Talk:Brian Kelly (chess player)

Contest Candidate for Speedy Deletion
I don't fully understand why this page was listed for speedy deletion, the reason given is bio. As far as I know biography is not a reason for deletion, nor is biology for that matter. If somebody requests its speddy deletion they could at least concisely explain why.

Brian Kelly was the third player in Ireland to obtain IM status. As far as Irish Chess players go he is pretty significant.
 * I removed the tag as no real reason was given- it may be for notability, but who knows. Astrotrain 16:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I added the speedy tag, this article has been created before and deleted. The only references where from chess league scoreboards. --Vintagekits 16:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Could you explain why you want to delete the current page though? I mean it's referenced from 3 other pages in wikipedia and is about to have 3 references. Brian has had a moderately interesting life, slightly more noteworthy than some other chess players out there. Although I admit it might not be the most wild and exciting article ever in the world.--ZincBelief 16:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I also agree he is notable after a quick google search. He also meets the critera of WP:BIO- as he has won significant awards in his field, and has a large fan base. Astrotrain 16:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I added the speedy delete tab when there was no reference, also remember that this article has been deleted before. I think there is a procedure that you need to go through first before you can restart this article instead of just restarting it. Point note I have nothing personal against this article and hope you provide loads of items of note from WP:RS regards--Vintagekits 16:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for those kind wishes. The article will be suitably sourced as it moves out from stub status, rest assured. Could you please indicate if you want to keep this article as a candidate for speedy deletion? I am unaware of any policy on applying for permission to recreate pages that were once deleted myself. --ZincBelief 16:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I will remove it for now but I would like to see some mainstream sources and much of the information looks like it comes from personal homepages. Are his victorious credited of the Chess Olympiad official website? Did he get any depth of press coverage from these vitories? --Vintagekits 16:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The notability criteria for athletes suggests the page is perfectly reasonable. Chess isn't quite a sport of course, but this is one of Ireland's all time chess greats. Don't really see the point of your last two questions. --ZincBelief 16:57, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The only claim to notability is from a "chesscafe" where someone mentions in an interview that he is a "very fine player" - that does not confer notability. The reason for the last two questions are 1. this would show for a reliable source his achivement and 2. if he is discussed in depth in a recognised source then this would help prove his own notability.--Vintagekits 17:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * He is the only Irish player to win a medal in the Olympiad, he has acheived the best ever score of an irish player in the british championship. He has been irish and ulster champions. All of these give some notoriety in the field of chess. i'm inclined to think you're just trolling though.
 * Firstly I do not appriciate the breach of WP:AGF and WP:NPA - and on that note that is pretty much the end of the conversation. If this is nominated for AfD I will be !voting delete.--Vintagekits 21:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Having looked at your record on wikipedia, I no longer assumed good faith.--ZincBelief 21:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, so you have been following my campaign against chess players!?!?--Vintagekits 22:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You have been banned from using wikipedia and seem to enjoy going around putting nn tags on things. If you'd provided what I found to be a reasonable explanation for why you wanted the page deleted I might have believed you. When I put everything together I don't though. --ZincBelief 22:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Brian, I can understand why you may be defensive about a page you have written about yourself, however, I assure you that the tag was left in good faith when you added some references I removed the speedy delete tag - therefore showing that the tag was left in good faith. Saying that, I still do not consider the article notable and I do not appriciate your tone and accusation where which are a breach of WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF and WP:NPA. regards--Vintagekits 10:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not Brian, and I haven't written the page myself. I assumed good faith up to a point, but having read your talk page, considered your activity on wikipedia, noted that you were banned for a time, I thought better of it.