Talk:Brenda Howard

Limoncelli correction
The 2006 BH awardee description includes the statement "has worked with Garden State Equality".

I am not affiliated with that organization. I think the intended organization was The New Jersey Lesbian and Gay Coalition. Citation: http://www.pflag-queens.org/bio-2006.html

Wikipedia has a policy (if I understand it correctly) that people should not make edits related to themselves. Therefore, I'm pointing out this factual error and requesting that someone review my citation and fix the error.

Thanks!

2021-09-23

TomLimoncelli (talk) 16:23, 23 September 2021 (UTC)Tom Limoncelli

Untitled
Ooo, now here's an article I could take on. I'll work on this soon. --Lizzard 19:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Christopher Street Liberation Day march
I've wikilinked Brenda's reference in Pride parade article and would like to verify her work with the Committee for this article. Pjefts (talk) 00:54, 22 April 2011 (UTC)


 * There are no mentions of Brenda Howard in the Christopher Street Liberation Day Umbrella Committee minutes and bulletins from 1970-1972. Stnwllr (talk) 03:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Personal life?
Section on her personal life is missing. Surely, the personal is political. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.250.240.87 (talk) 00:26, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110712215328/http://homolexis.com/glossary/index.php/Pride_(trope) to http://homolexis.com/glossary/index.php/Pride_(trope)

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External links modified
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://homolexis.com/glossary/index.php/Pride_%28trope%29
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130731012753/http://bimagazine.org/index.php/news/robyn-ochs-recieves-the-2011-pflag-queens-brenda-howard-award/ to http://bimagazine.org/index.php/news/robyn-ochs-recieves-the-2011-pflag-queens-brenda-howard-award/
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Mother of Pride
The line referring to Brenda Howard as "the Mother of Pride" was first added to Brenda Howard's Wikipedia page by User:CyntWorkStuff on 14 November 2005. This factoid now appears in three separate Wikipedia articles - Brenda Howard, Gay pride, and Pride parade. On the same day, User:Lordlnyc added a redirect link for "Mother of Pride" to the newly created Brenda Howard page. However, Wikipedia lists no sources for this epithet earlier than 2007. Here is one of the sources from 2007 -.

"Known as 'the Mother of Pride,' Howard, who grew up in Syosset, Long Island, originated the idea for a week-long series of events around Pride Day, which later evolved into the annual celebrations in June."

Compare this with the content of Brenda Howard's unsourced Wikipedia page from 2005 (see edit):

"She is also known as the 'the Mother of Pride', for her work in coordinating the first month anniversary rally, then the first year anniversary rally & march, (the Christopher Street Liberation Day March) to commemorate the Stonewall Rebellion. Howard also originated the idea for a week-long series of events around Pride Day, called Pride Week which became the genesis of the annual LGBT Pride celebrations that are now held around the world every June."

It is clear that this 2007 online article got its information directly off of an unsourced Wikipedia page. Therefore, there is no reliable source for the epithet "Mother of Pride" if it originated on Wikipedia and subsequent articles written on the subject used Wikipedia as a source. This is self-reference - Wikipedia is citing articles that are themselves using Wikipedia as a source. Unless there is a source that predates the 2005 Wikipedia entry, I believe this factoid should be removed. (Duke9000 (talk) 15:03, 1 August 2021 (UTC))

After looking into the origin of the sentences added by User:CyntWorkStuff in 2005, I found that they came from an obituary distributed by Brenda Howard's longtime partner, Larry Nelson ( nyabn.org). This is a memorial web page and two of the articles (one by Tom Limoncelli and one by Marla Stevens) reference Larry Nelson's words in order to credit Brenda Howard with the founding of Pride. It's noteworthy that Marla Stevens uses the phrase "Pride founding mother" and quotes Nelson as a source for this title. Since both the Limoncelli article and the Stevens article were posted on blog web sites and rely on Larry Nelson as a source for their commentary on Brenda's role in the founding of Gay Pride, I don't think they count as reliable sources. Furthermore, I found an article in the SF Bay Times ( link) that refutes the idea that Brenda Howard was known as "the Mother of Pride". This correction was signed by several members of the 1969–1972 NY Gay Liberation Front (Perry Brass, Ellen Broidy, Steven Dansky, Karla Jay, John Knoebel, Mark Segal, Martha Shelley, Allen Young). (Duke9000 (talk) 14:34, 7 August 2021 (UTC))


