Talk:Brian Horrocks

Start
I just started this article today and I'm aware it's a bit "bare bones", particularly on his role in Second Alamein and Market Garden. However I don't feel that I know enough about these battles to comment on his involvement. If anyone wants to expand on these I think it would help the article. Leithp 14:28, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Style issue discussion
There is a discussion going on here whether or not the first sentence of a biographical article should contain the full name of the individual and include any post nominal initials (eg. VC, KCB, OBE) or whether these should be relegated to later in the article. I have tried to point out that this is standard style and part of their full titles but there are “readability” concerns. This arose because of the Richard O’Connor featured article and one possible solution, a biobox, is now in place on that page. Please make your opinions known.Dabbler 12:39, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Mission or Expeditionary Force?
Dis Horrocks serve with the British Mission i.e. in a quasi-diplomatic role as Britain did not recognise the Soviet government but had a Mission in Moscow. Or was he in the military British Expeditionary Force that occupied Archangel or Murmansk for a while in 1919-20? Dabbler 19:42, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * At first he was there to co-ordinate supplies to the white armies but later he trained troops for them prior to his capture. He was over in Vladivostock, so pretty far away from Archangel. I've been puzzling over how to get a lot of this stuff into the article without overloading it with anecdotes. Leith p 19:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Grave
I have a question. Does anybody know where Gen. Horrocks is buried? 19th April 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.131.29.11 (talk • contribs).


 * He was cremated but there are two versions I have read of what happened to his ashes before they were belatedly interred this year. This article, citing a Daily Telegraph report (which I have no online subscription to read) states they were left 'at the crematorium near Chichester', but this month's 'Soldier', the magazine of the British Army, states they were left at "a Chichester funeral home" [ie undertakers premises] for nearly 40 years. Note that funeral directors often on request keep ashes on their premises, under registration, usually so that at a later date they can be scattered or interred alongside those of a surviving relative. There is a crematorium at Chichester which was in existence by the time of his death.Cloptonson (talk) 05:20, 17 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Thank you. 92.232.42.3 (talk) 21:44, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Additional refs
Initial London Gazette search to confirm promotions, decorations and honours, sarch on fullname, also need to search on combinations of names and initials, and service number. David Underdown (talk) 16:14, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's an odd one:
 * he was promoted to lieutenant while a prisoner? Leithp 20:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * he was promoted to lieutenant while a prisoner? Leithp 20:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Sort of connected to that, when was Horrocks captured? I'm having some difficulty in establishing when exactly the Battle of Armentières was, although I'm assuming it was the end of October, early November.  Since Horrocks was regular army, wouldn't his promotion to Lieutenant have been based on his length of service, plus presumably taking his capture into account which explains the backdating of his promotion.  --Harlsbottom (talk|library) 20:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * 21st October. I'll add the ref. Leithp 20:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, just to clarify, he was captured then. According to this the battle was 13th October to 2nd November. Leithp 21:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Out of interest, is there any "source" out there about Horrock's participation in The World at War - I imagine that a large portion of any of the populace acquainted with Horrocks would have first heard of him when he appeared on that. --Harlsbottom (talk|library) 23:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The IMDB perhaps? Is that a reliable source? Leithp 12:49, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * IMDB's reliability seems to fluctuate. The Times might have interviewed him about his involvement or to discuss his status as a TV personality (Google News Archive is tantalisingly close and yet, the moment a $ sign is visible, so far). A request at WP:MHL could address this. SoLando (Talk) 17:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Horrocks first appeared on television before The World at War presenting a number of BBC programmes on famous battles and personalities, e.g.,  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.55.68 (talk) 12:25, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Olympics
''On his return to the United Kingdom Horrocks looked for something else to occupy his time and decided to take up the modern pentathlon. He competed in army tournaments and, eventually, the 1924 Paris Olympics''

Do we know how well he did ? JS1 (talk) 06:51, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I just checked The Times - he didn't make the podium at any rate. Gold went to a Finn, Silver to a Hungarian and Bronze to an American.  --Harlsbottom (talk|library) 08:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * This website says he finished 19th of 38. I'll try and see if I can find any verification for that. Leithp 18:05, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * That sounds about right, considering in A Full Life he writes he finished "well down in the order of merit". Speaking of which how in the hell are his memoirs available for download?  There has to be some sort of copyright restriction on his work, even in the United States, surely. --Harlsbottom (talk) 12:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Given that website is well referenced, I think I might just use it to give the placing. As for the copyright status of Horrocks' autobiography, I have no idea. Leithp 13:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Brigadier
Should it not read Acting rank of Brigadier, not temporary rank ?

