Talk:Bright young things

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Slightly TOO detailed?
Whilst the hard work put in to expanding this article- I believe undertaken mostly (if not entirely) by Elisa Rolle- is praiseworthy and impressive, I cannot but feel that the key personages in this group are now buried amongst innumerable other people who were barely involved at all (as indicated by one-off newspaper articles making reference to them in many cases), to the extent that an interested individual, on coming to this article, would likely be overwhelmed by the list of names and not know what to do with it all. I think a top section- listing a set of names like that in the 13th January 2018 edit- would be beneficial, as it gives the names of the first- and second-tier (i.e. most prominently involved/ generally famous) people that participated in the whole thing. I have the impression that when one goes to the article of, for example, Helen D'Abernon (who would have been about sixty at the time), and not one single mention of her involvement in the Bright Young Things appears, her involvement cannot really have been that major, and so there's little benefit to equating her with people like Babe Plunkett-Greene or Elizabeth Ponsonby, who organised numerous events and appear in virtually every source on the subject, or their notable contemporaries with whom they associated, like Anthony Powell, Inez Holden, etc etc. I mean, Clement Attlee? A hedonistic 1920s aristocrat-about-town? I think not! Attendance at one bash does not a Bright Young Person make, for my money. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.201.11 (talk) 23:03, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Book titles
Per MOS:ITALIC, all the book titles in the "Characterization" column should really be in italics. I'll probably get around to doing it eventually, unless anyone else is feeling keen? DH85868993 (talk) 06:43, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Done. DH85868993 (talk) 13:33, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

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Basis of inclusion
The basis of inclusion in the "List of 'Bright Young Things' and their associates" needs clarification. A substantial number of those in the list don't seem to have a real reason for inclusion.

The opening sentence states that the term "Bright Young Things" "was a nickname given by the tabloid press to a group of Bohemian young aristocrats and socialites in 1920s London", but many in this long list are hardly what would have been considered young in the 1920s. A number appear to be listed on the basis of them being the hosts or hostesses of some of the events that the BYTs attended, but inclusion on this basis would mean that pretty much any member of the high society or the aristocracy could be included. A number appear to be listed because they were caricatured by Antony Wysard, but not all of his caricatures are of BYTs and many of them are from the 1930s. Some are listed because they were in Cecil Beaton's Book of Beauty, but this lists some classical beauties from an earlier age as well and others from outside Britain. Some seem to be listed because they were the basis of characters in Anthony Powells A Dance to the Music of Time novels, but that sequence covers a period from the 1920s to the 1970s and only the first couple of books and parts oo two others are set in the 1920s, a number of the characters referenced don't appear until later in the narrative or have been aged to make them older than the real life inspiration (e.g. both Mark Members and Pamela Flitton are older than Stephen Spender and Barbara Skelton):

Based on age, the following do not seem eligible for BYT classification:


 * Helen D'Abernon was 54 in 1920, 53 in 1929
 * Margot Asquith was 56 in 1920, 65 in 1929 - she was also the wife of the former Prime Minister, so not really a socialite
 * Stanley Baldwin was 53 in 1920, 62 in 1929 - he was Prime Minister for half of the 1920s and leader of the opposition for most of the rest of the decade, so not really a socialite
 * Arnold Bennett was 53 in 1920, 62 in 1929
 * Robert Bridges was 76 in 1920, 85 in 1929
 * Julian Byng was was 58 in 1920, 67 in 1929
 * Lina Cavalieri was 46 in 1920, 55 in 1929 - Italian and does not appear to have lived in London
 * Neville Chamberlain was 51 in 1920, 60 in 1929 - he was a minister under Stanley Baldwin, including being Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1923, so not really a socialite
 * Edna Woolman Chase was 43 in 1920, 52 in 1929 - was American and lived in New York
 * Winston Churchill was 46 in 1920, 55 in 1929 - he was Secretary of State for War from 1920 to 1921, Secretary of State for the Colonies from 1921 to 1922 and Chancellor of the Exchequer from 1924 to 1929, so not really a socialite
 * Emerald Cunard was 48 in 1920, 57 in 1929
 * Aubrey Dean Paul was 51 in 1920, 60 in 1929
 * Eleonora Duse was 82 in 1920 and died in 1924 - Also does not seem to have lived in London
 * Edward Elgar was 63 in 1920, 72 in 1929
 * Roger Fry was 54 in 1920, 63 in 1929
 * Herbert Gardner was 74 in 1920 and died in 1921
 * Daisy Greville was 59 in 1920, 68 in 1929
 * Alfred Harmsworth was 55 in 1920 and died in 1922
 * William Joynson-Hicks was 55 in 1920, 64 in 1929


