Talk:Brazilian National Anthem

Untitled
This anthem represents some of the worse burilating aspects of Parnasianism, a style that was in vogue at the time. The first verse is so complicated that even most Brazilians don't really know the real meaning of it. As it stands, it should be noted that "do I(Y)piranga" actually modifies "as margens plácidas", something that in standard Portuguese is completely unwarranted by that word-order. -- Wtrmute


 * I believe that is called "sinédoque" in Portuguese grammar, i.e. an extreme inversion of normal word order. In standard Portuguese, one would say:


 * As margens plácidas do Ipiranga ouviram um brado retumbante de um povo heróico.


 * Te anthem on the other hand has:


 * Ouviram do Ipiranga as margens plácidas de um povo heróico um brado retumbante.


 * Although I actually happen to enjoy the anthem's music, I agree that the lyrics are totally incomprehensible to most modern-day Brazilians, not only because of its complex syntax, but also because of the abundant use of archaic words ('lábaro', 'garrida','impávido', etc..).I am not aware though of any serious proposals to change the lyrics. Besides, I doubt any proposed changes to the lyrics would gain support in Brazil. Mbruno 13:58, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

You are both absolutely right (except for the name of the phenomenon—not a sinédoque—, but that's not the point and I don't know it either!). The English translation was:
 * "The resounding cry of a heroic people / was heard by the placid banks of the Ipiranga",

which translates as both
 * "Pelas margens plácidas do Ipiranga foi ouvido / de um povo heróico o brado retumbante" (using passive voice, unlike the original), and
 * "Ouviram do Ipiranga às margens plácidas / de um povo heróico o brado retumbante", which is incorrect.

I changed it because it is both ambiguous and, even then, the possible translations are, respectively, inaccurate and incorrect.

The official lyrics,
 * "Ouviram do Ipiranga as margens plácidas / de um povo heróico o brado retumbante",

translate as ::"The placid banks of the Ipiranga heard / the resounding cry of a heroic people", and that's what I changed.

Other than stylistic corrections, the subject of the phrase ("the placid banks of the Ipiranga" / "as margens plácidas do Ipiranga") is not to be changed. To wrap it up, the anthem says:
 * "As margens plácidas do Ipiranga ouviram o brado retumbante de um povo heróico"

and not
 * "Ouviram o brado retumbante de um povo heróico às margens plácidas do Ipiranga"

Sorry for the rude tone (not directed to you, Wtrmute and Mbruno!), but this segment of the anthem has historically been edited over and over by users who believe that the first verse contains "às" instead of "as". By the way, because of this issue, wouldn't this article be a cantidate for protection? I'm not familiar with the process, requisites, etc. lampi 23:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's a nice grammar/meaning analisys of the most problematic parts of the anthem, in portuguese.Jully (talk) 02:18, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

About the translation
What was exactly the problem with the translation beside the original lyrics? Can I put it back? --FernandoAires 15:32, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I just submited a translation prepared by the Brazilian Embassy in London. Also changed the design of the page based on the one used in the translation of the Portuguese National Anthem --Leandroluso 04:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I have tried to clean up the translation quite a bit, since it did not seem to have been proofed by a native English speaker. I opted for 'thou' throughout since someone had already chosen that for at least part of it and 'tu' is archaic or literary in modern Brazilian Portuguese, but I wouldn't object to 'you' throughout either; it was just the mix that was not acceptable. I tried to leave as much as possible of the previous draft, but I'm still not crazy about 'star-spangled banner' as that phrase is so exclusively attached to the US flag in English. Does anyone have a definition of 'lábaro'? —Meliorist 17:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * "Lábaro" means flag. This word is commonly used to refer to the Roman Empire Army's standard, after the convertion to Christianism. --FernandoAires 16:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

An unregistered user, perhaps not a native English speaker, proposed translating 'nosso peito' very literally as 'our chests.' I am not convinced. The word 'breast' is used in the sense of 'chest' in figurative or poetic contexts, as here, meaning the seat of certain emotions; it does not only mean 'seio.' Conversely, 'chest' is primarily used literally, and could easily be misunderstood as a large wooden box, so it would sound strange to say that a chest defied something. (It still sounds a bit strange, but not as much.) Also, according to my dictionary, 'peito' has a second figurative meaning of 'courage,' which is why I added the adjective. There may still be a better solution, but it should be in idiomatic English. —Meliorist 00:34, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with the comment on the "the star-spangled banner". What's wrong with "the starry flag"? And the translation of this part changed so much of the original grammar that the contents of the side-to-side verses do not match. 201.41.232.207 07:06, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that the translation is still very awkward, and in some points incorrect. I made some very minor adjustments today, but I`ll try to look for a better flowing translation somewhere else. Translating songs and poetry is very difficult, and I`d say that this particular piece is incredibly hard, with the odd word order and all of the unusual vocabulary.Jully (talk) 02:04, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Wikisource
Isn't this article more apropriate for wikisource? Just wondering. PHF 04:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

First verse
As said above, and according to the official site of the Brazilian Government, the first verse is "Ouviram do Ipiranga as margens plácidas". Also, I think that the English translation could be changed to reflect that. --Dpc01 02:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Musicality
By changing the order of some words (just the order, not the content) you can make the english verses gain musicality, as it's intended in the original portuguese. It would be better this way, look:

"If we have fulfilled the promise of equality by our mighty arms, in thy bosom, O freedom, our brave breast death itself shall defy!" instead of "our brave breast shall defy death itself!"

