Talk:Brazil/Archive 2

Spelling Standard
I'd like to suggest that we adopted UK spelling in the main article. This standard is used throughout most of the English speaking world, with the lone exception of the US. It is also used by internationl organisations, including the UN.--200.103.134.164 14:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That's biased. Even if you look at most country articles American spelling is used, your not going to force every single country article that doesn't have english as a language to use UK spellings, are you? And 67.2% of the English speakers in the world are American, and I can't possibly biased because I'm Canadian (well i can be 8-) ). Sum1else 15:36, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with user 200.103.134.164, the UK standard English is mostly used in international organisations worldwide, and would suit the article better if we are to make it standard.


 * 1. The U.K. spelling is not used in most international organizations. 2. Far more importantly: what matters is the guidelines that Wikipedia has adopted. These guidelines are crystal clear on matters like these: the article should be left as it is. --Justice for All 02:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

ANDRE 4 ROSIE
Add Бразил instead of ?????. Thanks.

The Topic is About Brazil, not about the Model of States used in the USA
Text says: Brazil is organizated as a federation based on the model created in United States of America, although the Brazilian states have much less power than the north-American counterparts.

It should be: Brazil is organizated as a federation. The Brazilian states have its own laws and etc, etc.

It is not good compare a country with other. The text above is a bad comparisson. If it is to compare, why not so, compare the model of states with, The Klingon Empire, or anyother else? No thanks! I am of opinion that these part of the text sould be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.138.44.127 (talk • contribs) 21:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It is not a just comparison; the creators of the Brazilian Republic wanted to have a federation based on the model of the United States. But you are right, it is quite misplaced. The topic is about the Brazilian States, not about the History of the Brazilian Republic...
 * Please have the honour of changing it. José San Martin 00:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Whoops, I see. This page is semi-protected. (Why? Recent vandalism?) So, I changed what you asked. Please have also the honour of registering yourself, if it's the case. José San Martin 00:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Favela picture
It seems that some users do not agree with the addition of the picture of Rocinha Favela. In my opinion this is a must, as this is an article about Brazil that ought to be exposing the poverty in the country as well, as it is definetly not a land full of Itaim Bibi's and wealthy districts. Readers of this article should see some of our poverty, in order to really know what is really going on in this country. That is just something that we cannot hide, we cannot close our eyes to reality.

I would like to remember that economically, Rocinha may be poor; it's additions to our culture however were always very important. As a Brazilian I am not ashamed of this picture and I really don't think that it depreciate our country. In honour to poor Brazilians, I shall be adding this picture everytime it gets deleted. Cheers, Cheiro de lysoform 01:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I don't see why the picture of a slum should be deleted. Wikipedia's not a Travel Agency, Its an encyclopedia. Repeat after me: E-N-C-Y-C-L-O-P-E-D-I-A. Rafael &quot;Banzai&quot; 04:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree with all comments. The picture should stay --Pinnecco 09:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

O Brasil não conhece o brazil
Let us not forget, fellow Brasileiros, that for Brasileiros there's no better culture than the Brasileira. The brazilian culture is garbage, "playas belas", "soccer", "popozudas" is all garbage. The Brasileira culture, with our artists, musicians, dances, the Frevo, the Capoeira, the Candomblé, the Gaúchos, and every other true original Brasileiro aspect is perhaps the only thing that should pride ourselves, filling our lungs so that we can say "Orgulho de ser Brasileiro". Viva a cultura Brasileira meus irmãos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.164.54.15 (talk • contribs) 21:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Guess that the true vandalism is protecting braZil instead of Brasil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brasilfreedom (talk • contribs) 14:29, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If you don't like the English language, what are you doing here in the English Wikipedia? Please, go to http://pt.wikipedia.org/ José San Martin 15:49, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Because most of brazilians use Wikipedia in English, sir. I do not intend to vandalize Wikipedia as this is very disrespectful to such a large comunity of incredible minds. What I really want is that brazilians like you think about how vandalized is our own culture, and moreover, what can be done in order to promote it.


 * All brazilians who can read this must have known other cultures better, and many of them prefer other civilization's aspects. I do not blame them, as they were gifted with all the free will necessary in order to choose whatever path they want to follow in their lifes. On the other hand, denying one's own identity is something that cannot be considered healthy, together with the fact that this is one of the many causes of the appaling conditions of our Brasil.


 * Let us use the English language as a tool to repatriate as many intelectual brazilians as we can, and grow together a better, stronger and culturaly unified country with the help of intelectual Brasilians. You have my invitation to contribute for a Brasilisation of Brazil. Will you join me, contributing to Brasilian articles, contributing for a richer Brasilian Wikipedia, as well as knowing better your own nation and peoples and recognizing how valuable they are, or will you just close your eyes to this sad reality pretending to be something you are not?


 * If you agree, what are you waiting for? Go show the world how much you enjoy being Brasilian. If you do not, I am really sorry for disrespecting your English, and all I can do is to hope that when you are reborn, it happens in the home of the culture you admire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.78.16.59 (talk • contribs) 23:36, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh. José San Martin 00:00, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Typical. My best wishes to you sir. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.78.16.59 (talk • contribs) 01:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay. José San Martin 01:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Please protect Brazil related articles from ufanism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.181.175.214 (talk • contribs) 07:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

(EconomistBR 21:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC))

The Brazilian page in english is very important, this is how the rest of the world first knows about Brazil, so let's keep this page as accurate as possible

Lithuanians
There is a factual error: Lithuanians are listed as Slavs which they are NOT. Let's keep the facts straight in order not to undermine Wiki's reliability. - 81.151.193.118 00:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)Martin


 * Corrected! José San Martin 00:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Conflicting Facts about Japanese Population.
Hello, I was doing some research on the Japanese people. In the section "Japanese Living Abroad" on that page, it states "The number of Japanese citizens living abroad is estimated to be over 1 million persons, according to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan. By country, the highest number, were living in the United States, followed by People's Republic of China. The number of person who reside in Brazil was the third largest and that of United Kingdom came fourth." When I came upon this page and looked in the section Demographics, it stated " ...and Japanese-Brazilians are the largest Japanese population outside of Japan (1.5 million)." Which is the true fact? Thanks. --PinkCrayon 21:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It must be checked more accurately, but I think both are correct. Probably anyone with japanese descent is included in this 1.5 million, while only born Japaneses are included in that 1 million. José San Martin 22:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It is important to mentionate the Korean descendants in Brazil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.26.60.28 (talk • contribs) 00:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with José San Martin. "Nikkei", as they're called in Brazil, are japanese descedant people and are counted among this 1.5 million. Dargor msg 17:29, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Emigration and Brazilians living abroad

 * Someone could make a comment on the emmigratory waves (outflow of Brazilians) leaving the country or temporarily living abroad. What are the largest Brazilian communities worldwide? Does anybody know these facts?

Article's Introduction - Brazil's Economy
Brazil's Article Introduction

In the introduction of the Brazil’s article there is the following phrase: “Brazil is home to both extensive agricultural lands and rain forests. Exploring vast natural resources and a large labor pool, it is South America's leading economic power and a regional leader”

Although it’s true that Brazil has an extensive agricultural lands and rain forests, it may lead the reader to the usual, but fake, view of the country. Brazil does not only have the biggest economy in South America. Considering the entire Latin America, Brazil has the economy almost as the size as Mexico (the 2nd) and Argentina (the 3rd) together. In the world, Brazil has the 9th or 10th economy. Please, see the link below.

It’s not likely that one country has such a big economy based only on natural and agricultural resources. The fact of the matter is that Brazil’s GDP has the following composition: agriculture: 8.4%; industry: 40%; services: 51,6% (according to CIA World Factbook).

GDP Ranking []

Please, help to clarify this so unknown and image distorted country.

Best regards, Flavio Rocha


 * Yes I do quite agree with you, the Brasilian economy is based mainly on the country's industries and services. However the main difference between Brasil and other South American countries is the vast land area available for development and plenty of natural resources. I do not really think that, considering the Brasilian population, the country would be so economically successful in Chilean lands, for instance. Therefore, I think that this statement is quite relevant. Let's see what do the others think. Cheers, Cheiro de lysoform 12:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The Total GDP PPP for Brazil's Economy has been revised and now stands at 1.808 trillion which raises Brazil to the 8th place in the top ten rankings overtaking Russia and Italy. At the estimated GDP growth rates Brazil should overtake France and the UK within five years from now. Link http://www.estadao.com.br/ultimas/economia/noticias/2007/mar/22/356.htm  User: WhiteMagick

Brasil.
Alot of people think that "Brazil" is a spelling mistake. I think that's why people keep trying to change it. Zazaban 01:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem is that "brazil" really is spelled wrong. I'm pretty sure that Brasil would sound just the same as brazil, but the anglophone countries don't care wether they are snubing our culture and preferences or not, together with a handful of anglophilic brazilians, to whom many times other civilization's cultures worth a lot more than our own. brazil is a romantism and it should be banned, simply because it never existed. Someday, perhaps, when the US dominate the Amazon, there may be such a thing as Brazil. While we still have our country in our hands, we should be doing everything we can in order to prevent cultural dependency which has already started to become a reality. We could be a candidate for 51st state, and this would be a funny and ironic thing because 51 is a very popular number in Brasil.


 * Our people enjoy Hollywood better than Brasilian cinema. Many youngsters do not know how true samba and Brasilian music sound anymore. Brasilian literature is being replaced by subliterature like Harry Potter and Dan Brown. And, to cap it all, the majority of intelectual people agree that brazil is right and Brasil is wrong, despite of the fact that "o Brasil não conhece o brazil".


 * The brazilians don't agree with me and think that "ufanism" is ridiculous, but it's a matter of time to see who is right. A country with strong cultural identity cannot be pushed around by anyone. Nevertheless, judging by how things are going, when it comes the time that Brasil represent a peril to the allies (and it sure will, as we have plenty of the fuel of life itself), there will be no need for a war on terror, as people will find it marvelous to be bullied.


 * Like stated before, my group and I will not be changing brazil to Brasil anymore, that's a promise as we respect the wikicommunity. This is a humble try to make people seize the Brasilian culture a bit more while it still exists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.58.195.68 (talk • contribs) 03:54, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you're a crazy nationalist if you're upset by a letter. Zazaban 17:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I don't see people vandalizing the Germany article because they think think it's insulting to called it germany when they call it "Deutschland". Why is Brazil so special? countries are called different things in different languages, and it will be a long and futile fight if you plan to change that. same goes for Zhonghua, Nippon, Polski and Italia. Zazaban 05:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't you mind when they call us ბრაზილია|? Isn't insulting to be treated as Բրազիլիա?José San Martin 12:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

< No problem with Բրազիլիա or w/e. These languages with ideograms may sometimes lack a symbol or leter that correspond to some names, like in Japanese, the don't have the sound "lee" and so on. So if they call us Basil in chinese, it can be justified. Considering the English language though, Deustchland sounds way different from Germany, as well as Nippon or Italia. The point is that Brasil sounds just like brazil, the Z is a unnecessary romantism, and proving that is your own statement that many people don't know wether it is Brasil or brazil.

