Talk:Bret Hart/Archive 1

Hart Injuries Versus Goldberg
I'm pretty sure Hart DOES hold a grudge against Goldberg for the injuries, especially since Goldberg refused to take the blame for them. I remember reading in an interview Hart stating that he "wishes he could kick Goldberg the same way he kicked me."
 * Cite this and it can be added to the article. Also, please add new section to the end of talk pages and sign your comments.  Thanks. X-Mack 01:36, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it was in a shoot interview.(Halbared 21:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC))


 * I've never read about him holding a grudge against Goldberg, if he did then he doesn't anymore since he said on his DVD set he doesn't have any bad feelings towards Goldberg. Spyke 02:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I've heard/read both, actually. I think he was (understandably) bitter at first, but has mellowed over the years --SHODAN 23:20, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * http://www.pwtorch.com/artman/exec/view.cgi/20/3738 These comments seem indictive of negativity, dated 2003, however I believe his DVD came out more recently, given the mans volitility however its not suprising if such opinions change rather quickly. B-Sacha 7/3/2007

Hall of Fame entry
It is stated that his ex-wife Julie is attending the Hall of Fame ceremony. Surely this is a mistake? Why would he attend with his ex-wife and not his current wife?

So what? Are Italians barred from attending the Hall of Fame induction ceremony?

Did the United States stop issuing entry visas or something? In fact, she doesn't even need one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Waiver_Program#Eligible_countries. Moreover, his current wife may hold a green card by marriage to Bret (who is also a US citizen). Do you have a source that his ex-wife is attending?

Your argument makes no sense. Julie is estranged from Bret, so the fact she was "around" during WWF career is irrelevant. Harry Smith on the other hand is a blood relation. I ask again, do you have a source that his ex-wife is attending? (and what you "believe" does not count as a source.)

Gosh you are real witchy about stuff aren't you?! Well you can be obsessed with Bret Hart all you want to be because it is stupid to be this way! User:MgTurtle Mar.23,2006

Do you have a source that says that Julie is estranged from Bret?! Because on her website it seems like they have a good relationship with each other so what source did you get this from? And by the way I haven't heard nor read that anyone is coming with him except for Harry Smith and I don't even think that is completely true.(User:MgTurtle 23 March 2006

I'm obsessed? You're the one making up factually incorrect statements about him. Divorce= Dissolution of marriage= estranged.

Just because they are divorced doesn't mean that they don't have a great relationship with each other! Estranged means that they are alienated from each other and I haven't read anything that says that they don't talk to each other. Neither one of them have said that their divorce was ugly so I ask again do you have a source that says that they are not on speaking terms with each other? I haven't find anything yet. And by the way I'm not the one who started the rumor in the first place, I just tried to help it out. You act like people can't make mistakes. Gosh. User:MgTurtle Mar.24,2006.

Julie Hart has confirmed that she will be attending the Hall of Fame ceremony with her and Bret's four children. And Harry Smith has been confirmed to be attending the Hall of fame ceremony as well. [www.wrestlingworld.com] User:MgTurtle Mar.28,2006.

Okay. Is there a source,besides the Wrestlemaina 22 DVD that has Bret's Hall of Fame induction speech. Just wondering. Thanks. User:MgTurtle Apr. 7,2006.

No, WP is not for primary sources. (Also, just a note to everyone here: please remember to sign your comments, it helps to keep track of discussion. Thanks.) Bcarlson33 17:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Emotionally volatile
First, could we please see the source of these interviews where Hart admits to being emotionally volatile?

Second, Hart did not change his mind about the DVD set because of being "emotionally volatile." He decided he wanted his side of the story told rather than having it told for him. That's not being "volatile." It's much more likely he simply decided to start letting go of a years-old feud with the company. Bcarlson33 22:43, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * . This was already listed in "references"; in future, please read the sources provided before removing information from articles. Thank you. McPhail 16:10, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I've already seen this link. It directly contradicts the "emotionally volatile" explanation. Bret clearly states that his relationship with the company changed because Vince made a point of calling him while he was recovering from his stroke. "Emotionally volatile" does not belong in the section in question. It's unwise to assume that I don't read sources, or to lecture me about basic points of fact about those sources. Bcarlson33 20:43, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * "I'm not expecting to do the Hall of Fame. Maybe some time or some day, but I just feel, maybe it's because of my stroke, but I don't feel like I'm ready for that yet". This just after he stated that "For me, with my stroke, I have a lot of trouble with emotional issues in the sense that if something is pulling at my heat strings, I can't control my emotions. I can have these heartfelt moments and the tears can come, and for me, it's very draining, very uncomfortable to find yourself fighting back tears all the time." It is important to note that Hart was (initially, at least) unwilling to be inducted due to his stroke and the issues arising from it. McPhail 22:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Two things. First, those quotes sound as if he's saying he's not sure he'd be able to handle the rush of emotions that would inevitably result from his induction into the HoF. While that certainly involves Bret's emotional state, it's a very different thing than saying he changes his mind because of emotional volatility. Being "volatile" implies he changes his mind randomly because he's mentally unstable. These quotes directly contradict that; it would be more accurate to say he claimed he wouldn't be emotionally ready to handle being inducted.