--ZincBelief 10:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * So you admit that you are not assuming good faith! If I was not acting in good faith would I have removed the speedy tag? Considering your reaction to good faith edits and that in the article it states Brian won the Ulster Chass Chamionship, went to Methody and plays "Go" and your edits are largely on Brian Kelly, the Ulster Chess Chamionship, Methody College and the board game called "Go" - this would strongly suggest that you are Brian Kelly. Now instead of bickering have you kept any of your press clipping from recognised newspaper in Ireland or Britain which would help prove your notability. regards--Vintagekits 11:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Your assertions and conclusions are bogus, go back under your bridge before the sun rises.--ZincBelief 11:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * This is the final time that I will request that observe both WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. --Vintagekits 11:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I have explained my point of view on the matter. It is not currently my intention to leaf through internet archives to find mention of Brian Kelly's exploits in newspapers. When compared to other articles on chess players I believe the page stands favourably on its own merit. I am not interested in discussing my opinion of you here. I am only interested in discussing the article.--ZincBelief 12:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If you are not prepared to work to prove his notability why start the article and why expect others to accept his notability without proof from a source that satisfies both WP:V and WP:RS. 2. To start that he is more or less notable than other articles is a poor argument to keep this article. 3. You state that "I am not interested in discussing my opinion of you here" well why bring your opinion of my into this when I was merely discussing the article. Your attitude and bad faith replies are wearing out my good faith and although I note that you have only had a limited number of edits on wiki I am seriously considering reporting your conduct here in relation to the reason I have outlined above. Please stop your attacks and focus on proving the notability of the article (once again I would highlight that this article was deleted within that past few months also). regards--Vintagekits 12:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There is nothing wrong with the sources provided. One is from the president of the Ulster Chess Union and what used to serve as the Ulster Chess Union's website. One is FIDE, the international body. One is from Mark Orr, an Irish Chess International, and the first Irish IM. One is from Tim Harding, a respected Chess Journalist. One is the official Irish Chess Union website. One is from MSO world, the mind sports olympiad, a perfectly respectable publication in its own right. Brian Kelly is linked to from 3 other pages in wikipedia. One can make a case that he is the second greatest Irish chess player of all time (my POV). Wikipedia is a community effort, I created an article from what was a dead link. Others may wish to flesh out the article, I am reasonably happy with it in its current state. There is no onus on me to prove his notability. I don't see anyone else calling into question the sources provided, or demanding its deletion, or questioning its notability. Astrotrain has already indicated he feels the article to be worth keeping. You have stated your POV on the article, I do not understand why you keep restating it. If you have something new to say on the article I will listen with interest.--ZincBelief 13:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not going to go into what Astrotrains motive were or were not, I will let you do your own investigation into that. I would just like to remind you that the article had been deleted before and this is how the article looked when I added the speedy tags and when you added more references I removed the speedy tag - that is the actions of someone that is acting in bad faith. As I have already outlined above, as a chess player myself, I hope you can provide evidence of his notability and I do not understand the attitude you are taking against my within this discussion. regards--Vintagekits 15:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You have stated all this before. Having read the policy in wikipedia on deletion I can find no reason to delete the article in its current state. I welcome all positive contributions to it.--ZincBelief 15:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Rating
http://www.icu.ie/ratings/list.php?filter=Kelly&list=200609&club=&sort=rating is one link that shows Brian Kelly's rating. He currently occupies Board 2 for Ireland. This is behind the originally Russian, but now Irish, Alexander Baburin, Grandmaster. The references I provided to seem to me to allow any user to find out that he is the strongest player in Ireland at the minute. (Barring Alexander Baburin) and the article by Tim Harding gives an historical overview. Don't forget that only Mark Orr, Mark Heidenfeld and Mark Quinn have ever obtained the IM title, Brian has a higher rating than all of them. If you would like more information please discuss here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ZincBelief (talk • contribs) 12:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
 * I've amended the article to reflect the September 2006 date, as he doesn't appear in the January 2007 list anyway. One Night In Hackney 303 12:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, the rating list for january only includes people who played in a tournament from nov/dec/jan. So it might be a little misleading overall. A fide rating list might be available to give a better indication.--ZincBelief 12:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

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Move discussion in progress
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