However, you as foreigner may spell the name brazil the way you want, it will not make much difference, people even think that we are country in Africa called Argentina! I'm already glad enough that you came here and got to know a bit more about our country. Culturally speaking, now you know that Brasil is more correct although it really is written wrong. It's your call anyway.

Our problem, once again, is with brazilians who consider Brasil a sin in English language. It may sound a bit paranoic, but a brazilian who agrees with brazil so much might as well consider our very own culture garbage comparing to others or at least subconciously prefer other identities. The name brazil is the flag of the depredation of our culture and I'm very sad to see that some of my fellow Brasilians will fight for it until the end. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.78.10.89 (talk • contribs) 14:22, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we should in the very least mention in the main body of the article the spelling controversy.--200.140.231.216 16:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Does any English dictionary approved the s-spelling? Have any newspaper ever endorsed the s-spelling? If not, including a note about this claimed spelling controverse would be a blatant violation of the principle of No original research. José San Martin 19:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

< Following Jozé San Martin's request for evidences of spelling controversies, here are a few newspaper articles that contain the s-spelling:


 * A New York Times article, paragraph 4, line 2
 * A Forbes article, paragraph 7, line 2
 * A The China Post article, paragraph 3, line 2
 * A Turkish Daily News report, paragraph 1, line 6
 * An Eurosport.com article, paragraph 4, line 2
 * An Artdaily.com article, paragraph 2, lines 1 and 2
 * | A City Vision (South African news website) article, paragraph 12, line 2
 * A Motorsport.com (Canadian Automobilistic news website) article, paragraph 2, line 4
 * An article from the Pan American Health Organization, in the featured photo's caption
 * An article from the British website about diving Deeper Blue, paragraph 7, line 2
 * An article from the Northern Irish 4 Film & Video website, paragraph 2, line 1

The mistake is even commited by scientists all around the world, including some who speak English as a mother language, as seen in these articles from several scientific publications:


 * McIntyre P., Wheaton G., Erlich J., Hansman D.:"Brasilian purpuric fever in central Australia", in The Lancet Journal, 1987
 * Raffaelli, M., Koller, S.: "Future expectations of Brasilian street youth", in Journal of Adolescence, April 2005
 * Volland-Tuduri, N., Brossard, M., Bruand, A., Garreau, H.:"Direct analysis of microaggregates shrinkage for drying: Application to microaggregates from a Brasilian clayey Ferralsol", in Comptes Rendus Geosciences, August 2004
 * Foissner, W.:"Morphology and ontogenesis of Lambornella trichoglossa nov. spec., a new tetrahymenid ciliate (Protozoa, Ciliophora) from Brasilian tank bromeliads (Bromeliaceae)", in European Journal of Protistology, 2003
 * M. F. Benedetti, J. F. Ranvilleb, T. Allardc, A. J. Bednarb, N. Menguyc.: "The iron status in colloidal matter from the Rio Negro, Brasil", in Colloids and Surfaces A: Physicochemical and Engineering Aspects, April 2003

A few dictionaries aknowlledged the s-spelling:


 * This online dictionary states that indeed "Brasil" is a common typo for "brazil"
 * The online dictionaries dictionary.com and Wordnet have search results for "Brasil"]
 * The online dictionary thefreedictionary.com has a search result for "Brasil"


 * Note: everyone is free to check that we never stated that "Brasil" is official and that it is also the correct spelling for our country's name in English. Culturally speaking however, Brasil is indeed the correct form.

As seen in these sources (some from worldwide known newspapers), misspelling brazil with Brasil is bound to happen as Brasil and brazil sound just the same.

To the ones who are thinking that we are trying to change the English language, we'd like to say that this is not our goal as this is absurd. Once more, our objective in having replaced the z for an s was to make brazilian people think about how vandalized is our own culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.58.237.178 (talk • contribs) 22:43 - 22:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's interesting to see this discussion here because I always used Brasil instead of Brazil, intentionally, by the same reasons pointed by this person. Of course, while editing wiki articles, or whenever such unnapropiate writing is unacceptable, I use the Z, even considering it wrong.
 * I have to say that I quite agree with this anonymous user, despite of so much fuss about a single letter. Wether we like it or not, some things he said are actually true, and like suggested before, are worth at least a discussion about mentioning them in this article. The Brazilian culture indeed was once more valuable to Brazilians. Then, with the modernization of the telecommunications, I consider that we were overexposed to other standards and naturally some people fell in love with them.
 * I would also like to remember that the talk pages should be used for article-related discussions only, so you guys should consider talking about these issues in some sort of forum. I think that this struggle has already taken too many Kbytes ;).
 * Hope you guys reach a consensus soon! Cheers, Cheiro de lysoform 00:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't see an edit war in the denmark article because people think it's called "danmark". oh, and this is the english wikipedia, if you want to make a point to brazillians I suggest you go to the Portuguese version. and edit an article just to make a point is vandalism. Zazaban 02:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Dear Zazaban, how are you doing? Please say out loud "Denmark" and then "Danmark". Now say "Brazil" and then "Brasil". Please tell us now which pair of names sounded the same.


 * Another question for you sir, have we ever said that we were innocent? Yes, we did change the S for a Z, according to wikirules, it is indeed a sort of vandalism and we know it. We admit all that we have done here so far. Ok, it was not the best way of making a point, and we are sorry for other users.


 * I think that you will never understand why we did this because you are from the so called "dominant culture".


 * Why do you consider this an edit war? Have you seen "Brasil" in the main article in the past weeks? I don't see how that is possible because the article is well protected now. This is a civilized discussion, not a war whatsoever.


 * Thank you very much for your suggestion, but in Portuguese, Brasil is plain Brasil, there's no way we can make a point there. Moreover, the majority of "brazilians" are english speakers, you see. Making them furious about "Brasil" is making them think about our present conditions.


 * I shall not discuss this matter with you anymore because I already understood that you chose brazil. We have got no problem with that, that is our own fault as many brazilians agree with that as well. That's why I envy the Iranians, because now they are making themselves known as what they always were, Iranians, and not "arabs". They may have awkward politics and foreign policies, but they sure have the strong cultural identity that we lack.


 * Best regards to you, and please have a splendid week. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.58.206.155 (talk • contribs) 11:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

< Please note that this article is protected not due to your single edit, but due to a serie of vandalism edits. Please see the page history to understand what I mean.

You proved me that Brasil is indeed a typo for Brazil. Nevertheless, it's still original research. Spelling controversy is a conclusion you took when reading those articles. Reading WP:OR: ''All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia.''. Thus, even if you are/were right, it's not something that had been published and submitted to discussion in the proper scientific society. Wikipedia is not a proper place for discussing new theories.

Therefore, all this stuff is only valid in the article Alternative political spelling. Please note that the typo "Brasil" is already there.

Anyway, our country is much bigger than a single damned letter. José San Martin 22:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Dear José San Martin, thank you for your kind answer, and for clarifying such wikirules. We did not know that there existed such an article and indeed places like these are more apropriate for this discussion.


 * Honestly, do you think that this is worth an article (at least in Portuguese perhaps), about the depreciation of Brasilian culture in contemporary times? In an encyclopedia where there are articles like Tubcat or even The Smurfs and communism, I guess that it would not make much difference anyway. We care about your opinion - even if conflicting with ours - as an experienced and cultured Wikipedia user.


 * We were very glad to read your last statement. Best regards, Brasilfreedom 01:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Since many people interested in this debate are foreigners and thus don't have in-depth knowledge of Brazilian History, I want to add Brazil used to be officially called "Imperio do Brazil". To check this information, see the 1824 Brazilian Constitution in http://www.presidencia.gov.br/legislacao/constituicao/ where it’s published with the original grammar.


 * After the Republic was established, the country officially adopted "Republica dos Estados Unidos do Brazil" as its name. Yes, that's right. Brazil with a "Z". It surely gives us a very good explanation to why Brazil is spelt with a "z" in English - it's the way it was originally spelt in Brazilian Portuguese too. Later, of course, "Brasil" was incorporated by grammar reforms and "Brazil" was scrapped, though in other languages (like English) the original spelling was maintained.


 * Ironically, turns out spelling Brazil with a “z” actually supports the original Brazilian Portuguese roots and therefore in no way diminishes Brazilian culture.


 * Hopefully that puts an end to this discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sparks1979 (talk • contribs) 15:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It smells like trolling. And I am Brazilian. BraZilian. Daniel Trielli 02:35, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * What is it exactly you think smells like trolling? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sparks1979 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I wonder why they did not keep the Z in spanish then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.58.224.216 (talk • contribs) 00:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

< They didn't keep, they never wrote Brazil. The letter Z has a different value Spanish language. In the European accent, s is pronouced as s, and z is pronouced like th in thin. It  would be quite strange pronouce it like Brathil. Moreover, Spanish language preffers to write c instead of z, when the following vowel is e, i. Thus, they had to choose between Bracil (pron. Brathil) and Brasil and they obviously chose the latter. José San Martin 14:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * French Brésil, Italian Brasile, Spanish Brasil, German Brasilien... I think there's plenty of evidence that the original spelling was with an S. However, it is also true that the word was also spelled sometimes with a Z in Portuguese itself for many centuries. Later, it was recognized that the spelling with an S was the etymologically correct one, and that's why it is the one used in modern Portuguese. However, English is not bound by the orthographic conventions of Portuguese. FilipeS 20:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * White flag. Sirs do as you wish, like I said I shall not be editing this again, call it Brazil, Brasil, I do not care. Learned a lesson afterall, ok the letter makes no difference. My point is and always were, respect your own culture, for you were born here. You can not chop your roots off, or else you will get yourself into trouble. I know you like Brazilian stuff and so on, but a lot of people nowadays do not think so and I am pretty sure you know what I am talking about. peace. PS: Vote 50. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.58.209.141 (talk • contribs) 03:15, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Geographical determinism sounds like a really primitive and stupid thing to dictate one's views and lifestyle. It's a shame one can't chop off his roots nowadays, makes you wonder if you are really born free. Anyway, wikipedia is not a soapbox, and adding political campaigning to the end of your comments is ridiculous. This does not bode well for you if you consider being a serious editor and contributor to wikipedia. I sincerely hope you are capable of doing something useful instead of trying to further an agenda. Starghost (talk | contribs) 03:15, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * All this fuss because Brazil should be written with S and not Z? So far in english Brazil is written with Z and this article is from the English wikipedia - So be it. Brasil redirects to Brazil, and the article clearly explains the official name of our country in Portuguese. If you are willing to pick up a fight because of our country's name in other languages, then you guys should be ready for a big headache. Brazil in Mandarin is pronounced Bazhía, and in many eastern European languages (i.e.: Russian) Brazil is called Brasilia (thus conficting with the name of our capital).