 * Second, and more importantly, chalking this up to emotions neglects the much longer story of Bret's relationship with Vince McMahon and the WWF/E. Bret has had "Montreal" as a main menu link on his website for years, and has mentioned the event in essentially every interview he's done since it happened. Bret's mixed feelings over the WWF/E date back before his stroke, when he would publicly bring up his anger over Montreal yet privately encourage WCW wrestlers like Chris Benoit that they needed to jump to the WWF to truly "make it." Every action Bret takes regarding WWF/E needs to be viewed through the lens of his history with the company, and his decision to be inducted into the HoF after initially saying no is certainly no exception. Bret himself alludes to this in both the interview you cited above and an interview with Slam Wrestling: "Vince McMahon called me up when I had my stroke in 2002, and I think that was a big step towards where we are now. I always appreciated the fact that he called me and that softened a lot of the bad feelings between us." Bcarlson33 01:49, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not particularly attached to the current phrasing, but I do think it should be noted somewhere that Hart suffers from "emotional issues" due to his stroke. McPhail 16:47, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

External Fansite Link
Hi, I've added my site to the external links, but it keeps getting removed. It is the only regularly updated Bret Hart dedicated website on the web, even more so than BretHart.com, therefore I feel its relevant to be there, as it holds more information on Bret than any of the other sites listed. I understand if any of you guys want it removed, but please take the time to visit the page, and maybe even feeding back in my forum as to why you disagree, if you do remove it. I must also point out, that the site is non-profit and I only have it running so Bret fans can find out about the Hitman, and join a community of avid likeminded fans. Cheers guys! Kevin Smith


 * I don't speak for everyone on Wikipedia, but I think that there needs to be a general consensus to keep a fan site on the external links. Especially considering it was a self posting. tv316 13:29, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, can you explain what you mean by general consensus?


 * I mean that a majority of the people in the Wikipedia community (who at least visit this article} need to decide among each other if it should go on as an external link. tv316 15:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, sounds like a good idea to me! You had a look at the site yourself? Whats your opinion? Do you think its relevant?


 * I think that your site is a nice fan site for Bret Hart fans (myself included). The problem with linking to it here is that all of the information on your site can be found in this Wikipedia article or on the already existing external links. tv316 15:57, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

How about a compomise then, if we put a link to this page http://www.itechnet.co.uk/matchhistory.php, as i dont see this on any of the sites listed, this being his (nearly) full match history, i.e. every single match he has had. This also ties in with what wikipedia is all about. Do you agree?


 * Can all the information on that page be verified? If it can, I, personally, wouldn't mind seeing it on there. Of course, there should be some other opinions about it from other contrbutors. tv316 16:08, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

The only way to verify it is to check every match. I have checked most of them, especially the random ones, like the UK house shows(which i attended, so know they are correct), but I suppose again its up to the majority of the users here if you want the link added. Anyone else want to provide their opinion?

I am going to add it under external references, nobody seems to have voiced an opinion, and I think Bret Harts entire match history is relevant to his Wikipedia article. Again if anyone has a problem, please feedback in here before changing it.

Bret Sergeant Hart?
Does anyone have a story about Bret Hart's middle name? I haven't seen anything but it seems like a name that has a story or something behind it. Thanks User:MgTurtle M24,2006

In the Stu Hart biography _Lord of the Ring_ by Martha Erb (sp?), it was mentioned that Stu's mother Fannie had the maiden name Sargent. It stands to reason. Kelly 05:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible to have someones IP blocked?
My site (www.brethart.info) have a reference link to Bret Harts entire match history. This was agreed upon a while ago, and since then the content from my site has been copied, and every time I come back here this third rate site has changed the link to there site. Can anything be done about this?

Yes. Edit the link and then sign your comments. Bcarlson33 22:19, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Match history ridiculousness
Due to the ridiculous back and forth of whose site should be used for Bret's match history, I'm removing it from the article. And I suggest it remains that way until some sort of consensus has been reached. Personally, I think a match history is a valuable resource but not if it's going to lead to some lame revert war. X-Mack 02:20, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Elaboration on Stampede Days
Before becoming a member on Wikipedia, I added some info on Bret's Stampede days because I felt that needed more elaboration. I mentioned his feud with Dynamite Kid and wrestling with his father, Stu. But the information I added is gone now. It doesn't make sense to get rid of that important information, and I feel Bret's page needs more elaboration on his decision to become a wrestler, his Stampede days, and his time in Japan. All the information I wrote was obtained by watching his DVD set, so I don't think there was a need to cite sources.

Today, I also added a list of all the Video Games Bret appeared in over the years. It took a little while to gather them all, so please don't delete that.


