville Hodgkinson I find this interesting since I read that his wife was promoting celibacy and then opted out of the marriage once Neville became deeply involved....not too many marriages will sustain these teachings/tenets. In one interview he seemed surprised and a bit saddened by his marriage ending.  I also take issue with his take on HIV doesn't cause AIDS theory.  Say, like I mentioned do join the chat as this really is more for sources etc.  I think you would have fun there and there are other BKs there too.
 * The one thing that perhaps was over looked in this page which I will have to research is the churning/thinking, like you are doing here. The fact that this seems to attract thinkers that want to go deeper into the GOD explanation of things.  So, thank you for bringing that aspect out. PEACETalkAbout 17:52, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear T-alkabout, Thank you for your reply. Yes joining your forum would be good however i am answering questions in regards to the context of the bks on wiki,(but yes there has been expansions...abit), and regardness of there being bks here/there or not is not a factor, i dont consider myself to be a bk, but i respect what they do. Its not best to take things at face value and thinking is needed, espcally if there is some form of confusion in myself.

In regards to your comment, there are people who are married and are still in involved with the Bks, and not ALL marriages last regardless of weather they are bks or not, people get divorced after 50 years or days of marriage whom are not bks. i don't think Neville's situation can say that a BK life style can not support married couples. And as weather his device has anything to do with his involvement with the bks or his Work life...,as he was quite active back in the days with his work. There tends to be a number for reasons for divorce, and its not always down to one particular factor. even when the other half finds out that their partner was cheating on them, they still may stay together. If a Devorse did take place due to someone talking on a bk life style, then that is not down to the life style adopted, but down the fact that their partner does not like that he/she has changed. People get married to the person (this involves his or her life style or ways of doing) so the reason for a divorce would have been because that person has changed his or hers life style and this may not suit the other half, also partly down to a controlling factor. It's a reality people dislike change, they like "you" just as "you" are, and if someone was to change whether it even be for good or bad,regardless, people dont like that, ofcrouse in the right context. Your smart and you bring up good points.

And well if you have read that about Nirvir, obviously they are doing a good job promoting him, especially if that someone is in the uk, where Nirvir has nothing to do with...so i hear.

J

Dear Talkabout, Did not see the comment above the comment, yes i'm sure the stuff on peace is on there website, but it is also on the same page as the stuff that you took Destruction etc etc from. so you can not include some part of their teachings/philosophies and not others, As you are doing, this would suggest, thing are not being seen in an objectively manner, but quite the opposite. do you now see the point which i am making. Not everything is about distraction and what not, actually only a small part is in comparison to the rest, most of what they teach is about, doing this and that, become like this and that, become free from this that and the other(internal dependencies usually), with a  positive flick. As you know they have classes in the morning, what do they teach there for 1 n' half hours 7 days a week, 6:30 - 8a.m? destruction is coming?, Screw your family and friends if they are not bks? abuse little children? And there is a peaceful or calm atmosphere in the BK centers. The two don't go together. Like in a club you have music "pumpin", drinks, dancing, the atmosphere is lively and exciting, or buzzing as its called. there is not going to a peaceful atmosphere is there, is there?. Well at least i have never been to a club or Bar to find a calm or peaceful atmosphere. have you?

J

p.s. noticed the boxing and highlight of a bit of text above, i'm not quite sure if thats being objective...taking things out of context i think thats being objective >.< :)

Dear Jesselp,


 * First, let us keep our language civil when making a point. When you eventually graduate and deal with clients you must take care not to use inflammatory remarks.
 * I would like to inform you that I am not a member of that forum and it is not “my” forum.
 * One doesn’t have to be an ex-member or current member to research a topic or area on the wiki or to make a salient point and an objective one at that.
 * The wiki serves as an information tool and thus it can not serve as a PR tool for the organisation.
 * Please refrain from removing the names by which the organisation is known. I have done 2 Rev. Edits due to action from you.
 * If you would like to visit the DIVORCE page and make comments there you are most welcome to do so.
 * The page in its present form is fair and balanced. If the organisation’s links or positives had been omitted than I could see a need for more research to balance things out, but the links are there and the information is accessible.
 * As to the DESTRUCTION aspect, please feel free to provide an official document from the organisation saying they have never taught this, don’t believe this and that the murlis making references to this are wrong and provide the link on their web page to settle this. Can you do this?
 * If you find pertinent links or information please provide as previously stated to you. New relevant information is always welcomed.  PEACETalkAbout 16:09, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Dear Talkabout, thank you for your reply, I am unaware of me saying that Bks do not mention anything about distruction. The devorse comment was in relation to your comment on Neville.