 * If you want to make people more aware of Brazilian culture, instead of being a Troll about silly stuff like Brazil with Z or S, why don't you take the initiative of writing articles about Brazilian Folklore? (Saci Pererê, Boto Rosa, Cuca, Sítio do Pica-pau Amarelo, etc) --Pinnecco 08:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Many languages, English especially, stand out for having orthography which is strongly influenced by tradition and/or etymology. That is even clearer with place names, like Gloucester, for example. In a nutshell, English usually ignores phonetics and the practical use of a word and sticks with the traditional spelling. The ones who aren't familiarized with such concept, see the Great Vowel Shift article, for an example. So I think that sticking to the spelling Brazil is consistent and coherent with the English language tradition of keeping the orthography that was first spread and then officialized. And, in my opinion, this issue of Z representing some kind of dependency is overrated and paranoia. When writing in Polish, for example, should I not write the name of my country as Brazylia fearing that I will be nurturing some kind of Polish imperialism? And I think that there is some ufanism in the way some Brazilians protect our so-called "culture" (most times the examples given are only folklore). I think that Brazilian culture is not just frevo and samba. I think orkut and its deliciously nonsensical smart communities are a much better example of true Brazilian culture. And of that culture I am proud of, if you ask me. Not that only, of course. 201.24.97.43 06:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)Radek Piskorski

Delisted GA
This article has a few references, but i'm afraid not enough to make an article of this scope count as "well-referenced". The CIA factbook alone probably doesn't cover most of this article, and even if it does, relying on a single broad references to cover most of the article isn't very reliable. Also, nobody seems to of even reviewed this article in the first place, so that looks suspicious as well. Improve the number of references, and then try to re-nominate this article for Good Article status. Homestarmy 14:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Unrepresentative picture
However beautiful the southern Brazilian girls on this article, i think they give a very poor representation of the population of Brazil. There are only two pictures of Brazilian population: one of Olodum players and the other one of the girls. Besides the fact that even in the south such blonde people are not predominant, they're dressed with typical European costumes. Those people are immigrants that kept their culture, and are very small minority of the population. That is similar to choosing two pictures from the American population, one representing a Wasp, the other an Amish community. Furthermore, there is also a picture of a German style house. The influence of non-Portuguese Europe is surely present in Brazil, but is not that important. --Ezadarque 22:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Please return with the favela and police incursion pictures as well. This is not a travel guide, this is an article about Brazil, so it should be as genuine as it can be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.58.228.96 (talk • contribs) 22:41, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I give up.
It seems that everyone agree with the prestige that the German influence related pictures have in this article, so I think that we should also change the official language to German as well, as it looks as if we were colonized by Germans. What about pictures of Quilombos? Pictures of streets of favelas? Oh, right, they show a third-world country and therefore foreign people will not visit Brazil, and moreover, the people who would be related to these pictures are less Brazilian than those german ladies¿

Reading this article, one may also think, judging by posh office buildings shown, that Brazil is like Dubai. No contrast is being shown, right in the article of a country with perhaps the most serious social inequalty issues in the world.

The emphasis on the pictures of beaches also endorses the jargon of Brazil being a land solely of "Playas belas". Not that they are unnecessary - Brazil has plenty of playas belas - but we should add pictures of universities, Embraer workshops, Alcantara Space Launcher, or anything that could depict how advanced is Brazilian technology instead of filling it up with tropical scenarios.

Reality is harsh, you cannot deny it pretending that here it's all about parties, Olodum and beaches. People may think that I am making a fuss about nothing, but the pictures are what draw most of any user's atention while visiting an article - many reading only the sections with the most interesting illustrations.

But there is no need for worries. I shall not be replacing the current photos again. I also send my congratulations to user João Felipe C.S, for showing the world the real Brazil that I was unaware of. He is so right, that he added all these pictures without any discussion here first, and I guess that plenty of Brazilians agree with him having not protested at all. I give up then, but I am very happy though, because my country is so rich and I did not even know it!

Best regards,

From a Brazilian who seems to know pretty much nothing about his own country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.58.220.155 (talk • contribs) 20:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Dont give up. It seems to me that not everyone thinks those pictures should be there, I know I do not. This article will give the first impression of Brazil to thousands of people, we should really try to make it the most accurate possible. Let's try not to stereotype the population: I think the three pictures, the olodum players, the southern girls, and the indians give an idea of distinct ethnicities that is opposite to the reality of Brazil. Brazil is probably the country with more racial mixture, that is what should be pictured.
 * As Brazilian culture is concerned, I don't think that we should picture any museums. Brazilian culture is not famous for its museums, but for its music. I put a picture of a Carnival parade, which, in my opinion, would be the most representative, but I think that a capoeira picture is also pretty good. Ipiranga and MAC, however, are not well-known even within Brazil.
 * Furthermore, I don't think that Blumenau or Curitiba should be pictured. I really don't see the informational value for a foreigner that wants to know about Brazil.
 * Let's not forget that this article (as almost every article in wikipedia) is probably the most influential piece of information on the country. We should put regional vanities and nationalism aside and try to make a good text.--Ezadarque 01:04, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Tosh. This is the problem with Brazilians. Anything from the North and the Northeast is proudly exhibited as an icon of Brazil, no matter how non-representative, whereas people from Southern Brazil are never considered "Brazilian" enough. If THAT isn't racism, I don't know what is. What is the problem of including a few pictures from typical places in Southern Brazil? There's Olodum already (quite "African", uh?) and Indians. Now Blumenau is too much "European" for your taste? Well, I'm sorry, but it's in Brazil too. And many places in that forgotten corner of Southern Brazil are just like that, like it or not. Don't try to erase history and simply ignore the importance of Southern Brazil. 201.21.200.15 14:42, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you misunderstand my point. I am alson in favor of removing the olodum players, and the indians. That's not how most of our population looks like. I repeat, we are probably the most mixed people in the world, and an article should show what is particular of a country, not what is equal. There would be no point in showing that in Brazil the red light means "stop" in traffic, because that's the same all over the world. Similarly, even though those girls and the Blumenau house are in Brazil, they don't picture anything particularly Brazilian. Capoeira does. Carnival does. The contemporary art museum in Niterói does not. This article is not to show everything that is in Brazil, only the most remarkable about it.
 * If instead of the girls, a gaucho was pictured, it would be a lot more representative. So the problem is not that those pictures are from the south, only that they add a lot less to the understanding of Brazil than other pictures could.--Ezadarque 20:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I am not complaining about the German related pictures, and I do not think that they should be removed. I am against the prestige that they have in this article. There is more German culture depicted than African, and that is really unfair since there is more people and things related to Africa than to Germany in Brazil. Moreover, '''this article is not accurate as it does not show the poverty that exists in this country, which cannot be denied. Anyone who checks our country's streets with his own eyes will see how false is the idea of Brazil that this article conveys'''. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.58.197.20 (talk • contribs) 20:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Hipocrisy?
Wow.. what a beautiful place.. ppl must see the real brazil not only glamourized rocinha. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.79.32.19 (talk • contribs) 11:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Like stated above, I give up lad, let these people show the world how perfect our country is! Remember that favelas are very third-worldist, and we're so rich that they do not correspond to our reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.58.253.56 (talk • contribs) 21:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * why do this? You Know that USA have a crime rate times bigger than brasil? They said it to you? When they admin it, when everyone admit from were came all the guns used there(yes, they are not home made, here we control guns), than you can say it. Try to put the good side out. The bad things should be forgotten —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.164.85.254 (talk • contribs) 13:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * "bad things should be forgotten"... is this an encyclopedia or a tourism magazine? Oh well, you are probably just another troll. Sparks1979 15:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah this is ridiculous. This article indeed does not deserve the good article status, as many contributors seem to be alienated! And by the way the US may have bigger crime rates, but criminality is not part of their culture as it is in Brazil. Would you buy a Porsche Cayenne if you had the money? Many Brazilian people would answer negatively as they would be afraid of getting kidnapped while driving it. Americans would, however, not even think twice.
 * We live in something very close to a civil war, and people like you, who think that "bad things should be forgotten", make great contributions to the maintenance of this status. Try reading more sections of the newspapers other than sports and soap opera gossip, and you will see how perfect is your Brazil! Or even, go out on the beautiful streets of your city, and you'll see no homeless people and absolutely no poverty!
 * I belive that the truth is that some people seem to live in a paralel Brazil, from another dimension, and accidentaly got lost here, where we have a country so full of issues. 201.58.220.163 02:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

'''Brazil is indeed a country currently facing some very, very serious issues. It is, however, hypocritical to create a separate session for the country's social problems. There isn't a "social issues" session on Mexico's wikipage, for example. Nor in Argentina's one. But the most biased pages are those relating to the Anglosphere. You don't a read a single line about America's problems (and there are many, my friends, for nobody is perfect on this Earth), or Britain's controversies. -> A Brazilian.''' ---

S T O P the stigmatization of Brazil!!!!! I don't know why we are idiots enough to contribute with the Anglo-biased image of Brazil. Brazil: the country of coffee, favelas,carnival where people live in jungles???? Did you see the documentary produced by CNN about Brazil? It was the most biased, horrible and disgusting as its possible. That's why countries like South Africa, with 10% of the richness of Brazil appears so beautiful, while our country seems Somalia on television.