 * Lillie Langtry was 67 in 1920 and died in 1929
 * Hazel Lavery was 50 in 1920 and 59 in 1929
 * Susan Lawrence was 49 in 1920, 58 in 1929
 * Rosa Lewis was 53 in 1920, 62 in 1929
 * Ramsay MacDonald was 54 in 1920, 63 in 1929 - he was Prime Minister twice in the decade and does not fit the description of a socialite
 * Violet Manners was 64 in 1920, 73 in 1929
 * Nellie Melba was 59 in 1920, 68 in 1929
 * Vaughan Nash was 59 in 1920, 68 in 1929
 * Hubert Parry died in 1918
 * William Parsons died in 1918
 * Kennerley Rumford was 50 in 1920 and 59 in 1929
 * Princess Helena Victoria of Schleswig-Holstein was 50 in 1920 and 59 in 1929
 * F. E. Smith was 48 in 1920 and 51 in 1929 - He was a cabinet minister
 * Philip Snowden was 56 in 1920 and 65 in 1929
 * Albert Stanley was 46 in 1920 and 55 in 1929 - He was a former cabinet minister and chairman of the London Underground
 * Gertrude Stein was 46 in 1920 and 55 in 1929 - She also lived in Paris, so how she fits the list is unclear
 * J. H. Thomas was 46 in 1920 and 55 in 1929 - a trade unionist - does not seem to fit the category of socialite
 * Francis Fortescue Urquhart was 52 in 1920 and 61 in 1929
 * Elise de Wolfe was 61 in 1920 and 70 in 1929 - American living in New York
 * Georgina Ward was 74 in 1920 and died in 1929
 * Arthur Waugh was 56 in 1920 and 65 in 1929
 * Pamela Wyndham was 49 in 1920 and 58 in 1929

The following seem to be too young to meet the criteria:


 * Baba Beaton was 8 in 1920 and 17 in 1929
 * Nancy Beaton was 11 in 1920 and 20 in 1929
 * Caroline Blackwood was not born until 1931
 * Guy Burgess was 9 in 1920, 18 in 1929
 * Kenneth Carten was 9 in 1920, 18 in 1929
 * Georgina Curzon was 10 in 1920, 19 in 1929
 * Elizabeth Douglas-Scott-Montagu was 11 in 1920, 20 in 1929
 * Michael Foot was 7 in 1929 and 16 in 1929
 * Valerie French was 11 in 1920, 20 in 1929
 * Oonagh Guinness was 10 in 1920, 19 in 1929
 * Pamela Harriman was born in 1920 and 9 in 1929
 * Deirdre Hart-Davis was 11 in 1920, 20 in 1929
 * Wanda Holden was 9 in 1920, 18 in 1929
 * Elizabeth Jane Howard was born in 1923 and 6 in 1929
 * George Lascelles was born in 1923 and 6 in 1929
 * Dorothy Lygon was 8 in 1920 and 17 in 1929
 * Mary Lygon was 10 in 1920 and 19 in 1929
 * Julian MacLaren-Ross was 8 in 1920 and 17 in 1929
 * Deborah Mitford was born in 1920 and 9 in 1929
 * Diana Mitford was 10 in 1920 and 19 in 1929