 * Please do not add lists to articles per Embedded list. There is a category for Professional wrestling games, within which an article about professional wrestlers and the games they appeared in could be created. McPhail 13:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, yeah, there is a need to cite sources. See WP:CITE. Thanks and happy editing! --Jtalledo (talk) 20:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Stats
There isn't a listing for Bret Hart on www.celebheights.com but this appears to be the best thing to havibg a listing. http://www.celebheights.com/s/Stone-Cold-Steve-Austin-1228.html (Halbared 13:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC))

Re: I've seen Bret billed as both 6' and 6'1 throughout his career and I've seen him stand face to face w/ Steve Austin and they're pretty much the same height, no more than an inch between them, even less. Despite celebheights, I've seen other 'true heights' lists and Austin was listed as either 6'1, 6'2, and 6'3 w/ 6'2 being the most common


 * I do find it difficult to belieeb that Steve Austin is not 6 ft 2 in, it is the height he has always been billed at. Whereas Bret's height has fluctuated over the years.(Halbared 14:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC))

Re: I've only seen Bret billed as either 6' or 6'1. Judging by that I wouldnt find it hard to believe that Bret is 6'1 because in a picture of him standing face to face w/ Austin, he was the same height, although I'd give a slight edge to Austin because he has no hair

Origin of the Sharpshooter?
In his DVD, Bret Hart says Konnan is the one that taught him Sting's Scorpion Deathlock. In his 06/04/2004 IGN interview for "Showdown: Legends of Wrestling", Bret Hart states: "I learned it in Japan. It was more of a Japanese move that I learned when I first got in the business, but it was a move I didn't do for a long time. It's been around for a long time, but I was doing it before Sting was doing it." 
 * Don't know about this. That's the danger of primary sources. In my opinion, the more likely explanation is the one on the DVD. There's a chance Hart might have come across the move (the "sasore gatame" or something) while training with the Japanese wrestlers that he mentions taught him during his days in Stampede Wrestling, but not picked it up until Konnan came along. There's no mention of Hart ever extensively working in Japan before his WWF days and before Sting adopted the move. I believe he began doing the move as his finisher in 1992, which is around the time Konnan made his run in the WWF, adding more credibility to Hart's claim on the DVD. --Jtalledo (talk)

If you watch the DVD, it says he had already knew about the sharpshooter, but didn't know how to apply it completely. so, maybe he learned it at first in Japan, but actually learned how to apply it from Konnan, like he said in his DVD interview User_talk:ihavasthma91 (talk)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.194.174.58 (talk) 02:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Playing Alladin
http://www.rosspetty.com/aladdin2006posterwdates.jpg

Should this piece of his after pro-wrestling career be added to his page? 129.33.49.251 13:27, 1 August 2006 (UTC)pusarf

Hall of Fame?
Does anyone know who inducted Bret into the George Tragos/Lou Thesz Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame? Was he inducted by anyone? Thanks.MgHoneyBee 02:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No specific wrestler/manager/etc. inducted him. I believe the committee simply inducts whomever they choose. I attended the incredibly humid, crowded, and prolonged ceremony (see the photo I added to the article) and the wrestlers were simply handed their plaque and spoke a few words before sitting in folding chairs. I have some other photos from the event, and I'd be happy to offer any other info you're curious about. Cale 22:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks.MgHoneyBee 13:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Finishing and signature moves
I made the ff. additions to Bret's moveset:

- suicide dive

His aerial maneuver

- plancha

An aerial maneuver which Bret uses to shift the momentum to the opponent's side

- bulldog

Sometimes incorporated into the so-called "Five Moves of Doom"

- small package, roll-up, crucifix, sunset flip

Together with the victory roll, they're what I call Bret's (no pun intended) "Five Pinfalls of Doom", which he often incorporates in a recurring series of spots in his matches. The small package, in particular, is probably his most infamous pinfall maneuver, often used in his trademark "goldbricking/playing possum" spot.

-- Marikina 2:25 am, 08 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, but keep the "five moves of doom" term out of the article. It's a term limited mostly to internet fans, and there is some debate as to what exactly the "five moves" are. McPhail 00:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Goodwill to Goldberg?
I heard him say on Australian TV "Rove Live" referring to the incident that iunjured him that Goldberg was an "animal"

www.brethart.info
I find it quite insulting that my link keeps getting removed from this article. My site IS the most active Bret Hart site on the web, has its own ORIGINAL media section, i.e. we have had 2 seperate music tracks made based on Brets theme music. We have met him and conducted interviews on three occasions, we have the most information on the man compared to any other resource on the web, and we have a MASSIVE forum. This link probably deserves to be here more than brethart.com. A LOT of time and effort has gone into this site, and the link WAS allowed before "rival" sites decided to come and start spamming. Check the history. Itechnet 01:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Big stupid Dummy
Is this really true, or did someone just added it for his own pleasure. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 157.24.204.152 (talk) 09:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

Yes, he did actually say that in WCW when addressing Sid, I remember watching it live and later on youtube (although the video seems to have been removed). There are still thousands of references to it on google, alone, some from recaps of the show. --Jimmy Wang Yu: Version 2 18:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Bret Hart favorites
Why does everyone keep on deleting the Bret Hart "favorites" topic? I really find it interesting and I'm sure other people will to. If you guys want me to post it under a headline such as "Miscellaneous" or "Other", then tell me.

I'm sorry, but I find it unecesarrily lengthens an already lengthy article, and I don't find all his favorites that notable as it pertains to his career and overall life. Not to mention, I don't see sections like that in other articles that are classified as biographies of living persons. B mg 9 1 6 Speak to Me 20:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The Hitman
Surely it should say Bret "The Hitman" Hart, not Bret "Hitman" Hart? 193.1.172.104 02:51, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Children's b-days
Does anyone have a source for their birthdays since I couldn't find them in the sources listed. Thanks. (MgTurtle 23:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)).