 * S T O P the stigmatization of Somalia!!!!!Boomshanka 21:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Bankruptcy
I heard that brazil decalred national bankruptcy long time ago after ww2. I don't know if there is any truth to that but it would be nice to know —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.108.138.142 (talk • contribs) 19:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * several times(2 or three), but honred its payment later. Just need someone to translate what is actually in portuguese under the economics topic —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.164.85.254 (talk • contribs) 13:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * "bankruptcy" is not a proper term for a country. I believe you mean "default"--Ezadarque 15:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

November vandalism
Flag Why is the flag shown the old republican flag from the 19th century? Makerowner 16:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * People have been destroying this page!
 * This is vandalism!!!! Please, lock this page for new users and non registered user!
 * Meyer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.24.179.28 (talk • contribs) 16:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Page DESTROYED Some vandals are destroying the page. I hope some administrator blocks this page as SOON as possible!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.68.203.246 (talk • contribs) 00:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes you are right, this article is very surreal. Hipocrisy at its best is seen here. Contributors neglect the poverty in this country, supporting the use of pictures that show only the rich Brazil!
 * Look at the size of the favela picture, and thus the importance of it in this article. The vast majority of Brazilians do not even know the wealthy districts of São Paulo or Ipanema beach, and what they do really know is how their neighbourhoods are lacking infrastructure. Instead of these rare Brazilian landscapes, the favelas, the Sertão, the outrageous criminality or the disgraceful health conditions of Brazilians should be put in evidence.
 * As long as Brazilians do not acknowledge how poor their country is, as well as how much they can do about this instead of pretending to be in Europe or North America, the Tupiniquim lands will remain in disgrace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.58.247.26 (talk • contribs) 23:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

There's a lot of vandalism Brazil article is being attacked by vandals. I think the article should keep closed to unregistered people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Opinoso (talk • contribs) 19:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Picture removed
Due to regionalism, the picture of South was removed. We shouldn't use this page thinking in a regional way. Brazil is much bigger than the south, and we should try to represent the country as a whole.

--208.24.179.29 18:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Too beautiful to be true
Where are the favelas, poverty and other common issues in Brazil? Are you trying to represent the Brazil you want or the real Brazil? I don't agree with this article! --201.27.181.198 10:11, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Brazil have less favelas or poverty than Mexico, USA and many others countries?Have you been in Brazil?So shup up!Brazil is not Africa or Asia. 89.124.154.99 00:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * False, both the US and Mexico have less porverty than Brazil. However that is not on discussion but the lack of this information in the article. AlexCovarrubias.
 * I have been in Mexico, belive me, there is 10 times more favelas than there are in Brazil, and I know that 30% of americans are poors isn't?And 80% of the population of the rest os the world live in a country more poor than Brazil (India and China alone have 2,4 bilions), why you don't want show your Bronx (I don't saw pic from Bronx or any american favela here in wikipedia). 87.192.59.201 12:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I've always thought so about this article. I wrote most of the related complaints above. Contributors won't listen though, they still believe that "bad things should be forgotten" and that Brazil is a rich place, while it is definetly very far away from this. I think we would better shup up (sic) and enjoy our wealthy place. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.78.18.221 (talk) 01:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC).
 * I have been in Mexico, belive me, there is 10 times more favelas than there are in Brazil, and I know that 30% of americans are poors isn't?And 80% of the population of the rest os the world live in a country more poor than Brazil (India and China alone have 2,4 bilions), why you don't want show your Bronx (I don't saw pic from Bronx or any american favela here in wikipedia). 87.192.59.201 12:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

You're probably a white rich/middle class Brazilian that doesn't know the poverty in which many Brazilians live, Brazil is one of the most unequal countries in the world, and you people only wanna show the "nice" part of your country. Supaman89

That, sir, was a very racist thing to say. I can't disagree, Brazil is indeed one of the most unequal countries in the world, especially the northeast region. But there is many incorrect data on this article. I suggest some scientific reading, instead of "guessing statements", suchs as the one regarding the amazon rainforest and erradication of species. There is a lot of misinformation about Brazil, and the main text certainly does not help. Any brazilian knows about the reality of his people. It's presumptuos to consider that you know best. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodrigomello (talk • contribs)
 * Guys, WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. Patstuarttalk 16:01, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Proclamation of Republic
From the main page: "In order to avoid a civil war between Army and Navy, Pedro II renounced the throne on 15 November 1889". This is quite different from what Brazilian schoolbooks register, and there are no mentions here or in the "History of Brazil" page about a civil war threat or a voluntary abdication. Can anyone provide a source for this? 201.52.26.10 19:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Phonetic Changes
"Portuguese as spoken in Brazil has developed independently of the European mother tongue, and it has undergone fewer phonetic changes than the language spoken in Portugal". Ok, now this definitely needs a quote. ptknight 18:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

A couple of points: first of all, it has nothing to do with “spelling standard”, as we are basically talking about sound change, which, in the case of Portuguese since the 16th century, has only marginally been captured by spelling reforms. Now, the sentence may indeed need a reference (or even a slight touch-up), although I should remind you that this information is pretty much common ground among linguists, so it wouldn’t be a big deal if there were no quotes at all anyway. Unchallenged verities hardly need quotes.Giorgioz 19:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed, I changed the topic to "Phonetic Changes".
 * My point it that you don't hear the same sound in other latins languages as you do in Brazilian Portuguese. In Portuguese, Spanish, French and Italian, the "l" in the end of a word sounds the same, but in Brazilian Portuguese sounds like an "u". "Emanuel" -> "Emanueu". If a word ends with "te", it's replaced by the sound "tchi", "contente" (happy) -> "contentchi" - another thing the other latin languages don't have. And there are a lot more examples. I find it hard to believe that Portuguese diverted from these so called original sounds, when they never existed in the first place in the other latin variations, where Portuguese got the biggest influences from. That's why I requested a quote. "[...] this information is pretty much common ground among linguists [...]", so I guess finding a quote wont be that hard. I myself have never heard or read this.
 * I did find an interesting book from a Portuguese phonetician, "Exposição da Pronúncia Normal Portuguesa" (Lisboa, 1892), "Exposition of the Normal Portuguese Pronunciation", that states quite the opposite (§§ 58 to 70). He says that the Brazilian pronunciation does not reflect the archaic Portuguese spoken in the XV century, but that there sure are some interesting facts regarding the lexicon, where in Brazil words kept their original meaning.
 * Anyway, I always thought that the different sounds came from the African languages spoken by the slaves (mainly from Angola, Sierra Leone, Guine, and so on)
 * FWIW, I'm Portuguese but I actually prefer the Brazilian accent - much more melodic - and I have no problems accepting this statement as long as it is the truth. If it is the truth, then I'm sure a lot of people won't know about this, which makes the reference even more important. Pedro Vaz 11:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Pedro Vaz

I don't think Portuguese from Brazil and Portuguese from Portugal are more different than Spanish from Spain and Spanish from Mexico, or Spanish from Cuba and Spanish from Peru, and yet we don't care listening to music in a Colombian accent, so I don't know why you make such a big deal about it, and try to show the world that you speak your own language, you can understand each other don’t you? Then you speak the same language that simple. --Supaman89

Information Out of Place
I do not think it is not necessary, or encyclopedic to say in the poverty section "Despite being a large country with extensive resources and a huge economy,". I think it is more than enough to say "Brazil currently has more than 22 million people living in state of extreme poverty" Chico 03:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Tendency to whiter answers
These IBGE numbers are biased, people in Brazil have a great tendency give answers closer to the white end of the spectrum, for example, black people tend to answer they are mulattos, and mulattos tend to say they are white. I am not saying every person will answer that way, but some do; and the questioner has to write as they say, even if a black person answer they're white. Anyone who knows Brazil knows these number are way of mark, and I think the article should reflect that, I am going to change it again and I hope it is not regarded as vandalism again. Chico 03:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Is it not the same way in the United States (to an extent)? Just the complete opposite? Even "if" the numbers were biased WP:NOR doesn't allow us to refute their census data. Shakam 03:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

All right I'm going to travel today so I don't have the time to look for the sources, but i know they exist and I'll post back as soon as I find them. Chico 05:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the race numbers are biased. Two issues arise: 1. Race doesn't exist scientifically, so it is culturally based anyway 2. Brazilians have one of the most interesting and complicated racial systems. It is somewht based on skin color, but also based on class and other things. So any attempt to place people in categories will be flawed. That being said, the IBGE numbers state that many more people are white than would be considered white in a country like the United States, which still mostly adheres to the one drop rule in my opinion. This means that anyone that is somewhat dark is excluded from being white (i.e. Obama is black). In Brazil from my experience anyone that is not completely black is mulatto, and anyone that is at least 1/4 European is white. But like any racial categories it is highly subjective. I think finding some other numbers would yield a more complete picture of Brazil's racial composition. OneWorld22 22:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ethnicity and race section is poor. If you people really knew anyone from Brasile you would know that they consider themselves Brasilian or Portuguese. Don't try to make a great country into the USA with its racist views. How can you place people who are mixed with Porturguese, African, and South American Native Indians into individual groups of race??? They are all mixed!! I don't like how the word ethnic group is used. Portuguese, African, etc, are now ethnic group? By all means, if one belongs to a group for 1000 years or more, it means for not. All is outranked by a foolish color, race is now a color. How western, how modern, and so common.--Margrave1206 21:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I actually do know people from Brazil, and none consider themselves Portuguese. They consider themselves white, moreno, mulaton preto, etc.  I agree that the whole conception of race is flawed, especially placing people in boxes when it is a spectrum.  However this is not an article on race as a concept, it is an article on Brazil.  Race matters in Brazil, so there should be a section on it.  It is not someone trying to make "Brazil into the US with its racist views."  (By the way, Native Indians means a person from India living in India, native Brazilians is a better term).  OneWorld22 01:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I should remember you, people, that last IBGE's pools had two different spaces to fill in the race answers, one with the person's answer, and another one where the questioner answered. Diana Prallon

Aviation Crisis
Is there an article about the aviation crisis in Brazil? Thanks
 * You should look in WikiNEWS since I doubt this is a encyclopedia subject. Alvaroludolf 19:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow
More catholics than Italy. Fucking way to go Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User: (talk • contribs)

Please rephrase your complaint so that we can understand it.

By a conservative estimate, there are 120 million Catholics in Brazil. The total population of Italy is less tha half of that. Did you flunk basic arithmetic, or what? Macgreco 01:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I sugest we ignore this coment, sounds like trolling Chico 04:05, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The original post was rude and unclear, but the replies didn't help a thing. It makes no sense to try to compare Brazil and Italy in absolute terms, beause one is much bigger, so the logic of the argument is flawed (I'm assuming you chose Italy as the seat of Catholicism, or the most Catholic country in the world, presumably). Its like arguing you can take more juice out of a late melon than a small orange; of course you can, it's that much bigger, but the orange is that much juicier. I think some one needs to re-sit some basic arithmatic exams! Cheers.Loge 02:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd also point that while Italy's catholics do go to church and practice catholicism, most Brazillian's don't. User:Diana Prallon

International Rankings
I don't think the international ranking table added before is relevant. The only ranking really relavent to the article was the HDI ranking and it was already present, if there were a consensus that this information was relavent, I think it would have been added to the country infobox by now, the way to try to add would be in the infobox, not on the article, in my opinion. Please lets discuss this instead of just reverting the edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chicocvenancio (talk • contribs) 01:05, 17 January 2007 Chico 17:17, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I am indifferent with it. But articles like USA, Germany, India, China does not have International Rank, so you are probably true. Carlosguitar 10:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * But the Chile and Argentina entries do have a similar table...

