Talk:Brewing/Archive 2

List of Famous Brewers
I think people would enjoy a listing of famous brewers. I owuld be willing to work on it, if somebody will help me. It could be its own wiki page or added to the bottom of the Beer or Brewing pages. User:Echo-two 00:43, 23 April 2010


 * It's a notion worth thinking about. Brewers are currently organised via the category system, which doesn't appeal to everyone. Some people prefer lists - see Categories, lists, and navigation templates for a useful discussion on the matter. There are several difficulties with the notion that would need working on. One is that there are thousands of breweries, which makes creating, maintaining and navigating such a list difficult. The other is the criteria for inclusion. Your initial suggestion uses the term "Famous", which is a vague and subjective term. WikiProject Beer have discussed the notion of inclusion criteria, and based on those discussions I created WP:Breweries, which sums up the consensus of the criteria we came up with - which largely amounts to: If there is enough material from reliable sources to create a standalone article on a brewery, then do so; if there isn't, then either write about the brewery in the appropriate settlement article, or don't write about it at all. If you'd like to continue with this discussion, then I suggest you drop a note on the project talkpage.  SilkTork  *YES! 12:24, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Semi-protection
There's been a recent series of IP attacks, so I have semi-protected the page for one month. Any non-registered account will need to leave a message either here or on my talkpage if they wish to make an edit.  SilkTork  *YES! 17:25, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Mashing/Lautering
The article defines mashing as mixing water and grist in a mash tun, which has a false bottom. This is misleading. Mashing is not essentially a mixing process, but a process of reacting grain with water. Sometimes this occurs in a vessel with a false bottom, sometimes not. Some authors reserve the expression "mash tun" only for a vessel with a false bottom. Others use the term for any mash conversion vessel. The general expression for separating sweet wort from spent grain is "wort separation". The word "lauter" has a dubious pedigree as a verb. Most would accept that the lauter process is one method of wort separation. Mash filtration would be regarded as another. I'm suggesting that the more widely accepted term: "wort separation" be applied instead of lautering, and that the various separation processes be presented in a more orderly way.Dr Thermo (talk) 05:11, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I understand what you are saying in regards to mashing; however, sources do talk about mashing being a process where crushed grains are mixed with water to produce wort. I have just had my copy of The Oxford Companion to Beer delivered, and Paul Buttrick's material on brewing is very useful. He talks about "mixing" in relation to mashing. The expression "mash tun" is usually used for the vessel in which mashing takes place - the false bottom is both traditional and common, but not essential. It's like a copper does not need to be made of copper, and the mash tun doesn't need to be a dedicated vessel. And lautering is a well used and accepted term in brewing, and is what is used in sources. I am going to spend a little more time with this article over the next few weeks to ready it for GA, so any knowledgeable help would be much appreciated. All material, however, must be added along with a reliable source to support what is being said. There have been problems with this article in the past where people were editing based on their personal experience alone, and there were many odd opinions, and not a few mistakes!  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  17:04, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Conditioning
I found this confusing:


 * When the fermentation is complete the brewer may rack the beer into a new tank, called a conditioning tank.[37] Conditioning of the beer is the process in which the beer ages, the flavour becomes smoother, and flavours that are unwanted dissipate.[39] After one to three weeks, the fresh (or "green") beer is run off into conditioning tanks. After conditioning for a week to several months, the beer enters the finishing stage.

This makes it sound like there are two different conditioning processes, but I suspect that's not the case. My guess is you have fermentation followed by conditioning followed by finishing. Can someone familiar with the process fix this? Kendall-K1 (talk) 15:54, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's two statements placed together, so it's repeated information. Thanks for pointing it out.  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  09:52, 30 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for fixing it. Much better. Kendall-K1 (talk) 12:03, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Krausen
Some time back I linked the Vienna bread article to the Kräusen page which at the time existed but now redirects to Brewing. Kräusen was a term also used to described the foamy head that developed on beer during primary fermentation. From greatbrewers.com glossary, "Literally, "crown" in German. Used to refer to the foamy head that builds on top of the beer during fermentation. Today, refers to introduction of unfermented wort to fermented wort to continue or revive fermentation...."  If anyone reads any older literature where the term Krausen is used in the older sense, by not defining all uses of a term in this article, such a redirect can create confusion. I've hopefully fixed the Vienna bread article with a picture from Commons, asserted taken at a German brewery, but this article could use a mention. Alternatively, this article can stay as it is, but then the question is, whom does it benefit? Certainly not anyone with older books or literature or the knowledge gained therefrom. Gzuufy (talk) 15:31, 5 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I understand what you are saying, but if somebody is looking for a definition (or definitions) of a word, then a dictionary is the place, and they can do a Google search such as "define Krausen" or go to their favourite dictionary. If they want more information on the concept of Krausen as it applies to brewing, then the redirect is appropriate. There is no encyclopaedic value in also telling people that the "word" once meant something else unrelated to the current understanding of the "concept". Take a look at Wikipedia is not a dictionary, that explains it in detail.  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  21:24, 5 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Did you happen to see "Wikipedia articles should begin with a good definition..."? Follow that link to the dictionary definition trap. Regarding Krausen, a web search for the term Krausen seems to define it as the foamy head that develops on beer during primary fermentation, or as this article has defined it (I suppose a count of each could be made), that's from just looking at the short snippets following the Google links. I believe linking to a brewing page is appropriate in the section in question of the Vienna bread article, as people who read that may like to know more about how baker's yeast was propagated, though they won't be getting Mautner's precise formula.  But using a word there, one that they won't find here if they follow the link, seems to break the clear communication concept. That is more the thrust of my concern, and less one about policy. It could be that a different word should be used in the Vienna bread article, rephrased somehow, since clarity is so much a part of communication.  Alternatively, perhaps this article should mention it as an alternative meaning.  Now that I've looked at it a little deeper, It's not clear to me the use referring to 'head that develops during primary fermentation' is obsolete, but there may be a schism between a meant-for-consumers definition, and one meant for professionals.