Some links for you below for you

http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/hindu/ascetic/brahma.html http://www.hgof.ns.ca/index2.php?function=viewevent&item=1045 http://www.interfaith-center.org/Oxford_Directory/Oxford_directory_files/BrahmaKumarism_files/BrahmaKumarism.htm http://www.ivofhope.org/ here is somthing that they will be doing in wembley arena for 12,000 people. http://www.just-a-minute.org/

bk & UN http://www.bkun.org/news/index.html

events they hold for Men

http://www.bkwsu.org.uk/page5_courses(3).htm http://www.bkwsu.org.uk/sam/

Look at talks that they offer, anager management stress free living etc http://www.globalretreatcentre.com/events_guide/talks/default.htm http://www.bkwsu.org.uk/page5_courses(3).htm

education program http://www.bkwsu.com/whatwedo/globalinitiatives/spiritualeducation.htm http://www.livingvalues.net/ http://prod.bkinfo.net/pv/Events.aspx <retreats for educational ppl.

health http://www.ghrc-abu.com/ http://www.jankifoundation.org/home/index.php

look under World Spiritual University about half the way down, http://www.crdi.ca/fr/ev-88048-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html

Interfaith, (working with other Religions etc)

http://www.bkwsu.com/whatwedo/communityoutreach/interfaith.htm http://www.cam.net.uk/home/Nimmann/spirit/SPIRIT.HTM#bk

This also reminds me, if you can get a copy of the video of the popes funaral service, at the front with other religous leaders the Bks also had someone representing them(can miss her dressed in white). and these are seats at the front.

And if you are investigating somthing and only using the internet...thats not in all respects propper research is it?

If you have Bitter feelings about the Bks and feel annoyed or blame them for your own personal issues, then understand that everything you feel and think is created by yourself. The way you feel if someone mentioned your mother, or loved ones name would be diffrent then lets say to someone you disliked. that is your creation. You may feel good thinking that you have got back at them, but in actual fact you are fueling that annoance. You can choose to feel Happy

But the fact that they work with the UN surely must say to you that they are a decent organisation,No? this is the United Nations, A Gigantic International Organisation. repected and known by every country. J

Dear Jesselp,

I have looked at the above links provided and will be putting in "The Janki Foundation for Global Health Care under the BK links. I will research further then place findings under "Achievements". The other things are accessible via the other BK links on the page.

Please note that all the resources are not all internet based. Please see bottom of page. As to the funeral yes, I do have a copy and no there is no affiliation ties by someone who attends anothers funeral. In politics one has to gain an official up to date endorsement (in writing) before one is allowed to say they are supported by x or y (connected to) and is required to keep it current as to not have such miss understandings. In business pratices a similar process is followed. Thank you for providing the resources.

As to the UN I will send off a letter next week asking about how they "work" with the UN or better yet can you provide said documents on any website? So, is the BK position that HIV doesn't cause AIDS too? As I noticed that the UN is frequestly working on this issue with world governments. Oh, thank you for being polite.:)PEACETalkAbout 23:09, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * In brief response to Jesselps comments ;


 * Just for the record, the USA Secret Service has the BK's down for laundering money and smuggling drugs. Actually, I think the drug allegation is erroneous but due to certain members attempting to smuggle drugs via the centres. No exactly the fault of the organisation.


 * Yes, the BKWSU does sit in morning class being told that Destruction is coming day in day out except for Thursdays during the Avyakt Murlis. It used to be 40 years, then 50 for Destruction, then 50 to 60 ... we are now in the 70th year.
 * Why does the BKWSU not publish the original unedited Sakar Murlis so that others can honestly judge what they teach and believe?
 * E.g. God Shiva says ; You [ the BKs ] and the pure ones, the rest of the world are completely impure; you are the Brahmins / the top knot, the rest of the World are Shudras / Untouchables; you are the holy swans, the rest of the world vicous storks, those BK that leave Gyan are " lower than the lowest of the low "; you are enlightened, the rest of the world are ignorant; all the founders of the religions, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha must come to the BKs to learn religion, do not put pictures of Brahma Baba in the centres etc. Sound familiar?
 * The article is accurate and does not need to be changed.
 * As far as Prince Charles and the Vatican ... what does that mean!?!? The first " King Tampon " screwing a married woman all the way through his marriage to a virgin girl - that is very BK, the second Nazi collaborators that probably only run a close second in terms of number of victims of genocide to the Nazis [ and let's not mention their institutional denial to child sex abuse either, they must feel very at home with the BKs ]. What are you talking about!?!
 * The only thing it comfirms is that the BKs are playing the same game trying to climb the slippery pole of power and politics.
 * 195.82.106.244 06:14, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Dear TalkAbout, Thank you for your reply appolagies for late respone, and yes i do appolagise for begin "unprofessionalism" the previous time.