Bolsa Família
Bolsa Família is a part of the Fome Zero program, we should not cite them close to each other without citing the relationship between them. Chico 17:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

World Bank Group external links
These links:
 * Doing Business in Brazil &mdash; The World Bank Group's guide to doing business in Brazil
 * Starting a Business in Brazil
 * Enterprise Surveys: Brazil
 * Privatization Database: Brazil
 * Infrastructure Projects: Brazil

Were added by accounts whose only edits appear to have been to promote World Bank websites. One of the accounts is an IP address registered to the World Bank Group. (Note: doingbusiness.org is a World Bank project). In keeping with our conflict of interest and external links guidelines I've moved them here for consideration by regular editors of this article who are unaffiliated with the organization. Personally I think all five links is an over representation in the article.

Note this was also added by one of the same accounts and should be considered by regular editors too. -- Siobhan Hansa 21:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Possible unsupported commentary
The negative twist at the end of the following sentence does not appear to be supported by the referenced article.

"The government of Brazil is attempting a switch to free software and operating systems in place of proprietary software with little success so far."

Is there information available on adoption rates / real or percieved barriers / etc that can be referenced to support this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.16.48.104 (talk) 17:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

Religion
I fixed the Religion subject with the official data (reference provided in portuguese from official bureau) and put some order and standardization on it. Alvaroludolf 19:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Spiritism
The IBGE has no data as on what kind of "spiritism" is practised, the census merely takes note of the denomination the "recensee" gives out, and in those numbers are certainly included other traditions other than the Kardequian.

As Wikipedia points out in spiritism:

The term was coined by Kardec as the specific name of the doctrine but -- given the fact that the word was created from roots taken from the common language -- it was soon incorporated into normal use and used for other doctrines as well, though the original Spiritists protest this usage.

Thus, it is inappropriate to point out in [Brazil#Religion] that 1.3% are followers of Spiritism, based on the Allan Kardec's doctrine (about 2.2 million). since there are an unknown number of other religious practices bundled within 'spiritism', about which IBGE's census has no data.

Someone fix that please.--200.163.203.53 17:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * We must rely on verifiable sources for wikipedia and, while I agree that there are other forms and doctrines of Spiritism, there are no good source about it that I am aware of, if you have any, please point out. Also we must remember that the Brazilian Census is based on the declared position of someone and it avoid practices like people that follow two or more religions, a common practice in Brazil. So the data on Spiritism should remain as stated until we have another source of information with a different approach to the question. Alvaroludolf 12:50, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I mean, it is merely speculation, that a majority (an unknown proportion) of spiritist would practice the Kardequian doctrine. Seccondly, this information is attributed to the census, which is notoriously erroneous. The statement should be corrected to 1.3% are followers of Spiritism (about 2.2 million) lest the article should be in the fault of inserting notoriously erroneous information to the census data.--200.193.155.177 04:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

This information is not attributed to the census, it IS the information from the census, i put a link to it. I did not speculated anything because here we do not speculate, we transcribe, compile and organize data and knowledge and so i did from a reliable source of information. So you find a reliable source of information saying that the census is erroneous and that the correct data is something else and we change it, better than speculating on this subject. If not we should stick to the official data. PS: we should not use "official" data provided by the religious institutions because i am pretty sure that it will make the Brazilian population double in size. Alvaroludolf 11:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh damn, my mistake... i just saw your point, sorry. I used the old text and only included the data from census to it, but the data should remain the same. Alvaroludolf 11:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Latter-day Saints in Brazil
The official website of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormon Church) states that over 930,000 members of that religion reside in Brazil. Within the next couple of years, that number is expected to rise to over 1 million members. This article states that only 200,000 Mormons live in Brazil. This is an inaccuracy and should be changed. I'm making the change for the second time.
 * The church itself is anything but a reliable source, and 199,645 is the official IBGE data. I have changed the numbers back. I will consider any further reverts as vandalism and report it accordingly. Macgreco 04:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Working for years as a service volunteer in Brazil, I had the opportunity to assist those of many religions, including many from the Mormon church. The idea that there are anything less than half a million members of that church in Brazil is laughable. There are well over 200,000 members in Sao Paulo state alone. The IBGE statistics are grossly inaccurate, and though I blame no one for basing encyclopedic figures from a government source, such blatant inaccuracies continue to undermine the validity of Wikipedia.
 * Reliable sources Macgreco 19:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I live in Brazil for much more years than you lived here (I was born here and never left) and I was amazed to know that there are almost 200,000 mormons (I am not sure that it is corect to call them this way but since you used this term I will assume that it is ok). Personally I doubt that there were more than a few thousands. See, I never met a single mormon in my entire life. I asked on my colegues here and neither of them have ever met a mormo too. My wife never met a mormon, nobody that I know, know of someone that have ever met a mormon. On the other hand I have at least 3 friends that are Jews, and they are less than 100,000 in Brazil. I could put on the article that i think that there are about 5,000 mormons in Brazil, but I can't because we are not expressing our view here. We must rely on verifiable and reliable sources only and there are no more reliable source than an official census. You might think otherwise, I might think otherwise and it is ok if you want to discuss it here, but the article will not be published under personal points of view.

Beside that i am pretty sure that if we use the information from each church "official" data the brazilian population will pass the half billion people mark. Alvaroludolf 12:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

@Alvoroludolf: I served as a missionary in Brazil. I would bet that you have met at least one member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I know that in the city (and stake of the church by the same name) of São Carlos, SP there are about 5,000 members of the church. As to the statement on church membership and national population, a person can belong to more than one church. For instance, one may have been baptized as a Catholic shortly after being born, and then later join another church or several churches. Thus one person could be included as Catholic, Latter-day Saint, and Methodist, if he was ever considered a member of those churches without requesting his name be removed from their records. Scc4fun 18:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

And once again someone changed the data on LDS giving as the source... the church itself. That is a reliable source, right? I mean, if the catholic church claimed 6 billion people as its followers, we would believe it, wouldn't we? Macgreco 04:13, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
Ok, can we lock this topic again? We had more than 5 acts of vandalism just today. I don't think it is safe to say that the vandalism is gone. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alvaroludolf (talk • contribs) 19:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

It is really soon here in Brazil and I log in too see that we already have about 5 acts of vandalism here. Those acts of vandalism is not going anywhere aparently. Is there any reason for not locking this article for a long time. Alvaroludolf 13:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Science and technology
Someone will adds reference about Xylella fastidiosa Genome Project and —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ricardo Carneiro Pires (talk • contribs) 21:05, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

Social issues: Human Traffic and Political Sources of Information
The information about Brazil should come from neutral sources. The US Department of State is a political entity and it brings tendentious information about Latin American countries and should not be considered as a source of information for Brazil's article. The written report that talks about human traffic has political purposes, and it used an isolated case to justify sanctions against the steel industry of Brazil (a threat for the American Industry), contested by the Brazilian Foreign Relations Ministry. Moreover, each nation should be the responsible for its own description.

With all due respect for brazilians, I ask to unprotect that article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.7.46.243 (talk • contribs)

Social Issues
Can we stop this edit war? People wouldn't like to see Human trafic on the article for some reason? So lets see some aguments why it is better with or without it. Lets see some arguments or this will never end. Alvaroludolf 14:12, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally, I have not participated in the "war"; but I too don't think it should be in the article. Many countries are listed in the US report and most(I have not found another one so far) dont have a similar section, it is not a topic that should be here because it is not notable enough to be in an article about Brazil. Furthermore, if we decide to keep it; we need a new source, a US government document is not good enough.Chico 16:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

If no one answers this topic I will remove the comments... especially after I noticed that Brazil is not cited in the Trafficking in human beings article, and Russia(who is cited) does not cite it in the article(a Good Article by the way)Chico 01:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC) I have removed the section, lets please reach a consensus before changing itChico 17:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Just a quick note on the edition here. New topics go to the bottom, and try to avoid editing other people contribution in a talk page, it makes things hard to track and could change the idea of his subject. NEVER edit other people contribution to make then sound like saying something else.
 * About this Human traffic question, the subject is controversial and while we have a source that might state it in Brazil, there are others (some as biased as the first) that states otherwise. Since Wikipedia is not a debate site we should be SURE about what we are adding here. Beside that i agree that the subject lack on encyclopedic interest just as the United States article have no entry about the illegal situation of POW in US Guantanamo Base. Alvaroludolf 14:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thats just what I am trying to say, in an article about human rights in Brazil or something like that.... it would be fine... but aside from not having good sources it also lacks the notability to be in the article about BrazilChico 15:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, really I don't think a "Social Issues" section should even be in the article unless we make a social issues section for every country in the world. Every country has social issues, right?  Why a Social Issues section for Brazil and no other country?  ekedolphin 11:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Melting Pot
The second paragraph would be more accurate with the expressions Melting Pot or Cultural and Racial Pluralism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.70.171 (talk • contribs) 03:57, 3 March 2007

The capital of Brazil is not Sao Paulo, as the   article states. It is Brasililia.


 * I think Brasililia would not quite be the name we are looking for, I think you meant Brasília. Cheiro de lysoform 10:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Racism?
"According to the Brazilian constitution of 1988, racism is an unbailable crime and must be met with imprisonment."

This should be expanded upon if it bears any relation to the truth. The term "racism", as I understand it, refers to beliefs rather than actions, and you cannot criminalise beliefs unless you have the technology to read people's minds.

Let's suppose that I believe white people are inferior to black (or vice versa), therefore I am a racist. At what point do I commit an imprisonable crime? Is it at the moment I start thinking about it (obviously impossible)? Is it at the moment I start telling people about it, or writing books about it? Or is it at the moment that I start acting on those beliefs and begin physically attacking people of a different race? 217.155.20.163 00:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The crime of racism assumes many forms. It can be the publishing of racist books, barring entrance in any place because of someone's color, offending someone because of their race. If somebody does anything that would make common sense identify that person as a racist, they could probably be persecuted.