Julie Hart's Website
Should her website be on Bret's page? It used to be until someone took it off. The address is http://www.juliehart.ca/.(MgTurtle 00:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)). there birthdays are..jade michelle hart march 31,1983[ dallas jeffery hart,aug,11,1984,alexandria sabina may 18th,1988 blade coleton hart june4th 1990,michele rene.october 5th 1991.his 5th kid from his affair.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.120.9.46 (talk) 12:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

What's happening now?
Does anyone know what's Bret up to now that he's finished his autobiography?Is he still married to Cinzia?Anyone have any updates?(MgTurtle 04:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)).
 * It was reported about 2 weeks ago, that Bret had quietly divorced Cinzia 3 weeks prior. That she didn't want to leave Italy and he didn't want to spend the rest of his life there.  I would add this to the article, but don't know how to source that. Yagobo79 12:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If you can provide a reliable source (no wrestling dirtsheets), then yes it can be added. Davnel03 12:53, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

i just finished Bret's book and he does indeed state that he and Cinzia have gone thir separate ways, and that's as much accurate information as you are likely to get on the subject..the book is exceptional by the way... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.168.86 (talk) 16:05, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If you do have the book, can you provide me with the exact book name, who published it and the page number, then it can go into the article. Thanks! Davnel03 17:35, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The book is called 'Hitman' My Real Life in the Cartoon World of Wrestling. Published by Random House Canada, 2007.  ISBN 978-0-307-35566-9.  (http://www.randomhouse.ca/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780307355669)  The quote is on page 551.  "I married the beautiful Italian girl with the piercing blue eyes.  Cinzia showed me her diary from 1995, when she was fourteen, where she'd written that someday she'd marry me.  She did, but by the time I'd finished writing this book, we'd called it quits simply because she could never be so far away from her home country and family." Yagobo79 03:57, 12 November 2007 (UTC)yes bret hart found another lady named debi m she had his 5th kid in 91 and he told deb he was in love with her and has no regrets of the affair..

bret got a divorce from cinzia in 2007 she was 23 when they got married that was way to young i believe that was part of the reason beside of her not moving to canada, because she was very young for him..he has found debi again and has something to ask her well we have to wait until it happend —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.120.9.46 (talk) 12:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Wrestling With Shadows
No mention of this fantastic documentary...unless I overlooked it in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nhansen (talk • contribs) 05:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

brethart.info
Someone keeps adding this website to the external links section. It has been removed at least 3 times in the last week or so as per WP:EL. Does this count as vandalism? Yagobo79 16:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Not vandalism, but it is spamming. I'd leave a on a persistent users talk page, and go up from there.  Bmg 916 Speak 16:04, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

"In popular culture"
One of the bullets says the following:
 * Despite the Montreal Screwjob, Hart made a statement that nobody had beaten him for the World title in both of the respective promotion that he has been with referencing that he did not get "beat" for the WWF Championship when he briefly had a short stint as a WWA Commissioner 

What does this mean? He's a 5-time WWE champion and a 2-time WCE champion...he's been beaten by several people (Yokozuna, Backlund, Psycho Sid, etc). He vacated the WCE World title during both his reigns but he's lost world titles before. I don't understand what we're trying to say here. I've added a tag to that bullet AreJay (talk) 06:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

He means he wasn't beaten for his last title in either promotion. He was "screwed" to lose his last WWF title and he forfeited his WCW title due to injury —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rayfinkle1 (talk • contribs) 16:49, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism
this article was vandalized by User:140.144.175.91 at 01:06, 29 April 2008 he/she deleted the championships and accomplishments. I fixed it. Adster95 (talk) 16:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

and? RandySavageFTW (talk) 17:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Accomplishments littering intro
Looks very messy and kills intro. Already listed in GREAT detail within proper section. 7-time world champ will surely suffice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.20.127 (talk) 02:26, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

See Also: Montreal Screwjob
A lot of articles have a "See Also" section that links to other Wikipedia articles of similar content (for example, Shoot (professional wrestling) has list of professional wrestling slang in its see also section). Don't you think Bret Hart's article should have a see also section with the Montreal Screwjob in it? I'd put it in myself, but I'm not sure it would be welcome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.88.54.28 (talk) 00:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :) DumZiBoT (talk) 03:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "OWOW" :
 * Hart Foundation Profile
 * Hart Foundation Profile

Stu Hart's Hall of Fame inductions
The article mentions controversy related to both inductions, but doesn't really give any details on how or why, just lists some names and what Bret said at one of the ceremonies to some guy. Curious to read more about it but it isn't fleshed out on Stu Harts or the WWE Hall of Fame page either.

Bloodstained Memoirs
It seems that a number of relentless, overbearing proponents for this obscure DVD are consistently trying to introduce anti-Hart material into the article. The citations provide links to juvenile, profanity-laced MySpace blogs featuring biased, derisive claims about Hart. These are clearly not valid citations. There are a select few editors who are determined to introduce this material, all of whom have a striking number of contributions to the article of this obscure DVD... I think I need not spell it out. Sidney West (talk) 08:40, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

All "Other Arena" citations are dead
A huge portion of this article is not supported. This mass of material is dubious and now viable for deletion by anyone at any time. Tablas666 (talk) 09:35, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Racial and homophobic remarks?
I don't think this should have it's own section because it was part of storyline. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to have it in the same section as his real-life feud with Ric Flair —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rayfinkle1 (talk • contribs) 16:47, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