 * Hello I am SO sorry, I did not notice any of this or I would have of course answered your entirely reasonable question earlier. Yes there is (at least) one independent source that I used. It was from a well known Queer Magazine "Queerty", a publication written by/aimed primarily at Gay Men, from one of their long articles in "The Gay Pride Issue" entitled "Picking Apart The Origin of Pride" written by Andrew Belonsky and published June 18, 2007 at 5:06pm.  At one time this was one of the references for this article, sadly as you may (or may not) know there is an issue with LGBTQIA+ Articles on Wikipedia where malicious trolls with a variety of motives do come thru and not only vandalize but also delete large portions of articles.
 * I will of course immediately both put the info back in with this reference. Also I will also (after Pride is over at the end of June 2022) bring this early published reference to the attention of the author of the article in San Francisco, who was obviously both unaware of its existence and further was probably not aware that during the time period in question, in NYC  & the greater NE USA Region, there were at least three (maybe four) large and active "Homosexual/Gay Rights" groups with different, sometimes even somewhat combative ideas & memberships. Some, including the late Ms. Howard tried to "bridge the gaps" and shuttle back and forth between them, hoping to keep everyone moving in basically the same direction.
 * Even very well known LGBTQIA+ Persons of that time are quoted in various places about how differences in ideas of how to achieve equality, and even what equality looked like, caused misunderstandings and acrimony. Sadly it seems that some are still intent on refighting old wars and keeping alive old slights, misunderstandings, and hurt feelings from now over 50+ years ago. CyntWorkStuff (talk) 02:03, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
 * This is a troubling proposed reversal based on a blog essay with poor sourcing and at least one significant error that I found through a brief examination. The writer's claim that Gay Activists Alliance was a founder the Christopher Street Liberation Day march is easily refuted.  The march was proposed by two members of the NYU Student Homophile League and two members of the Homophile Youth Movement at the November 1-2, 1969 Eastern Regional Conference of Homophile Organizations (ERCHO) in Philadelphia, approved by resolution of ERCHO (Source: January 4, 1970 conference minutes).  Brenda Howard was not in attendance and, more importantly, GAA did not come into existence until seven weeks after the conference, all easily determined facts.
 * Equally troubling is the cavalierly dismissed signed statement of founding members of GLF in the RS San Francisco Bay Times. The signatories included an award winning gay journalist, Mark Segal, and noted academic, Ellen Broidy.  Describing their "intent" as "refighting old wars and keeping alive old slights, misunderstandings, and hurt feelings from now over 50+ years ago" without evidence is disdainful, contemptuous and disparaging.
 * As said, this reversal proposal is troubling on a number of points. And we haven't even touched upon this article's reliance on the many hearsay recollections of people (friends & family) who were not witness to the supposed events and facts that this article relies upon.
 * Absent presentation of any real RS to support the contention that Brenda Howard was ever considered to be the Mother of Pride by anyone from the period, I will oppose this proposed reversal at even greater length. Stnwllr (talk) 09:34, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

This term is also used of Brenda Howard in multiple other articles, so I've started a wider discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies with the aim of consistency. Please add any further comments there to avoid splitting the discussion. Thryduulf (talk) 09:49, 17 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi @Thryduulf. The discussion should actually happen on this talk page, as it's already started (per WP:TPG). You can read more at WP:TPG if interested. We do not want duplicate pages discussing the same issue. Cheers! --Kbabej (talk) 15:44, 18 July 2022 (UTC)