 * The Constitution of Federative Republic of Brasil states that the practice (and practice only) of racism is umbailable and imprescriptible, this is regulated in the Penal Code and later a ordinary law ([Law 7716 of 5 of January of 1989]).
 * A crime is defined as an action or neglection. Thoughts are not subject of the criminal law so you are free to be racist if you want to.
 * Racism is a sequence of acts that violate constitutional rights against specific groups (not only race of skin color) and give sentences varying from one year to five years.
 * Racial prejudice (practice or inciting against a race, not individuals of an specific race) is a crime with a sentence of 1 to 3 years of jail regulated by the same law (Art. 20), later included in the law.
 * If you physically attack someone, for whatever reason you have (except for lawful defense), then you will be charged for aggression, not racism, with a sentence of 3 months to one year reaching up to 8 years of reclusion if aggravated and 12 years if the victim dies.
 * If you offend someone based on his race if a crime against the honor only (injuria qualificada) with smaller sentences, capable of apology and void if the offender was provoked.
 * Writing a book defending racism or any form of prejudice or defending a ethnic group against others could be defined as racial prejudice but is also defended as a constitutional right, that way this is subject to discussion (probably within the Brazilian Supreme Court).
 * Such elucidation however goes beyond the limits of this article and should be avoided but we could include the "practice of racism" instead of racism as a crime. Alvaroludolf 14:46, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Please, where is the real Brazil in this article???

 * My friends, there are several mistakes in the article Brazil. Our slow growth is NEVER mentioned in the Economy section. We are a poor country, not the super-power shown in this article. Remember that after the Collor government, most of our native electronic industries have closed their doors. HENCE, WE ARE NOT A MAJOR EXPORTER of electrical products. Remember that the CIA report states that we are highly indebted country. Where is that mentioned in the Economy Section?
 * We have a big potential to become a player in information technology, but we are not a MAJOR player now. Please remove the part in the section Science and Technology that tells that we are a major player in information technology. That ia a lie! Come on, SHOW THE REAL BRAZIL and not a dream land.

Robertomalancini 05:00, 28 March 2007 (UTC)Roberto

I feel very sorry if you know so little of the technological production on Brazil. Look for the advancement in ethanol, oceanic oil extraction, agro technology, small airplanes production, uranium refinement, biotechnology, AI research, space program, etc. If you want to look only to the bad side of Brazil, look for poverty, lack of public health and education and specially government corruption but saying that we are not an advanced country is a lack of view. Sure we can't be compared with Japan or US but even against those countries we have an advanced in certain fields of expertise (specially on fuel technology and agro technology). You also seems to know very little about software industry. Brazil have a software industry compared to India and China but with one exception, we consume much of the software that we produce. One other small difference, while India focus in low tech software, Brazil have a software research in the fields of AI and Biotechnology. Alvaroludolf 15:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * DearMr Ludolf:


 * First, you need to improve the usage of English language. I agree with Mr. Malancini and I think that you are overestimating the Brazilian role in the world. I have a MSc and DSc degrees by Brazilian universities and I know what is going on in Brazil. We are strong in Mathematics, mining, production of small airplanes and agriculture. However, our publication record is small if compared with Japan and the US. Do not claim that our software industry is much better than the Indian and Chinese ones. Where is the proof?  Roberto ludendorff Roberto Ludendorff, PhD

Dear Dr. Ludendorff, I didn’t saw your friend providing any proof either but ok, lets see if i can help you on this. First you need to improve the usage of your general reading. "Brazil have a software industry compared to India and China" doesn’t mean "much better", means similar. Now... to your proof. I will assume that your Portuguese is better than my English.

http://www.bndes.gov.br/conhecimento/seminario/EugenioStaub.pdf - Look for a subject called "A Indústria de Software no Brasil, China e Índia (2001)", they have some nice chart with numbers that I assume you will be able to understand.

I would love to search for other sources but this one will give you the data that you... require, feel free to browse for more on internet, I am pretty sure that you will improve the view you have from Brazil.

I also think that it is unfair to compare Brazilian publications with Japan or US, since they are completely different countries (read “developed countries”) but is this really so bad?

http://www.iea.usp.br/iea/observatorios/educacao/superior/pesquisaposgraduacao/sabarretofutorodapos.pdf - Look for "Produtividade e Comparação com Outros Países". One more time, charts. Not that hard to read.

Ok, we have much bigger population but remember that i said that education in Brazil was a problem? And still we have a good intellectual publications compared with India and China if you take the size population in account.

See, the picture is not that dark on those fields for Brazil. I hope to bring some light to your MSc and DSc of yours. I also think that you should avoid trying to disqualify someone opinion with his proficiency on English language or because you have a bigger resume than him (and by the way, you don’t have, but i am not looking for a job here so who cares about my education level here?). This is specially unpleasant coming from someone with so many degrees.

Alvaroludolf 13:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not know who is Roberto Ludendorff. But his number of publications criterium is a good indicator in science, as is the number of citations. In any case, we do not have native electronic industry and we do not make electronic chips. Most of our thesis are in the library and not in industrial labs. There is some initiative by FAPESP to change this picture, but there is still much work to be done. Thanks to Collor and FHC and wrong policies such as "Reserva de informatica", our native electronic industry is gone ("perdemos o bonde da historia"). With respect to your report, it clearly shows a dependence on international technology in electronics and, to be honest with you, we have progress in software but we are not a major exporter of software (where competition is fierce). I can claim that I have a time machine at home but it is for private use. Moreover, remember that I have never said that we do not make anything in terms of software, I have only stated that we are not a major player yet, ALTHOUGH we have an enormous POTENTIAL. RobertomalanciniRobertoMalancini

It is not because we have the same name that we should be friends. In the article, it is written that "Brazilian information technology is considered one of the most advanced in the world". So why don't we compete internationally? That is my only point. Many other countries have internet banking system, access to government facilities by internet, etc. And so what? I am not saying that we do not make software, I am only saying that besides our big potential in software technology, it is ARGUABLE to claim that we have one of the most advanced information technology in the world. Besides that, anyone who has studied information technology, knows that this term is not applied only to software development.Roberto ludendorffLudendorff

I never deffended that our software industry was among the most advanced, just that we have numbers comparable to China and India, that aren't the most advanced countries either, but are concidered "major players" in the global software market. I never said that we are comparable to US or Japan, did I? The only reason why we don't have export numbers like India is because we actually have an internal market to consume the software produced here. Anyway, you are a registered user, feel free to go there and change whatever you want since you are an specialist in Software Industry. Alvaroludolf 12:10, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

==== No further comments, only an additional phrase The text looks much better now. No further comments. With respect to the Space Agency, the phrase is lost in the text. I suggest the following replacement:

After a succesful enterpreneurship in the manufacturing of small and medium airplanes, Brazil is looking for developing space technology. This effort is coordinated by the Brazilian Space Agency. We have already fabricated satellites and sent an astronaut to visit the international space station with a Russian spacecraft. However, we still need to make a working space launcher, our initial launchs were unsuccesful (due to lack of funds and a certain embargo of parts from developed countries who consider this technology sensitive). Our satellites are helping the country to monitor the Amazon region, for example. Ludendorff

==== Ludendorff and Ludolf

I will change a little bit your suggested addition:

After a succesful enterpreneurship in the manufacturing of small and medium airplanes, Brazil is looking for developing space technology. This effort is being coordinated by the Brazilian Space Agency (Agencia Espacial Brasileira). We have already fabricated satellites and an astronaut has recently visited the international space station (traveling in a Russian spacecraft). However, we still need to make a working space launcher, our initial tests were unsuccesful (due to lack of funds and a certain embargo of parts from developed countries who consider this technology sensitive). Our satellites are helping, for example, to monitor the Amazon region.

Our agricultural throughput is being improved by the application of bio-technology. Recently, a project called Xylella fastidiosa Genome Project has decoded the genetic code of a plague that affects orange trees. We have also developed a medicine to control hypertension based upon rattlesnake's poison. Our flora and fauna provides a unique environment to discover new medicines.

Robertomalancini Roberto Malancini

No problem on this, just remeber to use a neutral voice when writing in articles, so instead of writing "Our agricultural..." rephrase as "Brazilian's agricultural...", and things like this. Alvaroludolf 12:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Good things in Brazil
We do not make computers! US and Japan do make CPUS, electronic chips, etc. We do not, although a few small companies assemble computers. In science and technology, we are strong in agriculture and biology (Thanks to Embrapa, Butantan Institute, etc), manufacturing of small/medium airplanes (Embraer), Mathematics (IMPA). All the rest can be described as pure ufanism and wish to be thoughts. RobertomalanciniRoberto
 * You can edit the article to make it more accurate if you would like. Make sure to source your assertions.-- Kungfu Adam ( talk ) 13:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

201.82.45.151 02:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)Correction suggestion: In the following phrase: "In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, Brazil attracted over 5 million European, Arab and Japanese immigrants. During this time Brazil became industrialized, further colonized, and its interior further explored and developed." - instead of saying that Brazil was "further colonized", I believe it'd be better if it could be changed to something like "occupied". "Colonized" is more related with political appropriation..

Summary of proposed changes
Economy section:

1.Include the fact that the CIA World facts and the UN states that Brazil is highly indebted. This will show a more true picture of the country

2. It can be added that our reserves have reached 100 billion dollars

3. Remove the phrase that we are major producers of electrical products.

Science and Technology.

1. Add that the Brazilian software is mostly used for internal usage. Instead of claiming that we possess one of the most advanced information technology in the world (VERY ARROGANT), say that we have an advanced software technology with great potential to be a major player in this area in the future.

2. Cite IMPA, Embrapa, Butantan centre, etc. as centres of excellence in research.

3. Brazilian academic science and technology has not yet been fully applied to industry, a problem that the country needs to overcome in the future. We are a mid-income country in search of development.

4. You may argue that we have an advanced software technology, we are major players in agriculture and mining and we manufacture small/medium airplanes.

Is it so annoying to tell the truth? Is this an article for touristic purposes? RobertomalanciniRoberto

Will you include the american debt too? *sigh* But yeah... go ahead and change, I see an improvement here. Alvaroludolf 12:10, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

5. Eliminate multiple cross-references. It seems the cities and other entries are referred to more than once, all over the article, with the double brackets. References should be made only on the first time a word appears on the text, and not every single time it does. Moreover, I believe we should mention Easter as a national holiday, along with the Good Friday - although it is always on a Sunday, it may not be so obvious for people looking for reliable information on the country.

Politics
I believe we should mention the many scandals that plague the Brazilian Congress in the politics section. In Brazil, they are so frequent they are almost folkloric. Of course there’s no need to go into much detail in this general article, but maybe a short paragraph mentioning some of the main incidents (impeachment, “dwarves”, Mensalão, etc) with links to more specific articles? I believe that would give readers a better idea of the Brazilian reality. Currently the politics section is too limited. It only presents formal rules from the Brazilian Constitution.