 * It appears that one German-English chemistry glossary defines it as "bloom", which ties the two definitions of Krausen together. This is very similar to proofing (baking technique) where that term is widely meant as related to fermentation, but with respect to baking, the process portion of the terms have no logical overlap, are completely divergent, depending upon the "market" being served by the author and publisher.  Gzuufy (talk) 13:42, 6 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Free ebooks! These two rather old English texts delve into the meaning of Krausen, bold emphasis added by me. First, from 1882, with an emphasis on Vienna brewing, translated from a German work: "We understand by the word Krausen any beer wort in the first stage of fermentation." Also, from the year 1892, a chemical engineering work also translated to English, "The German  term for this phase of the fermentation, das Bier stelit im Krausen, can hardly be expressed in English, but the meaning is the fermentation is in full force; these phenomena continue, with a regularly proceeding fermentation, in full activity for from two to four days, and then gradually subside, there remaining on the surface of the liquid a somewhat brown-coloured film of froth, much contracted, and chiefly consisting of the resinous and oily constituents of hops."


 * I don't have much more time I can allocate to delving into this further, and not understanding the German language is somewhat of a barrier. However, I'm currently believing the use of the term Krausen to refer to the 'head' or 'froth' may have been some kind of misunderstanding, perhaps an oversimplification. Gzuufy (talk) 19:01, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

I've looked at the Vienna bread article, and I see what you are referring to. You wish to explain to the reader the meaning of Krausen in the description of making the bread by linking to an article. The word there is being used to describe the foam or flocculation that occurs during fermentation, and you want to link to an article (or section of an article) that describes that activity. I don't think we have one. Unfortunately neither Flocculation, nor Fermentation (food), nor Foam, nor Beer head, nor Brewing, quite meets the purpose. We are advised to explain WP:Jargon as much as possible in order to assist the reader, so how about putting in a sentence describing the fermenting foam?  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  14:43, 6 November 2012 (UTC)


 * OK, I've made some quick adjustments to the Beer head article and redirected Krausen there, and ensured that Krausening redirects to this article, and a hat note indicating that is placed on the Beer head article. I'll improve and source what I've written shortly. But in the meantime - do you think that works?  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  15:39, 6 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, you understood what I was saying. Your solution seems indirect, as you've noted. It may still be confusing, as a consumer of beer probably wouldn't associate 'yeast production' (the context of its use in Vienna bread) with the after-pouring head in their glass of commercial beer, as much as someone who may drink homebrew with some bitter and dead yeast at the 'bottom of bottle' that occurred due to bottle priming and autolysis, and is perhaps generally familiar with the concept that brewers are literally swimming in excess yeast production, and need to either dispose of, or recycle it, somehow. I suspect 'Krausen' translated to English as 'bloom' relates to a bloom of yeast, the result of the addition of saccarides or an expanding food supply, not the "bloom" that occurs from the release of CO2 or other gas which occurs from depressurization of beer, or the additional gas release from liquid disturbance that occurs from pouring, to say nothing of the understanding of a reader that doesn't yet know anything about beer. I'll probably end up rephrasing the relevant sections of Vienna bread, but the speed of any such changes aren't the critical factor, as much as getting the 'page to page' context to something that is both clear and precise. Deliberation and deeper thought may be called for. I'm distracted today by the U.S. election and some other more mundane tasks, but that is my initial impression.


 * Additionally, I find myself wondering if Wikipedia should have some sort of reader signal that is placed in articles if a link destination or redirect changes, something to alert the reader, as well as any page editors, that the 'page-to-page context' of an existing link may have changed due to new redirection versus that of when the link was originally placed by an editor. Gzuufy (talk) 17:05, 6 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Paste this

importScript('User:Anomie/linkclassifier.js'); //User:Anomie/linkclassifier.js importStylesheet('User:Anomie/linkclassifier.css'); //colours links to show disamb pages, etc


 * into User:Gzuufy/vector.js, and you'll see links display colour shades that indicate information about the destination page, such as if the page is a redirect, an article, or a disambiguation page, if the page is being nominated for deletion, etc. I find it very useful, and wonder how I ever managed without it!  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  21:31, 6 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Gzuufy (talk) 19:01, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Meaning
What is the meaning of Brewing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.218.16.54 (talk) 15:34, 15 November 2012 (UTC)