There are more cases where this can be done. I'll rephrase them in three days if no one says a thing (and I guess no one probably will since this page isn't amongst the most viewed, huh?). Dualistico 21:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Tune
Aside from the lyrics, isn't it a distinctive, unconventional tune? I distinctly remember reading an article about national anthems a while ago, where a bunch of composers, musicologists &c decided that this was the "masterpiece of the genre" or something similar. Possibly on BBC News, though I can't find it on the site, and Google yields nothing. Anyway, it might be good to have something about the music itself in the article, as opposed to just the lyrics. 90.201.136.137 (talk) 23:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * That would make sense, considering it's the only national anthem I'm familiar with that is a march, while most others sound like waltzes. It's pretty unique. lampi (talk) 04:34, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Margens plácidas do Ipiranga
By restoring the regular (i.e. non-Parnassian) word ordering, the first verse states:

"As margens plácidas do Ipiranga ouviram o brado retumbante de um povo heróico",

revealing that the "de" in "do" (de+o) is a preposition of the Genitive case ("de posse"), *not* Origin case ("de origem"). "Do" is used to indicate that the "placid river banks" are those belonging to the Ipiranga river. This is reinforced by the fact that the independence cry was performed by Dom Pedro right at the river banks of Ipiranga. It makes no sense to say "From Ipiranga, the placid river banks heard" (which implies "Ipiranga" and "placid river banks" are separate locations) because said river banks are part of the Ipiranga; the scream was let out at that very place. lampi (talk) 19:47, 14 November 2010 (UTC)


 * So it should be "Ouviram as margens do Ipiranga..." istead of "Ouviram do Ipiranga as margens plácidas...", because in Portuguese, the owned thing precedes the owner.

''Em português, a coisa possuída precede o possuidor, estabelecendo entre ambos uma conexão através do conectivo de (o carro de João); porém, em inglês, possuidor precede a coisa possuída, fazendo a conexão relacional entre os termos através do acoplamento do ’s ao possuidor (“João’s car”). Por isso, fica-nos evidente que as estruturas se diferem pela inversão sintático-estrutural no posicionamento do possuidor e da coisa possuída,''

Marília Dias Ferreira - Estruturas Sintáticas Marcadoras de Posse em Português e em Inglês - p. 2

Universidade Federal do Triângulo Mineiro

--Luizdl (talk) 21:44, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

First, the link for your source is broken. Second, are you really quoting, in a discussion about a Parnassian composition—a style famous for reversing the order of words—an article about canon word ordering? Do you not realize that, by following the basic logic of your source, it would be unacceptable to have "de um povo heróico o brado retumbante", because the standard order in Portuguese would be "o brado retumbante de um povo heróico"? Are you saying it is wrong, or that it just a convenient exception? What you say makes absolutely no sense at all. Also, this is the English Wikipedia, so please write in English. lampi (talk) 00:58, 15 November 2010 (UTC) I'll try to be clearer: Yes, it should be "As margens plácidas do Ipiranga ouviram", but Parnassian styling is precisely about making reversions. You can see that in the second verse, which says "de um povo heróico o brado retumbante" but "should" be "o brado retumbante de um povo heróico". lampi (talk) 01:14, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Unofficial lyrics and the unofficial lyrics of the instrumental introduction to the anthem
The article does not deal in detail with the several unnofficial lyrics that were proposed to the anthem both in the Imperial and Republican eras, instead focusing on the the official anthem. Accordingly I today removed a section that had been added without prior discussion. The section now removed dealt with the unofficial lyrics that were once proposed (circa 1880) to the instrumental introduction of the national anthem. That section was poorly written, probably by a Portuguese native speaker with insufficient English language skills, and contained several false cognates. I could have fixed the vocabulary, but opted to remove the section. I did so not only because the inclusion had not been debated in the talk page, but mainly because it contained incorrect information. It stated that the anthem's instrumental introduction "had" lyrics, that were later not included when the present official lyrics of the whole anthem were adopted. Well, that is not the case. The proposed lyrics of the unofficial introduction were never more than a proposal. So the anthem did not have have said lyrics. Accordingly, this proposal should not be treated different when compared to other proposals. The fact that lyrics were proposed to the instrumental introduction may be interesting, but the fact remained that, under the directives in force at the time (during the reign of Emperor Pedro II), the anthem was to be played without lyrics. 189.122.100.112 (talk) 16:13, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

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Article Title
Why is it that the title of this article is in English, but the title of the Mexican National Anthem is in Spanish? Shouldn't we make the title of this article in the original language (in this case, Portuguese) too, for the sake of consistency? The G Wikian (talk) 18:39, 25 July 2021 (UTC)