195.82.106.244|195.82.106.244 (p.s we like names on here) Thank you for your comment. to your frist what do i say about that. the classic line of "Evidance?". If you can provide a valid source that would be good. your second comment, perhase you did not read the things above when i had mentioned that i  have experiance of the BKs, class, the people etc. 3, you would have to ask them, but i belive that the origanls would be 15 pages long,and impractical in regards to time. as for the rest im sorry but i dont fully understand. perhase it;s because i have not been on here for a while and forgotten the context.

And i would like to suggest a change from the title of JesselP to somthing else like, a diffrent view point/perspective, or somthing along them lines or whatever you feel/think is aproprate. Jp

Jesselp, Please place four ~ after your contributions and don’t blank out the page. This will facilitate better discussion and keep a good on-going record of who stated what. It is also not approved of by the wiki folks if one wipes out the discussion page. I HAVE TAKEN THE TIME TO RESTORE ALL THE IMPUT SO IT IS OK NOW. PEACETalkAbout 20:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

hi i dont know what to say, I'm not Blanking out the page. Why would i when there was this big discusion part, andi would agree it would facilitate in better discussion other wise we'd be going round and round. Jesselp

Jesselp, It must have been an oversight while doing a reply. Please place four ~ after your name to date/time/stamp your replies.TalkAbout 19:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Dadi janki, Janki foundationArchiving due to deletion on Jesselp page
Thank you for experimenting with Wikipedia by creating the page Dadi janki. Your test worked, and has been or will soon be removed. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia.  (aeropagitica)   (talk)   12:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do not recreate empty articles! If you have nothing to say at the moment, then please develop the articles either on your computer or in a Sandbox where they will not be edited.  (aeropagitica)   (talk)   13:57, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Links
Removed link to interfaith group as this was not what the reference given refers to.

The article doe snot need to be an All and Everything about BKWSU. There are search engines for that. The reference to bringing together of parties refered to the meeting of the major Shankacharyas in India not local interfaith groups which the BK has always infiltrated as platforms to promote their beliefs.

Removed particular because the link is the usual BK PR whitewash; e.g. " the Founder of the University, Brahma Baba, was a visionary who felt that God was inspiring him to work for world change ".

The founder Lekhraj Kripalani did not " feel that God was inspiring him ", Lekhraj believed that Shiva has decended into his head and was talking to others, and giving psychic experiences, through him.

Big difference.

195.82.106.244 14:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

.244, I stand corrected, I guess I was trying to find at the very least one other thing that was not fluff in response to Jesselp. Sorry!

has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Smile to others by adding {{subst:smile}}, {{subst:smile2}} or {{subst:smile3}} to their talk page with a friendly message. Happy editing! PEACETalkAbout 14:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

PBKs
P.B.K. http://www.shivbaba.org.pl/ P.B.K. websites. http://www.shivbaba.ca/ http://www.creator-creation.com/ http://www.rajayoga.org.pl/ http://www.rajayoga.org.pl/en/?name=vocabulary dictionary of Raja Yoga terminology. PBK Believing himself to be a reincarnation of Lekhraj Kirpalani's business partner, Virendra Dev Dikşi split away from main body of the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual Organisation to form the Adhyatmik Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya or " P.B.K. movement " after being barred from B.K. Raja Yoga centres. He continues to teach and is considered to be the true channeler of the guiding spirit or " God " they and the BKWSU call Shiva Baba. Followers call themselves " PBKs ".

Below is what the PBKS keep inserting.
 * The above are all the links to the PBKs where people can access all the PR beliefs.
 * A sub-sect is one that comes from an original sect. Which you acknowledge in your PR items below! So, there is a logic loop here?
 * There is no University unless you mean the Knowledge base which started with the BKs and which the PBKs are churning. As you know the PBKs depend on past BKs murli's so once again re-inforcing the sub-sect issue.
 * PBKs Please keep in mind that this is not a PR wiki.

I would like a discussion as to adding the below with some corrections if needed.


 * PBKs believe the first level is basic knowledge, which the BKs become instrumental in delivering. The second level is advance knowledge, which the PBKs believe they instrumental in delivering. They believe both levels of knowledge are taught by the one father Shiva and Brahmins. They believe both BK and PBK families are really the two halves of just one godly family.


 * Brahmins who are in Prajapita Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University - BKs, recognise Shiva as the mother in the body of Dada Lekhraj (alias Brahma Baba). They refer to themselves as Brahma Kumar/Kumaris (BK), which means "Sons and Daughters of the Mother" (Brahma means "great mother").