THERE IS A MENTION ABOUT BRET HART BEING INDUCTED INTO THE GEORGE TRAGOS/LOU THEZ PROFESSIONAL HALL OF FAME IN WATERLOO IOWA--BRET HART WAS INDUCTED IN 2006 WHEN THE MUSEUM WAS STILL IN NEWTON IOWA--THE INCIDENT DESCRIBED IN WATERLOO HAPPENED IN 2008 AND IT WAS HIS FATHER STU HART WHO WAS INDUCTED NOT BRET!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.193.18.28 (talk) 18:49, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Bloodstained Memoirs
I see this has already been noted above. Proponents for this obscure, low-budget DVD have been trying for a long time to insert sensational material regarding a "strong conflict" between Hart and his management and the DVD's utterly unknown producer. Of course, Hart doesn't even know that the guy's been born. The "conflict" consists of the guy asking for Hart's involvement, Hart turning it down, and the the guy posting a load of juvenile myspace blogs deriding Hart. This should clearly be noted in article, as that's what the "conflict" consists of. Hart hasn't, and likely never will, acknowledge juvenile blogs from novice film producers. The fact he hasn't responded since this questionable material has been forcefully inserted (repeatedly by usernames and IP's which have an overwhelming number of edits to the Bloodstained Memoirs page) will remain noted in article. Brendan Heron (talk) 22:02, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I suggest you take a break. There is no agenda, there is no conspiracy. There are simple editors trying to adhere to a neutral point of view and report the facts as linked on the references. So I suggest you calm down and stop vandalising this page, especially with threatening hidden warnings. Darrenhusted (talk) 22:24, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Best not to vandalise pages, then accuse other editors of doing so. If you have an agenda, that's your problem, not the world's. You're the one not adhering to WIki policy. "Strong conflicts" is a massive NPOV vio - you know this, as does everyone. The producer of an unknown DVD doesn't like Hart - big deal. Lots of people don't. Why should his myspace ranting be featuring on WIkipedia over anyone else's? Utter nonsense, and blatant bad faith editing from yourself. Brendan Heron (talk) 15:46, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Can you cite your sources please "Brendon", as far as I can see, you are mostly wrong. It is you who clearly has an agenda here and a desperatre need to change the context of the article. Google the incident. Bret Hart's official website covered the story at one point. The initial message was NOT on a MySpace as you are wrongly trying to say. You keep on saying "novice" with no reason, obviously trying to discredit things with no citing whatsoever. I've just checked the IP's, and you are lying again! Only a few editors have edited the Memoirs page, amongst other things. You state the producer is "utterly unknown", but where has he ever tried to make himself been known? Nobody has even named him in the article. Sounds to be like Brendon hold some very SOUR grapes (and how fitting from a Bret Hart camp) and is most probably Marcy Engelsin, the woman who got ripped apart for her incompetence in the article (and is known for posting a lot online in forums) which is trying to be swept under the rug, which is ridiculous because you are only drawing more attention to it. You have no right also to say the things you have been saying to Darren, who is another person brining an unbiased view to the table.

If this continues, I will be taking the matter to an admin who has no wrestling knowledge. I can gaurntee you that admin will thrown upon your editing on cited sources. I will also bring the entire bret Hart article into question, and question why it is written like a shrine from start to finish. An admin with no wrestling knowledge will dump on it in a second, lock it, and have it edited to paint a more balanced picture in fitting with Wiki guidelines. I will act on this today if needed. Commoncase (talk) 09:19, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

EDIT: And take a look at how EVERY editor who has tried to remove the Memoirs section from the Hart article speaks and writes the same way, trying to hit the same points with no citing. Pay strong attention to my last paragraph above. Commoncase (talk) 09:21, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

