Talk:Bree (Middle-earth)/Archive 1

Untitled
Hmm, Bree is a major character in "The Chronicles of Narnia: The Horse and His Boy" as well.

How embarrassing! I wrote "Middle-eastern" by mistake in the Summary field, instead of "Middle-earth". I guess there's no escaping the M.E. conflict, even in the king of escape literature.

They'll probably figure out some way to blame Israel for the War of the Ring. It seems like people have found a way to drag Israel into *everything* in Wikipedia that hints at oppression (apartheid, terrorism, 9/11 attacks...), whether they deserve it or not. Maybe Barliman Butterbur was actually an agent of Ariel Sharon?!? Modemac

Technically, this should be Bree (Middle-earth). If we can move pages (I.E., with histories) it maybe worth doing so, or we could just make this a redirect, or we could just leave it as it is. Doesn't anyone particularly care? I think maximising the consistency of our Middle-earth namespace would be a very good thing. --General Wesc

What's wrong with just calling it Bree? -- Zoe

Check at Bree: "Bree is also a municipality in Belgium" -- Tarquin

How can one say that Bree is mostly populated with men, the population is a mix of men and hobbits, and the only place in middle-earth where men and hobbits co-exist hormoniously! Somebody isn't doing their homework. AVI

New Image?
I have taken an image of Bree from Lord of the Rings online. Anyone mind if I put it on here?

Fair use rationale for Image:Breewide.jpg
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Cardolan?
What is the source that Bree was part of Cardolan? I've heard that before as being something Tolkien wrote, but it appears to contradict the description of the borders he gives in the Appendix, which says that the border between Arthedain and Cardolan is the road - Bree is on the northern (i.e., Arthedain) side of the road. I'm not doubting that Tolkien said it was in Cardolan, but I'm interested to hear the details. john k 03:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

You are right: the dike and hedgerow marking the boundary between Cardolan and Arthedain was well south of the East Road (see "Fog on the Barrow Downs"). I've changed "Cardolan" to "Arthedain" in the article. Elphion 16:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Name of Bree
It might be worth noting that "Brae" means "hill" in Scots, a language descended from Anglo-Saxon, an retaining more from it than English does - Duncan Sneddon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.35.212.48 (talk) 23:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I suspect "brae" is a Gaelic loan word in Scots (which as you say is derived from Old English). However I have no source to back this up.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:46, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * However, I have checked the OED and it says that "brae" is Germanic and related to "brow"...--Jack Upland (talk) 18:58, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Illustration
I think the illustration of Forsaken inn in the East Road should be put in the page.213.216.208.242 (talk) 06:46, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't. It's fan art and the forsaken inn isn't even in Bree. There is no need for it. GimliDotNet (talk) 15:26, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Supposedly...
Hi, I cut the following line from the beginning of the article.

> (Supposedly Tolkien also lived in Brill for a short while).

Its been there for more than ten years but no evidence was provided (the only reference provided made no such claim). 81.157.122.126 (talk) 07:01, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

"Harry Goatleaf" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Harry Goatleaf. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hog Farm (talk) 15:28, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Notability not established, we should redirect
Ah, I thought this had been sorted out, but I see it hasn't exactly. The problem with this article, about quite a minor place in Middle-earth, is that it really isn't Notable. Notability requires multiple, reliable, independent sources that substantially discuss the subject. That discounts all the primary (Tolkien) sources listed.

Of the 12 secondary sources listed, nos 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11 simply name individual actors who have played Butterbur. None of these mentions can be called "substantial". Ref #12 in GameChronicles is probably borderline reliable (what do we expect of writing about games, after all), and it at least mentions Bree in three places, so it might be borderline "substantial", though it says little about the place in actuality.

That leaves refs 1 to 5.

Ref 2 is to a dictionary of placenames. The short entry on Brill is relevant, but it does not mention Tolkien or Bree, and it does nothing towards notability. Ref 3 seems to be a small leaflet produced by a very small publisher in a small town which lays claim to a link with Bree, namely that one of its pubs inspired Tolkien's Prancing Pony Inn. Leaving aside the home-made look and doubtful reliability, it's a primary source. It cannot be said to do much towards notability. Ref 5 is to Janet Brennan Croft, a Tolkien scholar. She discusses Peter Jackson's films of The Lord of the Rings in detail, and in passing mentions events at Bree. This does not contribute to Bree's notability.

Ref 1 is by Tom Shippey, a major Tolkien scholar, and discusses the philology of the names "Bree" and "Brill". This contributes to notability. Ref 4 is a reliable source, and discusses Bree's landlord substantially, so it contributes to notability.

We thus have two sources that do something substantial towards notability; that is not enough to pass muster at WP:AfD (nor for that matter at WP:DYK or WP:GAN). The subject just isn't independently notable. Bree is covered adequately, with the usable sources already in place, in an illustrated section at The Shire: everything that needs to be said about the little place is said there. Therefore, we should redirect this Bree article over there. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:56, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, my problem with Bree being in the Shire article, is that Bree isn’t in the shire so it seems a bit odd for it to be in that article.


 * Bree would be better being in an article about minor places in middle earth - if such an article exists. It needs only a cursory mention on the shire article. GimliDotNet (talk) 05:44, 31 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks. There was a list of minor places; it was overwhelmingly deleted, as even its title shouted "I'm minor, I'm not notable" to everyone. So we have nowhere else for it to go. The Shire is actually quite a good home as Bree is the only other home to Hobbits in the whole of Middle-earth. Nobody's saying it is actually part of the Shire. Chiswick Chap (talk) 05:52, 31 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Disagree. Sorry, but Bree is pivotal in the history of LOTR and is, I believe, featured in later works... It is the home of prize goof, Barliman Butterbur, recurring character Bill Ferny, not to meantion Harry Goatleaf.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:59, 31 January 2023 (UTC)


 * If only that established notability... we'd be home and dry. I'll see if I can find a safe home for the little place. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:37, 31 January 2023 (UTC)


 * This is not a hill I want to plant my flag on, I just have a natural dislike of merging into articles are not explicitly about the same thing. I guess if the shire could be organised in such a way there was a section for “surrounding areas” that added details on Bree/The Old Forrest the elven towers etc I’d be more content. As it is I can give support for it going into the shire article. GimliDotNet (talk) 08:53, 31 January 2023 (UTC)


 * An idea: Frodo's five 'homely houses' - Bag End, Crickhollow, Bree's Prancing Pony, Tom Bombadil's house, and "the last homely house", Rivendell. Tolkien scholars and critics of Tolkien agree on the remarkable sequence of these comfortable places. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:13, 31 January 2023 (UTC)


 * OK, (and perhaps as well as writing Frodo's five Homely Houses), I've found some more reliable sources for this article and am tidying it up a bit. And drawing a map. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:38, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Damn fine work as ever GimliDotNet (talk) 19:55, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:10, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Bree Map.svg