 * PBKs - Brahmins of Adhyatmik Ishwariya Vishva Vidyalaya, recognise both Shiva's role as the mother played through the body of Dada Lekhraj and also Shiva's role as father, teacher and supreme guide played through the body of Virendra Dev Dixit. They refer to themselves as "Prajapita Brahma Kumar/Kumari" (Sons / Daughters of Father and Mother).

'''The above would help in basic separation of beliefs. .244 I do believe the above would be helpful.PEACE'''13:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

__________ PBKs (properly known as "Adhyatmik Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya") are not a sub-sect of the Brahma Kumaris organisation (properly known as the "Prajapita Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University/Organisation).

The PBKs and the BKs are the two parallel halves of one university created by the Incorporeal Supreme Soul Shiva, who operates on the earth during 100 year confluence age through his two chariots (human bodies).

One of these chariots is fixed and permanent; the chariot through whom the role of Father is played. Father is called Prajapita, Ram Bap, Adam or Adidev. The second chariot was temporary and was the body of Dada Lekhraj, also called 'child Krishna'. The permanent chariot is present at the beginning and at the end of Confluence Age (two births of the same soul). The temporary chariot is present in between the two births of the permanent chariot.

During the Confluence Age, Supreme Soul Shiva himself gives the knowledge to human souls and creates two levels of this knowledge. The first level is basic knowledge, which the BKs become instrumental in delivering. The second level is advance knowledge, which the PBKs become instrumental in delivering. Both levels of knowledge are in truth taught by the one father Shiva and Brahmins of both BK and PBK families are really the two halves of just one godly family.

The difference between the two halves of this family is in their ability to recognise of roles of Shiva.

Those Brahmins who are in Prajapita Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University - that is the BKs, recognise Shiva as the mother in the body of Dada Lekhraj (alias Brahma Baba). They refer to themselves as Brahma Kumar/Kumaris (BK), which means "Sons and Daughters of the Mother" (Brahma means "great mother").

PBKs - that is Brahmins of Adhyatmik Ishwariya Vishva Vidyalaya, recognise both Shiva's role as the mother played through the body of Dada Lekhraj and also Shiva's role as father, teacher and supreme guide played through the body of Virendra Dev Dixit. They refer to themselves as "Prajapita Brahma Kumar/Kumari" (Sons / Daughters of Father and Mother).

Etymology of Sect
The word sect comes from the Latin secta (from sequi to follow), meaning (1) a course of action or way of life, (2) a behavioural code or founding principles, (3) a specific philosophical school or doctrine. Sectarius or sectilis also refer to a scission or cut, but this meaning is, in contrast to popular opinion, unrelated to the etymology of the word. A sectator is a loyal guide, adherent or follower. In essence it is more palatable than say CultTalkAbout 18:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

core beliefs
"core Millenarianism beliefs concerning the imminent destruction" need a Definition of core beliefs. and so mention other core beliefs. I have second thoughs as to wheather this is a core belief, or a belief,if it is what about other core beliefs such as Soul, which is down to be frist one the seven days course. Further research is needed or detail in this. i can not see how an establishment can gives the talks/lectures it gives, when its core belief is that. if that it the case explantions of how this works it needed. there needs to be more continuity, or fluidity. two diffrent pictures being painted in other words. jp

BK information technology team
Greetings! I am a member of the BK information technology team approaching you, on their behalf, regarding the content of the article about the Brahma Kumaris on the Wikipedia page. It is a fairly comprehensive article with a clear structure and leaves the reader with an appreciation of the effort that may have gone into its research. However, it is misleading in that whilst appearing to be authoritative, it is written in a way as to bias the uninformed reader against the organisation. In a number of places, use of disparaging language and a gross misrepresentation of facts gives the impression that the article hasn’t been written in good faith. An example of a straight untruth appears in the fourth paragraph under “Origins”, where the entry states that the community moved to Mount Abu in 1950 “mainly due to the religious resistance to its activities in Pakistan”. In fact, the group had become well-respected in Karachi, where local leaders tried to dissuade them from leaving. They moved to India at the request of relatives. Everyone has an equal right to contribute to this article and we respect that individuals have a right to express their opinions about the organisation. However, as the Wikipedia site is used by many as a reference for what they consider to be a neutral point of view, the existence of such a biased article is an issue that warrants attention. With respect to the rules that Wikipedia sets out for proceeding forward amicably, I look forward to engaging in discussion with you so that proposed changes can be reviewed before any implementation occurs. Having read the discussion pages, I plan to start proposing incremental changes to the page over a period of time.

In the first instance, bearing in mind the above and evidence of obvious questioning of neutrality in the discussion pages, we would like to re-instate the neutrality warning box. I hope that this is acceptable. Bksimonb 05:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)