Brigadier along with Lance Corporal in the British Army are Appointments was this the same during WW II does anyone know ? or is this just a quirk of my regiment which was a Cavalry Regiment. JS1 (talk) 07:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe Brigadier is now a substantive rank (just as is commodore in the RN), I'm not quite sure of the position in WWII, but this is the entry relating to Horrocks in London Gazette no. 35205 (see the notes section for a link)

The undermentioned Cols. (temp. Brigs.) to be Comdrs. and are granted the actg. rank of Maj.-Gen.: —

A. F. P. Christison, M.C. (9487). 17th June 1941.

B. G. Horrocks, M.C. (5821). 27th June 1941.


 * I do think that it is indeed temporary - all references in literature I've seen on Brigadier-General and Brigadier use the term "temporary", while the London Gazette seems to exclusively use "temp. rank of Brigadier" or somesuch. --Harlsbottom (talk|library) 10:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Some of the other Gazettes used inthe article do actually have acting Brigadier. I suspect it depends whether the appointment was made purely by the local CinC, or if it was confirmed by the War Office.  David Underdown (talk) 11:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The term 'acting' denotes promotion 'in the field' and as such it signifies the awaiting of official confirmation and gazetting of the promotion by the War Office back in the UK. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.247.9 (talk) 13:06, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

MC
I've finally tracked down his MC (the OCR process used when the Gazettes were scanned had rendered his surname as Hoxrocks which is why it was a little tricky to find), his MC is amongst a batch awarded

"in recognition of gallant conduct and determination displayed in escaping or attempting to escape from captivity, which services have been brought to notice in accordance with the terms of Army Order 193 of 1919. To be dated 5th May, 1919, unless otherwise stated: —"

Since the only mentions of escape attempts are in relation to his time as a POW of the Germans, I've assumed that this relates to that period, rather than that of his capture by the Russians, although timewise that would fit better. Do any of the more general references about him cover this (the ODNB is no clearer). David Underdown (talk) 14:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * He didn't attempt to escape in Russia, so it would have been whilst a German POW. Leithp 16:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

GA Review
1 Well written Pass

There were a few minor punctuation mistakes present in the article. I've already gone through and made a quick copyedit of that stuff. Other than that, the prose of the article is excellent. No objection here!

2 Factual accuracy MINOR FAIL

Although generally well-cited, there are a few sections in which the density is low. Of particular note are the first two paragraphs of the "Europe" section, which are either scantily cited, or not cited at all.
 * Other than that moderately-sized issue, the rest of the article is very-well cited.

3 Coverage PASS

Coverage is very broad, quite detailed, and very comprehensive. You've done an excellent job on this section!

4 Neutrality PASS

The article is written from quite a neutral point of view. I have gone over the article in-depth for the last hour, and I see no signs of advocacy and/or bias. No objections here.

5 Stability PASS

Other than the combining of footnotes (which I fully understand is a large process, I had to do much the same thing recently), there is no evidence of massive-editing or edit-warring between contributors.

6 Images PASS

All images are appropriately tagged with copyright status, are well-used, and do nothing to detract from the article. No objections here.