What makes it an obscure DVD exactly? Is it all those huge names which star in it, as well as all the news sites which pick up on it? Just curios. The fact it is listed on Wiki in the first place confirms it is notable, as obviosuly articles have to go through a full check. And I too am wondering why the vandal of the article keeps on ranting about a MySpace, when its clear the MySpace is a networking site, CC of what was put on an official website (not to mention Bret Hart's opwn website). Just take it to an admin and get the vandal suspended, then wait for "another" editor to come along and make identical vandal edits to serve a purpose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.77.107 (talk) 14:38, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Taking this to a senior mod right now. I warned people not to vandlise this portion, and it was ignored. Commoncase (talk) 15:25, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not vandalism, it's a minor content dispute. I don't understand why you are so adament this be mentioned, but you keep adding downplayed wording. It doesn't even mention the producers' name or any specific comments. I figured it didn't add much to the article and didn't get a lot of google his (3100 + 2 google news, but both were non-RS wrestling sites). Considering that Hart himself - allegdly - hasn't even responded yet, how major can it be? -- Scorpion 0422  15:28, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Scorpion, how the article is currently edited paints an unbiased picture. The producers did state Hart's camp was unprofessional. The article is in Wiki guidelines, it cites it sources and does not offer commentary on the fact. You are trying to remove the fact with your own commentary and opinions. It was also reported (and established) that Hart's official website reported on the incident. Whether Hart himself has ever publicly commented on this I don't know. Then again, had Gary Glitter ever commented on accusations of being a peadophile recently? Makes the accusations no less valid if they are founded and cited. I am not adament on this incident being mentioned, I am adament on it being taken down for invalid reasons. Wiki is not meant to be a fan shrine (something I have largely ignored about the Hart page, which I can flag at any second to be edited down by a senior mod who will no doubt clearly agree as its black and white). The fact is, this particular piece has been attempted to get taken down by various people FOR MONTHS all stating the same unfounded slurs, all using VERY similar language. I am sick to my back teeth of it. Commoncase (talk) 15:40, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't edited this page much, so I don't know why you are accusing me of making this page a "fan shrine", but I do agree that it needs some improving. The fact is that a lot of pages for big-name wrestlers are like that. Looking through the sources, you have WNW, WZ, WUO and WT, none of which are considered by WP:PW to be reliable sources. Notability is determined through reliable third-party sourcing, which it lacks, and the wording is biased against Hart (it accuses him of "grossly unprofessional behavior" without any information about what his behaviour was) and it just show's the producers' point of view and is very vague. If this was reported in, say, Slam! wrestling, which is just about the most useable wrestling news site, it would be different. As for your accusations of sockpuppetry, I encourage you to file a report. -- Scorpion 0422  15:50, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Look, making this plain and simple for you. The article does not accuse Hart of anything. It stated an independednt entity accused Hart of something. That's what you need to understand. An accusation Hart's OFFICAL website mentioned, as well as the films offical website (which is not a MySpace as you are trying to claim). That's it in a nut shell, case closed. you have no right to take that information down. This has been made painfuly clear to you many times, ignoring this constitutes towards vandilism which can result in account suspension on a perm basis. Commoncase (talk) 15:57, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes it does. It accuses him of "grossly unprofessional behavior" and that wouldn't be so bad if there was information about what his behaviour was. But there isn't, so it just represents the producers' opinion and not much else. Also, since you believe I am just a vandal, I encourage you to report me for vandalism. -- Scorpion 0422  16:00, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I just find it funny that gong through the article history, one person has been trying to take this down for months using the same rude reasons which are A) false B) not cited anywhere. Brendon above is stupid enough to even reference an above posters complaint about Bloodstained Memoirs, however when you check that posters edit out (Sidney West) they both use the EXACT same language. EXACT SAME LANGUAGE. It is well known MARCY ENGELSTEIN (Bret Hart's manager) posts in internet forums all the time, so if I was a betting man, I'd say this is HER trying to take the article down. After all, it is HER who comes out of it looking terrible, after all. My advise would be stop worrying about how to cover up situations, and act with credability and honor in the first place to avoid bad situations. 92.11.240.228 (talk) 08:34, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait, so are you accusing me, Brandon and Darren of being the same person? If so, I strongly encourage you to go to WP:SPI. -- Scorpion 0422  21:17, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Look I made a revert because it was uncited, then I made a revert because one user pus a CAPS LOCK invisible warning. When I have reverted I have reverted to a version that was last used by Scorpion, the reason being that I know him (not personally but we have occasionally edited the same pages, and even exchanged words on occasions about things we agree and disagree over). SO if my edits look like Scorpion's then it is because I am reverting to the last version by him. I don't trust most edits made by IPs or users with less than 500 edits, so I will revert back to version by editors whom I recognise. On some occasions that edit may not be the "right" version, sometimes even editors I have known for the last three years can be wrong, but as Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopaedia then this is not a problem, as the version can be changed. However if one editor continually reverts while three or four editors are reverting back then that one editor needs to rethink their strategy. Darrenhusted (talk) 21:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Seems safe to say that Commoncase and all these random IP's which are desperate to introduce this sensational material, are either the "producer" of, or are heavily involved in this obscure DVD. Nobody could be this desperate to introduce sich pathetic material, which obviously attempts to deride Hart due to a personal vendetta and make the "producer" of this obscure DVD look like they are somebody. The fact that you know the name of Bret Hart's manager, and have an overwhelming number of contributions to the article of this obscure DVD merely serves to bolster my point... Brendan Heron (talk) 04:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Why does Brendan (Marcy) have a serious case of the taking things around in circles bug? She levels one obsurd claim, it gets responded to with facts which disproves said nonsense, yet she still claims it. Its all above folks, just read it. Her brilliant assumption that I am involved with this product is based around the fact I know her name. Ever stop to wonder that's because I have actualy read the article of which I am editing? You really couldn't make such stupidity up.

Nor could any unbiased entity call this product obscure. What makes it obscure? All those wrestlers that are in it (many of whom are bigger names than Hart) to star in, and help promote it? The fact that it has had national magazine and newspaper coverage? TNA have given it footage? Again, very clear what's going on here.

And again, I'm not so much bothered about the article going up, it just makes me sick to see the reasons its trying to get taken down. Stated many times, convineantly ignored also in order for Marcy to paint her argument to protect her client.