 * Jessica Mitford was 3 in 1920 and 12 in 1929
 * Tom Mitford was 11 in 1920, 20 in 1929
 * Unity Mitford was 6 in 1920, 15 in 1929
 * Ivan Moffat was 2 in 1920, 11 in 1929
 * Desmond Parsons was 10 in 1920 and 19 in 1929
 * Bridget Poulett was 8 in 1920 and 17 in 1929
 * Violet Powell was 8 in 1920 and 17 in 1929
 * Terence Rattigan was 9 in 1920, 18 in 1929
 * Barbara Skelton was 4 in 1920, 13 in 1929
 * Pamela Smith was 5 in 1920, 14 in 1929
 * Stephen Spender was 11 in 1920, 20 in 1929
 * Julian Symons was 8 in 1920 and 17 in 1929
 * Barbara Waring was 9 in 1920, 18 in 1929
 * Peter Wentworth-Fitzwilliam was 10 in 1920, 19 in 1929
 * Harold Wilson was 4 in 1920, 13 in 1929
 * Alastair Windsor was 6 in 1920, 15 in 1929
 * Anna May Wong was 15 in 1920, 24 in 1929, but does not appear to have arrived in London until 1929

Others whose inclusion needs explanation:


 * Rosamond Pinchot - American, no indication that she was ever in London
 * Mona von Bismarck - American, no indication that she was ever in London. Beaton's book says in her entry (under Mrs Harrison Williams) "the most subtle beauty I have ever seen in America"
 * Clara Bow - American, no indication that she was ever in London
 * Luisa Casati - Italian, does not appear to have lived in London until 1930
 * Irene Castle - American, no indication that she was in London in the 1920s
 * Nancy Cunard - Live in Paris in the 1920s
 * Marion Davies - American, lived in New York and California
 * Lya De Putti - Hungarian, appears to have lived in New York
 * Gaby Deslys - French, died in 1920
 * John Fothergill - publican
 * Greta Garbo - does not appear to have been in London, seems to be the opposite of a socialite
 * Lillian Gish - American, no indication that she was ever in London


 * Jobyna Howland - American, no indication that she was ever in London
 * Alice de Janzé - American, lived in Paris and Kenya
 * Alexander Korda - Does not appear to have come to England until 1932
 * Marie Laurencin - French, no indication that she was ever in London
 * Marjorie Oelrichs - American, no indication that she was ever in London
 * Gina Palerme - French, had spent time in London In the 1910s, but was in Paris in the 1920s
 * Gaston Palewski - French civil servant and politician, who appears to have been in Paris in most of the the 1920s
 * Gabrielle Ray - her life does not sound like that of a socialite
 * Sophie Tucker - American, who visited, but not a socialite
 * Alice White - American, no indication that she was ever in London
 * Ellen Wilkinson - Member of parliament, does not sound like a socialite, though she was a socialist :)
 * Elinor Wylie - American, living in New York

The list needs a good pruning.--DavidCane (talk) 16:01, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I have removed all of those above in the first two groups, though a number of others remain that don't appear to belong.--DavidCane (talk) 12:47, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid any edits you have been made have been reinstated. And so we have the elderly Elgar and babe-in-arms George Lascelles back in the list. Quite what "their associates" in the list heading is meant to mean is anyone's guess, other than allow allcomers to join it. Augustusr (talk) 16:08, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * As of 2023 MANY in the list were never BYTs. It was a fairly small group - reading newspaper articles of the time - very few of these names occur. I think the article needs to define the group by age/documented behaviors etc. I am not sure why folks would add many of these individuals. BeingObjective (talk) 05:22, 22 October 2023 (UTC)


 * I just came across this list - wanted to note that we have Leo Amery (who was in his fifties and a Cabinet minister in the 1920s) as well as his son John (who might be a bit young for the group, but is at least more plausible). Harold Wilson is also quite an odd inclusion - throughout the 1920s he was still a scholarship boy at school in Huddersfield, so even allowing for age he definitely doesn't seem to fit the cultural mileu. Andrew Gray (talk) 11:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

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