Sparks1979 15:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I disagree. The US section on government does not refer to William J. Jefferson, Bob Ney, Duke Cunningham, etc...  It merely discusses the political system and foreign relations of the US.  Are there other options to explore? Yes.  Is there room for expansion? Certainly.  But political scandals should be left to Politics of Brazil and its companion pages. --(Ptah, the El Daoud 20:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC))

New sections
I was wondering what other users think about the creation and inclusion of sections on “Health”, “Education” and the “Military”? Seems like pretty basic stuff to me, therefore I favor its insertion in the article. Also, in case we decide to include these topics, how should the sections be organized?

Sparks1979 15:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I would second the addition of those sections as they are an important part of any culture. Scc4fun 18:14, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Health and Education would fit comfortably in the Demography section. And I would have no qualms with a stand alone Military section.  --(Ptah, the El Daoud 20:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC))

João Felipe C.S changes
There's a teenager user, nicked João Felipe C.S, who has been changing the pictures of all Brazil's articles, in all languages, in Wikipedia's project. The fact is that this user is racist and is always trying to sell the idea of a fake European Brazil.

One exemple: he posted a picture of an unknown woman of Germanic name in the Brazil's article (Ellen Gracie Northfleet, who is this woman?). The thing is that I am Brazilian and I have never seen anything about that woman in my life. And I know most Brazilians do not know who she is. So, why did João Felipe C.S post a picture of her in Brazil's article? Because she is White and blond.

Why did he erase the picture of the Brazilian Indians and posted pictures of Southern Brazilians cities settled by Germans? Because he is racist. He has been doing this White-wash in Brazilian articles of many languages. He has no permition for doing that! Somebody should stop him! Brazil is Multiracial country, not a fake European copy. Everybody knows that. By the way, somebody should teach João Felipe C.S that, in Brazil, racism is a crime, and he can be on prision soon. Thank you all, and let's not let him sell his racist ideas. Opinoso 00:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * "He posted a picture of an unknown woman of Germanic name in the Brazil's article (Ellen Gracie Northfleet, who is this woman?." Supreme Court judge, so hardly "unknown". If you have never heard of her, that speaks more about you than about Gracie. Macgreco 17:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The only racists remarks seem to be yours, Opinoso!! A good part of the population is white, the majority descendents of German, Italian, and Portuguese immigrants. There are 21 million italian descendents alone! (as stated in the website of the Italian Consulate-General in São Paulo ). Therefore, they are NOT a minority... and most importantly, they are also brazilians! So why should we hide that from the article? Specially, when southern Brazil (states of RJ, SP, PR, SC, RS) correspond to nearly 70% of the GDP, and 75% of the total population!!!


 * Yes, southern Brazil does account for that... if you include a little known place called Minas Gerais, much larger and richer than Santa Catarina or Paraná and with the third largest Italian-descended population. Macgreco 04:35, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * As for Ellen Gracie Northfleet, she is VERY well known in Brazil... at least to anyone with a TV set in their home. She is a Justice of the Supreme Federal Tribunal, and the first woman to preside it. As President of our supreme court, she is considered the 3rd most powerfull person in the government.


 * I trully hope this ends this nonsense over racism, bla-bla-bla! Lets work TOGETHER on the article and try to improve it. Thanks.Limongi 13:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The first changes he made (a few days ago) seemed a bit unilateral, but his latest contributions seem pretty good.
 * 200.144.145.60 10:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

If the user is a teenager or not, that doesn't matter in first place, and it looks like you are being the only racist, judging by your phrase "Why (...) he posted pictures of southern brazilians cities(...)? Because he is a racist" does not make any sense at all. Wikipedia is not a place to carry personal attacks. If you have a problem with the user, please go fight with him out of here. --Alberto msr 00:37, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if he is a real racist or not but I believe the article doesn't have to present only one side view on the issue. Indians and mulatos are also part of Brazil and they must have a place in this article. BrazucaSP 14:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Page protected?
For some reason, I am unable to edit this page. From the discussions of vandalism and the fact that I am a newly registered user, I can imagine that this page might be protected to prevent me from editing it, but if so, shouldn't there be some sort of notice at the top of the page?

Something needs to be done about the huge amounts of white space in the article (at least when viewed with IE), it just looks horrible right now...

-CMoosey

No violence?
Searching for the word 'violence' on the article, there are no ocurrences of it. On the tiny section about social problems, violence is also not cited. Why there is nothing about violence on the article of the 3rd most violent country in the world? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.72.61.133 (talk) 00:25, 28 April 2007 (UTC).


 * There is one sentence in the "Social issues" section, "Violence is also a part of life in Brazil. Muggings, robberies and kidnaps are quite common, being considered even as normal by many Brazilians." This sentence could easily be expanded and even shaped into a "Social issues" sub-section. --(Ptah, the El Daoud 20:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC))

What products
What products does it produce? im making a report? The evil O,malley 19:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Never, ever, ever use wiki as a primary or secondary source in a report. At its best, Wiki can serve as a decent introduction to subject (that is, you can determine whether you really want to investigate a certain topic further), but everything you read on wiki should be taken with a grain of salt.      Check out the books in your school or local public library.  They will give you the information you want, and the legitimate references you need. --(Ptah, the El Daoud 20:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC))


 * Brazilian major exports are commodities such as agricultural and mineral products. We also export small and medium airplanes (that are manufactured in Brazil, but with most of its electronic and avionic parts being purchased elsewhere). We also export shoes and furniture. Most of our electronic goods are either fabricated by foreign multinationals in Brazil or brought from foreign countries. We develop software, but it is mostly used internally. Construction is a major industry in Brazil, with a few construction companies operating overseas.

RobertomalanciniRoberto

I tried checking out books, trust me no product talk. PS Does this country sell anything special?? The evil O,malley

Passed GA
A good article, cited, good prose and satisfies all WP:WIAGA. Congratulations. However, there are several suggestions on how to improve this article:


 * 1) Expand more to get a comprehensive article.
 * 2) Standardize citations. Take a look at WP:CITET for some examples if you use footnotes.
 * 3) Please be selective on external links to avoid spam external links. It also applies for referencing to commercial sites and non-academic resources. Please also read WP:RS.

Good work and congratulaions to all who contributed.Limongi 14:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Good Article Review
This item has been listed for review. Feel free to comment. - 凶 14:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Too many images
This article has way too many images.--Ezadarque 11:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Not a good article, only a touristic description of Brazil
Thanks for removing my "expansion" of the Science and Technology section. I will repeat again that Brazil is not a major producer of electrical equipment. Our main exports are commodities! Go overseas and try to find Brazilian IPODs and computers. I give up, anyway, and DO NOT CONSIDER THIS ARTICLE TO BE GOOD! Another reality hidden in this article: the majority of the population in Brazil consists of blacks and mullatos. [Roberto]


 * Roberto, Brazil is a major producer of manufactured goods. May I remind you that we have the biggest automobile industry in Latin America, the 4th largest airplane industry in the world (Embraer), and a large software industry as well. What we are not, is a major exporter of manufactured goods... which doesn't mean we aren't a major producer. As for the majority of the population being black or mulato that isn't true either, just look at the latest IBGE census . 53,7% of the population is white, 38,5% mixed or mulato, and 6,2% black. I hope that clarified a few things for you.... as everyone else seems to know this already.Limongi 13:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The article is correct. Brazil does have computer industries, aircraft manufacturers, etc. Regarding the computer industries, it should be noted that it is for mostly the internal market and not exportation (that's why you won't find Brazilian iPods abroad, but you can find in Brazil, most of them manufactured in Manaus). --201.82.38.21 13:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Let us come back to definitions. In Brazil, many people of mixed race define themselves as white. Hence, if you consider an American criterium to define race, the majority of the Brazilian population would be black and mixed race. This is a secondary issue, as we should not distinct people by the colour of their skin.

The question that I raise is about the definition of manufactured product. If you assemble something in a country with sombeody else's technology is a definition of manufacturing, then I completely agree with you. Most of Brazilian automobiles are fabricated by international companies (Volkswagen, Volvo, Mercedes, Ford, GM, etc.) in Brazil. The same applies to many other products. Now, coming back to electronics: do we make CPUs, memories, etc. in Brazil or do we just assemble the parts? What about our mobile phones, isn't it the same? Embraer really does a nice job, although it imports all avionics and engines (but the structure of the airplane is quite complicated as well and Embraer deserves the merit of doing it). Please be careful with the terms and add some clarification, otherwise people will reckon that Nokia is a Brazilian company. I should remember that information technology can be described as: 1. Computer hardware 2. Computer software 3. Computer networks and management 4. Coding and transmission of information. If you only make software, it is misleading to claim that you make computers. My point is, clarify your definition of manufacturing and clarify your definition of information technology and computers. Please read the special report about Brazil at the Economist! This can considerably improve the text herein. Roberto

Where to find the true Brazil besides going there
If you would like to find a truly description of Brazil, please read the "special report on Brazil" in the Economist. I congratulate this magazine for this special report, it has accurately depicted the country. The economic section in this report is 100 times better than the one that you will find here! You will find the true Brazil there, not a touristic description like this one. [Roberto]

Article removed from Good Article List
The article Brazil was removed from the Good Article List due to a major problem of Conflict of Interests, because the user who reviewed the article, Limongi, is a member of the Wikiproject Brazil. Also, the article doesn't meet the needed requirements to qualify as a good article. Please visit the following link to see the comments and suggestions left by other editors to improve this article: Good_article_review. Alex  Covarrubias  ( Talk? ) 03:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)


 * First of all, I don't see it listed anywhere in the WP:COI that a native of a country may not review an article of his/her country. Otherwise americans would'nt be able to review their articles. Second of all, I trully believe that this article meets ALL the criteria for good article statua, as listed by Wikipedia. Therefore, I'm re-submitting the article as a good article candidate!. Thanks. Limongi 20:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Listen, I was the one that nominated it for review. The issues with the article fall far beyond WP:COI, the page is huge and it only has 14 references, I believe that is the definition of undereferenced; another issue is the over use of images, we all know that South America including Brazil is full of natural and cultural wonders but at least half of them have to go. - 凶 01:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree with you. He's ignoring all the problems we suggest to be solved. Instead of solving them, he just chose to renominate the article. It has few chanced to pass if the problems are not fixed. Alex  Covarrubias  Flag of Mexico.svg ( Talk? ) 01:11, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Fine, re-submit the article, it is your right to do it. However, what you think is not important here. Several other users have pointed out the problems with the article, and I was not aware that it was previoulsy part of the Good Article in 2006, and oh my God, it was delisted as it was delisted this time. I think you should read the requirements of a Good Article. The most important of all: sources. Alex  Covarrubias  Flag of Mexico.svg ( Talk? ) 00:19, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

GA Failed: Notes for fixes
By all rights, I should just quickfail the article per WP:POINT: The article was renominated at WP:GAC within hours after the delisting occured. The delisting was done by consensus decision, the results of which can be found at this archived discussion. However, since you wanted a second opinion, here it is. These are the reasons that it does NOT meet the good article requirements found at WP:WIAGA:
 * Lead Section
 * Copyediting problems: The very first sentance is missing a close-parenthesis.
 * The lead makes claims which are not repeated in the body of the article
 * The land area figure is patently rediculous. Listing the land area to the .001 km2 stretches the bounds of credibility.  High tide probably removes more land area than this.  See significant figures for more information, especially the section on "spurious accuracy".