As a result, I have placed the article On Hold. As mentioned, most of the issues that need to be addressed are pretty minor, and are probably capable of being solved relatively quickly. Feel free to message me on my Talk-Page if you've got any questions. I look forward to continuing this review-process with you. Cheers! Cam (Chat) 03:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've also gone through and done some more quick copyediting. Hope that helps.
 * Just checked the history, noticed you've been adding some more refs. If you can increase the density in the second paragraph of "Europe", I think we should be fine. Cheers! Cam (Chat) 05:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that should be it for now. Let me know what you think. Leithp 06:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * From first glance, yes. I'll do a check later when I've got time to spare, and then do the final evaluation.  Cheers! Cam (Chat) 23:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That should do it. GA Passed.  Congratulations on your hard work! Cheers! Cam (Chat) 03:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Featured
Just a quick note to acknowledge all the work that everyone has put in to get this to featured status. Thanks to: SoLando, Finetooth, David Underdown, EyeSerene, Roger Davies, Ian Rose, Harlsbottom, Kirrages, Climie.ca and all the others whose edits, reviews and constructive criticism helped drag the prose out of the mire, sort out the references, ensure compliance with the MOS, and bring the article up to FA standard. Three cheers to all of you! Leithp 15:45, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Big congrats to you Leith - well done! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:35, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup - good work all, and thanks Leithp ;) EyeSerene talk 07:24, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Consolidated refs
I was horrified to find a ref with 9 citations from the LG in it. Since the ref related to 5 different appointments I decided to split them up. However, I got this message on my Talk page:"Your last edit broke a number of the references - you must have lost a closing tag along the way, I couldn't spot where it was, so I've reverted you. As I recall it was a deliberate decision during the process of reaching FA that led to the references being aggregated in the first place, so it might be better to discuss it before starting to split them up again. David Underdown (talk) 10:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)"

Fair enough, but I still think 9 citations consolidated is a horror. So I'm going to re-do the split, grouping the citations by appointment and trying to get the syntax right this time!) so that everyone can see what it looks like. If the consensus dislikes it, we can revert. Also I will try to find the correct LG citation for staff college instructor (Horrocks is not mentioned in the 9th citation as far as I can see. Ah I see, it's on the second page of the quoted range. I'll fix that). Regards Stephen Kirragetalk - contribs 11:16, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The refs were consolidated like that in order to meet an objection in the review process. To be honest, I prefer them like that anyway as I find more than one ref per sentence tends to hamper readability. At least one WP:Milhist editor, who is the author of a number of FAs, consolidates all his refs into one per paragraph. That might be taking it a little far, though. Leithp 18:03, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Irish War of Independence
Is the correct name for the conflict in question,it is occasionally referred to as the Anglo Irish War but only in Britian in the immediate aftermath of the conflict. So I believe we should use Irish War of Independence Finnegas (talk) 20:29, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay. Do you have a reference for that? As I mentioned, I used the name of the conflict used in one of the sources when writing the article. Leithp 07:08, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the delay in replying sources no problem

Finnegas (talk) 14:54, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * ""History of Ireland’s War of Independence changed by Kerry students"" Irish Central
 * ""Soldiers KIA War of Independence"" IrishMedals.org
 * ""Conflicts in Ireland The  Irish  War  of Independence 1919- 1922""


 * I looked up a general history encyclopedia I have, to see if it's just the Horrocks source, but The Oxford Companion to Military History ISBN0198606966 refers to the conflict as "Anglo-Irish War". Encyclopedia Britannica uses "Anglo-Irish War (Irish War of Independence, 1919–21)". As it is, I'm inclined to leave the article as per the sources. Leithp 16:53, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

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Working in the House of Commons
In the Early Life and First World War section it states "Years later, working in the House of Commons", however, the only role he appears to have from the rest of the article is Black Rod, which is role within the House of Lords and not the HoC. Did he hold another role or should this be amended to House of Lords? --White&#38;BlueWasp (talk) 14:46, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Date conflict
He seems to have been captured by the Red Army before he arrived in Russia: "In 1919 Horrocks was posted to Russia as part of the Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War. After landing at Vladivostok on 19 April, ..." but also "He was captured by the Red Army on 7 January 1919...". Housecarl (talk) 12:59, 4 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Good spot. Seems he was captured in January 1920, arriving in Krasnoyarsk shortly after the city came under control of the revolutionaries. 213.205.198.203 (talk) 20:39, 4 January 2019 (UTC)