Now this has really pissed me off now. I will personaly see to it that the entire Bret Hart wiki article gets sorted out and I don't care how long it takes. From the stupidly long intro, to the many, many uneccasary writings within it. You have stabbed yourself in the foot here Marcy. Commoncase (talk) 08:53, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, I love the display of intellegence you are giving this. Giving it so much attention that by default, its now going to show up in more and more Google searches. If I ever get a PR, I will be staying far, far away from you Marcy. Commoncase (talk) 09:23, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "Marcy"? Premium idiocy. I am a 23 year old, male wrestling nerd from the UK. Run a check on my user and you'll see I'm with Tiscali UK. Perhaps I was wrong to assume that you are involved in the making of this obscure DVD, but you are certainly an ardent proponent for it, to the point of overwhelming bias. Give it a rest and accept the fact that the "strong conflict" is merely toddler-esque profane rambling from the producer of this painfully obscure DVD. Brendan Heron (talk) 13:43, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a bias, I just don't want the page looking any more like a biased shrine than it already does. As explained earlier, how the article was originaly was accurate. The film maker DID claim that of Bret and his manager. I'm not saying he was right or wrong. But its a FACT, he DID CLAIM it. That's the bottom line. Its all cited with reasoning - and NOT in a MySpace as people are trying to say in a desperate bid to discredit it. Now if you wanted to add "Hart did not respond" you are more than welcome to do that, as again, that is factual. But be prepared for somebody to point out that Hart's own website DID respond. Commoncase (talk) 13:58, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

EDIT: And again with the whole "obscure" thing. it just discredits EVERYTHING you say as being a biased troll. Commoncase (talk) 14:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Say whatever you want. "Obscure" would be the correct term. Bret Hart's 2005 DVD package would be a popular DVD release, as would Michaels and Flair's DVD packages - this one is an obscure release. The fact remains that "strong personal conflict" is unfounded and a massive NPOV vio. Brendan Heron (talk) 18:06, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As it stands at this moment (as I write this) I think the paragraph accurately reflects the situation. Hart didn't want to take part (and has a rep for being awkward) and the producers made disparaging remarks (what those remarks were is not important, on this article). Brendan Heron has made 134 edits, and has been warned several times about his/her behaviour (which he/she seems to think is vandalism). Commoncase has made 196 edits although since February 2008 they seem to have done nothing but push Bloodstained Memoirs. Personally I don't care about Commoncase, I don't care about Brendan Heron and I don't care about Bloodstained Memoirs, what I care about is improving articles. Enough ink has been spilled on this with empty threats from both sides (although Brendan does well to accuse 1, 2, 3 editors with combined edits of 155,000 of vandalism), so for now I think both editors should take a step back and leave this article alone. As it stands that paragraph is as NPOV as it can get and the language is as moderate as could be expected. Darrenhusted (talk) 00:13, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "Commoncase has made 196 edits although since February 2008 they seem to have done nothing but push Bloodstained Memoirs." I had hoped for impartial editing when I read this, but the current version of the article simply retains the smug bias that Commoncase was looking for, with his pro-Bloodstained Memoirs agenda. "Strong" remains a sickening NPOV violation - I see no grounds for argument. Whatever. I am a lone ranger battling for an impartial view against a sea of proponents for this painfully obscure DVD, it would seem. Brendan Heron (talk) 06:20, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

As a lone ranger Brendan I suggest you read this. Because lone rangers end up being blocked for violating 3RR. Darrenhusted (talk) 08:23, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

The exact same "usual" edits trying to blah blah on about a MySpace page (unfactual) and "Profane" (subjective) were made from another lone IP. Surely this must be embarrasing for all concernd in the hart camp? People aren't stupid, they can see what is going on. The issue is dead, get over it you bitter, bitter people. Commoncase (talk) 15:05, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "Get over it", excuse me but who is responding to an eight week old post? The matter was resolved long ago. Darrenhusted (talk) 15:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Im afraid that "profane" is 100% supported. Challenging it has no weight - cite uses the word "PROFANE" in capital letters before presenting a copy of the MySpace blog (yep, it was a MySpace blog, so that's 100% supported too). "Strong" is an NPOV vio - best to familiarise yourself with policies. It's unfortune for you that this version is solidly supported. 79.71.223.198 (talk) 00:49, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

It was on www.bloodstainedmemoirs.com - and CC'd on all networking sites. Stop trying to confuse people with your lies. STILL. All you are doing is promoting this film further, and making Bret Hart look like a small time diddy every time you post. If you are bret's manager - and due to "her" known reputation for posting in internet forums with an attitude, seems very likley - this must be beyond embarrasing for you. Commoncase (talk) 19:39, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Your agenda continues. Here are some inarguable facts: 1) Cite uses "PROFANE" in bold capital letters, therefore the use of the word is fully supported and inarguable. 2) Cite supports a MySpace blog - the producer's opinion was not given in an interview with a notable TV show or magazine. So stating that the comments were sourced from a MySpace blog is also completely accurate and inarguable. 3) "Strong" is a NPOV violation, quite clearly. Bloodstained memoirs is not a reliable source, as it's not a reliable third-party publication. If you can find a reputable third-party source which supports a "strong" conflict, we'll discuss putting it in. But my first two points are inarguable. Best to discuss any future edits before continuing with your agenda in promoting this DVD. 79.71.223.198 (talk) 19:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

not discussing this any more. myself, and many others have removed the vandal edits. I will continue to do so. The reasoning is above, and i will not waste my time on ignorant people. The fact that you took down heavily cited, and albeit negative for bret hart material elsewhere on the page which paints an event in a far fairer contrast than what was put up SAYS IT ALL. 92.14.250.10 (talk) 15:24, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

And if anybody wanted to talk about the credability of the person highly suspected to be Marcy Englestein, Bret Hart's manager, I would like to point you to "her" edits made in between editing both the Bret Hart, and Bloodstained Memoirs articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/79.71.223.198