 * The land area figure has been presented according to official data from IBGE, so it should not be changed. 200.144.145.60 14:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

That's it. If you seriously want this article to be a GA or Featured Status, you should consider spending your energy on making these fixes, and stop trying to make a point by continuously renominating it as-is. Good day and happy editing. --Jayron32| talk | contribs 02:35, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * History
 * "The territory of Brazil has been inhabited for at least 8,000 years." According to whom? Reference needed.
 * "The origins of the first Brazilians, who were called "Indians" (índios) by the Portuguese, are still a matter of dispute among archaeologists. " What is the nature of the dispute? What reference is there to verify this dispute?
 * "The traditional view is that they were part of the first wave of migrant hunters who came into the Americas from Siberia, across the Bering Strait." What is the source of this information?
 * "However some archaeologists see signs of a much older human population, morphologically distinct from the Asian hunters and more similar to African and Australian natives, who were displaced or absorbed by the Siberian hunters." Which archeologists? Reference please.
 * "It is generally accepted that Brazil was first discovered by Europeans on April 22, 1500, by Pedro Álvares Cabral, though this is contested by some." Who contests this? Reference please.
 * "Until 1530 Portugal had little interest in Brazil, mainly due to the high profits gained through commerce with Indochina. This lack of interest led to several "invasions" by different countries, and the Portuguese Crown devised a system to effectively occupy Brazil, without paying the costs. Through the Hereditary Captaincies system, Brazil was divided into strips of land that were donated to Portuguese noblemen, who were in turn responsible for the occupation of the land and answered to the king. Later, the Portuguese realized the system was a failure (only two lots were successfully occupied) and took control of the failed lots." Again, according to whom? We need a reference that these supposed "facts" come from.
 * "The most interesting feature in the history of Brazil is the fact that it was one of only two countries among the ‘new worlds’ that housed an effective legal monarchical state" Interesting is POV term and unencyclopedic. Also, this superlative claim is unreferenced.
 * "and for a period of 13 years was the metropolis of a European state. This was the case that Brazil’s capital city — Rio de Janeiro — was from 1808 to 1821 the head of the Portuguese empire, which spread from Europe to Asia and Africa." Reads like a bad translation from another language. Metropolis?  Do you mean capital?  Also, this fact belongs under the colonial brazil sub-section.  Additionally, it is unreferenced.
 * "In 1808, the Portuguese court, fleeing from Napoleon’s troops which had invaded the territory of Portugal, moved aboard a large fleet, escorted by British men-of-war, with all the government apparatus to its then-colony, Brazil, establishing themselves in the city of Rio de Janeiro. From there the Portuguese king ruled his huge empire for 13 years, and there he would have remained for the rest of his life if it were not for the turmoil aroused in Portugal due, among other reasons, to his long stay in Brazil after the end of Napoleon's reign." Awkward language. Again, misplaced, since this isn't about the independant Brazilian empire, rather its about the Brazilian colony, which served to house the Portuguese gov't in exile during the Napoleaonic Years.  Also, it needs a citation to a reference where this info came from.
 * "Pedro II was deposed on November 15, 1889..." Um, we jump from 1808 to 1889? No information about the Empire period at ALL?  The rest of this section is also entirely unreferenced.
 * "A military junta took control in 1930. Getúlio Vargas took power soon after that, and would remain as dictatorial ruler (with a brief democratic period), until his suicide in 1954. After 1930, the successive governments continued industrial and agriculture growth and development of the vast interior of Brazil. Provisional President Getúlio Dorneles Vargas ruled as dictator (1930–1934), congressionally elected president (1934–1937), and again dictator (1937–1945), with the backing of his revolutionary coalition. He also served as a senator (1946–1951) and the popularly elected president (1951–1954)." Deja vue anyone?  Yes, I did read the same information twice.  Additionally, Vargas should be wikilinked.  Also, surprise, we have NO idea where this information comes from.
 * "He understood that with the breakdown of direct relations between workers and owners in the expanding factories of Brazil, workers could become the basis for a new form of political power—populism. Using such insights, he would gradually establish such mastery over the Brazilian political world that he would stay in power for fifteen years." He understood? We are mindreaders now?  Insights?  POV language needs neutralization.  Also, yet again, we have no source for these facts.
 * "The military maintained power in Brazil from 1964 until March 1985 because of political struggles within the regime and Brazilian elite." Political struggles? According to whom?  Reference please.
 * "Although most historians state that the coup was merely a consequence of the regime's behavior in the final years, others argue that the coup had been planned since 1954." Which historians hold which viewpoints? References please...
 * "Tancredo Neves was elected president in an indirect election in 1985 as the nation returned to civilian rule." Again, twenty years of history just disapeared. We end the prior section in 1965...
 * "Brazil’s most severe problem today is arguably its highly unequal distribution of wealth and income, one of the most extreme in the world. By the 1990s, more than one out of four Brazilians continued to survive on less than one dollar a day. These socio-economic contradictions helped elect Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva in 2002." Wow.  There are a LOT of claims made here that aren't backed up by ANY facts or figures and are ENTIRELY unreferenced.
 * Government and politics
 * "One of the fundamental principles of the politics in the Republic is the multi-party system, as a guarantee of political freedom." Really?  Where is this principle written down?  A reference might be nice.
 * "The legal system is based on Roman law." Is it now? Who makes this claim?  A reference is needed to support it.
 * "The Union's executive power is exercised by the government, headed by the president, who is elected for a four-year term, and is allowed to be re-elected for one other term. Legislative power is vested in the National Congress, which is bicameral. The deputies of the Chamber of Deputies are elected every four years in a system of proportional representation by states." A reference to the part of the brazilian constitution that establishes this may be nice. Ditto for the section below it.
 * Law
 * I grow weary of quoting EVERY single claim that is unreferenced. This section is entirely unreferenced too.  At minimum, each paragraph should be referenced to a specific web page or text pages in a book that contains the information it was summarized from.  If it comes from multiple sources, each claim should be referenced to the source that provided it.  The Law section suffers from the same problems in this area as EVERY other section.
 * States
 * Ditto above.
 * Geography Ditto above. ALso, the lead makes several geographic claims that one might expect to be expanded on here.  They aren't.
 * Economy
 * YEAH! An inline reference! However, only one, and this section quotes MANY statistics which alas, we have NO idea where they come from.
 * Environment
 * We have 1 inline citation, and two "citation needed" tags... That might give you a hint that this article needs, um, citations??? Again, if you claim a fact is true, simply provide a source that verifies that it is.  Is that so hard?
 * Demography
 * No references, yada yada... Wait. I found two.  That makes 5 in the whole article.  Well, that's one less thing to do to fix it up.
 * Social issues
 * One actual reference, many more claims are made that go uncited, however.
 * Culture
 * Ditto on the references...
 * Also, this sentance: "The core culture of Brazil is rooted in the culture of Portugal." Um, this is SO non-neutral it jumps off the page.  Is Brazil simply a province of Portugal?  This is like saying that the U.S. Culture is essentialy the culture of England.  You would have a hard time convincing people on EITHER side of the atlantic that this was so...  Does Brazil not have its own unique culture distinct from the colonial power than hasn't been present for 150 years...
 * Religion
 * YEAH, some references. WHOO-HOO... And appropriately used.
 * WHOOPS, external links in the text. See WP:EL.  BOO-HOO...
 * Sports
 * unreferenced...
 * Science and technology
 * Some references, but many claims go unreferenced.


 * Exactly, this article is still far from being a "good article". Just check at all the fixes it needs. And as pointed out above, it was delisted following a review and a consensus. Alex  Covarrubias  Flag of Mexico.svg ( Talk? ) 03:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * For the Economy section, please read the article from 'the Economist' "Land of Promise", which accurately describes the country. [Roberto]

error in religious stats
http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=199&gclid=COOVgPaLiowCFRtxYAodOTlV7Q While as much as 74% of the population of Brazil may be nominally Roman Catholic, the trend since 1950, has been toward protestantism in Brazil, as in all Latin American Countries.12.72.205.220 00:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

74% are Roman Catholics (about 139 million)....58% of Catholics considered themselves "not very practicing" or "not at all practicing".[31] So the number of practicing Roman Catholics in Brazil is 42% of 74%!!!!! This second sentence belongs immediately after the first sentence, not at the very end. It changes the entire context of the claim made in the first sentence.

Also Brazil has a large, and growing, Anglican Church, with bishops, dioceses, cathedrals and seminaries that is not even mentioned!12.72.206.167 03:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

If religion were the only problem in Brazil! Luckilly we are a lay state, I wished we were a more rational and educated people. Freedom of religion is a must, including the possibility of having none. [Roberto]

GA Failed: Stop nominating this article until fixes are made.
No substantive fixes have been done to this article to make it comply with the good article criteria located at WP:WIAGA. A long list of fixes have been listed above, and no action has been taken on them. PLEASE stop renominating it at WP:GAC until the fixes have been made. It is a waste of time and resources to continue to do so. If this article continues to be renominated, mediation will be sought per WP:POINT. Please stop now. --Jayron32| talk | contribs 17:20, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Failed the page once again, while it has improved it still lacks enought references and it still has some of the problems listed above among them it's still over illustrated. - 凶 23:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

religion
Official Brazilian Anglican website http://www.anglicancommunion.org/tour/province.cfm?ID=B1

Official Brazilian Presbyterian website http://www.apib.org/history.htm

Official Mormons in Latin America website http://www.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=d10511154963d010VgnVCM1 000004e94610aRCRD Argentina 348,396 Belize 3,079 Bolivia 148,630 Brazil 928,926 Chile 539,193 Colombia 149,973 Costa Rica 34,036 Ecuador 170,736 El Salvador 93,246 Guatemala 200,537 Guyana 1,845 Honduras 116,416 Mexico 1,043,718 Nicaragua 52,184 Panama 40,897 Paraguay 61,308 Peru 416,060 Uruguay 96,943 Venezuela 134,597 TOTAL 4,580,720 (36% of Total LDS Church Membership) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.72.208.136 (talk) 01:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC).


 * Reliable sources. Data from the churches themselves is the very definition of unreliable. We have been through this before. Macgreco 04:24, 20 May 2007 (UTC)