Yes, you will notice "she" was editing the page for "Cum Shots". Commoncase (talk) 20:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I see you've been unable to argue the three infallible points I made, which serves only to strengthen my position. Accrediting my edits to Hart's manager is pathetic and desperate. Quite clearly, as can be seen from tracking my IP, my provider is Tiscali UK. I'm simply an editor who disapproves of your childish, biased agenda in pushing Bloodstained Memoirs and deriding Bret Hart. Bret Hart is bigger than the entire project, doesn't needs the project (he released a high-profile WWE DVD only recently which likely sold more in a week than Bloodstained Memoirs will sell until the end of time), and simply couldn't care less what an obscure producer thinks of him. There's no "strong" conflict, only an angry, lonely little man swearing at an international wrestling superstar on his MySpace. Sad. 79.71.223.198 (talk) 23:12, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Is this issue really still going on? Really? As of the time of this edit, the page to me reads fine. As an editor of the Bloodstained Memoirs page in the past, i hope this doesn't mean I am biased. Rolls eyes. Arthur Cutz (talk) 18:42, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Edit warring on this article
This is a warning to all involved to stop edit warring and start discussing your issues with this article. I've protected it for a week this time, please attempt to reach a consensus through discussion. I've noted some accusations of sockpuppetry, too - if you can substantiate them, please raise them at sockpuppet investigations, but do not resume edit warring on that basis. ~ mazca  talk 20:02, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * As it seems the majority of edit-warring was directly caused by Commoncase, who's now been blocked for abusive sockpuppetry (Sockpuppet_investigations/Commoncase), I've tentatively unprotected the article. Please treat this as a strong encouragement to try and address problems rather than edit-warring - if it's a good-faith dispute, discuss it. If you're suspicious that there's dodgy stuff going on, request admin assistance. Edit warring simply doesn't solve anything. Thanks. ~ mazca  talk 21:07, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

In the shawn michaels page, they do not list his 5 star accomplishments because they say that its not a real accomplishment but just a person's own individual rating of a match so I took off Bret Hart's 5 star matches out of the accomplishments section.

Future events warning
Please keep an eye out, rumors circulating that he will return to WWE in some capacity. Watch out for uncited/ poorly cited additions. Sephiroth storm (talk) 17:50, 24 September 2009 (UTC) Bret Hart has signed a contract with WWE saying he will be guest host of monday night raw january 4, 2010. The contract lasts until April 14th. There is a possibility of one more match.

It has been reported by The Sun UK that he has signed a 3 months short term deal to return to WWE to coincide with the debut of Hulk Hogan on TNA. Bret should be debuting the same night. So someone may want to add this to the page or at least have something ready for when he does come back.BlackScreaminMachine (talk) 13:28, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Grandfather?
Does anyone think that it is worth mentioning that Bret will become a grandfather for the first time next year. I just thought it was interesting to know that his daughter Jade is due to give birth on her grandfather's birthday. Just wondering if anyone else feels this way.(MgTurtle (talk) 20:56, 10 October 2009 (UTC))
 * Maybe once she gives birth (something could happen before then, like having a miscarriage, god forbid).  TJ   Spyke   01:46, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Return to WWE
He has officially signed with the WWE so this information should be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.42.115.65 (talk) 01:14, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it's only rumored and shouldn't be mentioned until it's confirmed by WWE or Bret Hart.  TJ   Spyke   01:46, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Return to WWE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.27.49.251 (talk) 04:23, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not rumored, it's just hasn't been "officially" announced by the WWE or Bret Hart, as they are presently working out his return in their on-screen story lines. Every wrestling newsletter is reporting it, including those deemed by the frequent Wikipedia wrestling editors to be reliable sources (Wrestling Observer, PW Torch) and The Sun in the UK (which is a bit tabloidish so I can understand if that isn't considered a reliable resource)and IGN TV. Once again, Wikipedia is at the mercy of editors who don't know the difference between a "rumor" and a valid report on a signing that is intentionally being kept under wraps. --Goosedoggy (talk) 22:29, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

DirectTV have said in their programme guide that Bret will be the guest host of Raw on Jan 4th. Can this be considered a worthy source?

I think personal since the thought of Bret Hart coming back into wrestling was SO never going to happen, that we here on wikipedia actually need to see it, and re watch the footage, OVER, and OVER again, hearing the crowd go insane. THEN we can believe it. i--Dr. Pizza (talk) 06:51, 27 December 2009 (UTC) mean come on, NO ONE, and i mean NO ONE dreamed Bret would come back with HBK around, and yet he is?! All i know is Bret might save WWE if they let him help out on the writing team. And i personal would like his one final match to be against HBK rather then Vince McMahon.

Does bret hart have more than 40 moves?
?????????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.36.61 (talk) 05:00, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Until recently there was a Youtube video which showed 65 of Hart's best moves, which didn't include chest kip-up, enziguiri, cradle, bow and arrow, backslide and so many others. You'll never find the number of Bret Hart's moves in a reliable, independant pulication, for obvious reasons, but yes, he has well over 40 moves. Damone Rhodes (talk) 17:54, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Why nothing about his return
I don't see a section about his return to WWE at all. It should and needs to be noted —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.21.192.131 (talk) 14:14, 10 April 2010 (UTC)