Talk:Bring Us Together

Known for only one event

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was moved to Bring Us Together Aervanath (talk) 17:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

This seems to be a biography of a living person known for only one event. Per WP:ONEEVENT, I wonder if this couldn't be incorporated into a related article, such as First inauguration of Richard Nixon or United States presidential election, 1968, or repurposed to become an article on something like "Bring Us Together Again". --Orlady (talk) 18:51, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Possibly, but I think it is better here. She got considerable coverage until after the inauguration in January, and newspapers were interviewing her as late as 1977 for her views on Nixon.  That should cover the persistance angle.  I don't think it would be worth more than a line in the 1968 campaign article.  This girl was the Joe the Plumber of her day.  Still, are there precedents?--Wehwalt (talk) 18:57, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Sure, there's plenty of precedents -- for example, when a biographical article about a nonnotable victim of a notable crime is repurposed to become an article about the crime. It impresses me that what's notable about this is not Vicki's biography, but the story of the sign, the slogan, and its impact. Indeed, many articles about this story don't include her name or mention it only in passing -- which is basically what the WP policy says to do. I am thinking that the article should be refocused and retitled as Bring us together again -- an article about the slogan. Bill Safire's article about the phrase in this online book and the discussion in this other online book have both influenced my thinking and provided additional sources. Her biography (cut down from the current version) could be part of the story, but should not be the main focus. You're right that she has continued to get a surprising amount of news coverage through the years, so she's relevant to the story (and I think that the DYK hook could remain as is), but I still don't see her as the main story. --Orlady (talk) 21:23, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Interesting that Safire gets her name wrong. I'm not going to go to war over a hook, I do DYK more for my amusement than anything else, my focus is usually at FAC.  I'm going to give this some thought and look over my Nixon references.  I think you make a solid point that this could be a better article as Bring us together.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:52, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * FWIW, Safire's not the only one to get her name wrong. A couple of my ghits were news articles that spelled her first name "Vickie" (less serious than Safire's error, but still an error). --Orlady (talk) 23:51, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you are probably right, and will work over the article in my copious spare time. I'll let the hook run though because it is going to take some time (I have things which are higher priorities, honestly) and I'd like readers to see a cohesive article if they click on the name.  Whatever the kid's name is.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:12, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The article struck me as a little weird too. (I saw the DYK.) I would vote for it to be renamed "Bring us together again." Some of the personal details about her could be taken out and her name be a redirect. Steve Dufour (talk) 16:10, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * p.s. It seems like she helped Nixon get elected. Joe the Plumber helped McCain lose. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 16:11, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) kinda considering leaving this be, but doing a separate article on "Bring us together" ...--Wehwalt (talk) 16:15, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I see you requested a move; suggest you amend to "Bring us together" rather than "again".--Wehwalt (talk) 16:19, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree. That seems like the more notable expression.Steve Dufour (talk) 16:25, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Might be better to have two articles, one on the girl and one on the slogan. This is a Joe the Plumber sort of thing, and I think she is notable.  Just because they didn't have cable in 1968 didn't mean this wasn't a big deal.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:24, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I was about to flag this for non-notability, but see there's already been some discussion of this. In addition, there's a privacy concern. Is it really necessary for Wikipedia to ensure that any Google search on her name hereafter will take the user to a discussion of this one incident, occurring when she was thirteen years old? The general ethical issue is discussed at http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2009_05_10-2009_05_16.shtml#1242179591 192.12.184.2 (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * If people feel that way I agree, as I generally do about privacy issues and so forth on WP. In this case I don't think it's any real problem, there is nothing wrong with what she did or anything negative about her in the article. Steve Dufour (talk) 16:25, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree with Steve. And jeez, dude, if she is still alive, she's 54.  I don't wnt to get into the specifics of the horrible example in that blog, but we have articles on Elian Gonzalez affair, and Jeffrey Maier.  I would agree with a higher standard in dealing with a minor, but we use common sense too.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Who's who?
It says: " ...January 1977, working as a loan teller at a bank in that town. She was then the sole support of her family, with her husband unemployed. Rev. Cole left the ministry out of disillusionment and turned to selling small airplanes." Is this talking about Vicki or her mom? It says "her husband" and then "Rev. Cole" who was Vicki's dad. Steve Dufour (talk) 16:33, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Vicki, of course. The info about Rev. Cole isn't strictly relevant, I guess, but I figured it was worth including.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:14, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I took off the sentence about her dad's career. It seemed like kind of a distraction. I still support renaming the article and taking out some of the info on Vicki that's not related to the sign incident and later developments of that. Steve Dufour (talk) 13:48, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I won't put it back. I would like to keep the article and see one about Bring Us Together, but if there's a consensus for a move, I'll certainly do the necessary work on the rewrite.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think two articles, or this one as it is for that matter, would do any harm to any one. However please consider if there is anything of interest to a general reader about her life except what's related to "Bring Us Together." Steve Dufour (talk) 14:01, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It looks like only 3 people expressed an opinion. If you agree that there is a consensus to rename the article to "Bring Us Together" and remove personal information I will go ahead and do that. If not, leaving the article as it is is not a problem for me. Steve Dufour (talk) 16:55, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I think consensus is a bit more than that.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:55, 16 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't know how we can get more people interested. But like I said, if you don't agree I will not move the article, since you seem like the person who is most involved with the article. Steve Dufour (talk) 19:11, 16 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The RM will attract more people, probably.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:21, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Joe the Plumber
Whatever else happens, I'd like to see the mention of Joe taken off the article. If someone compared, say, George Bush to Napoleon you wouldn't put that in Napoleon's article. Steve Dufour (talk) 16:55, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that's apples and oranges. This is more like comparing Jeffrey Maier with Steve Bartman.  Caught up in a presidential race/result through no fault of her own.  As far as I can tell, the Coles made no attempt to make any money off the situation, unlike Joe Wurzelhoffheimcratzskishire.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:32, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Should we take off the mention of Joe then? Steve Dufour (talk) 16:38, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you are being overly picky, but I'd have no objection to Joe as a see also.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:20, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I took him out of the intro but left him in the body. Steve Dufour (talk) 22:07, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Rewrite
I'll probably rewrite this article tomorrow to fit the new title. Anyone else is free to jump in first.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:51, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Vicki's first choice
Wehwalt, I see this is a feature article, but there's no reason for you to immediately delete my contribution regarding Vicki's well-documented first choice, Robert Kennedy. Your undo summary says "there's no question" about this fact, but that is a misleading argument: you do not mention the fact in your rewrite at all. At the time, it was seen as an embarassing disclosure for Nixon, and played a part in his dropping of the slogan. There is nothing "POV" about the addition of this fact whatsoever. I added it carefully into the article text, using completely impartial language. My contribution is relevant and fully referenced from a highly-regarded book by award-winning journalists: your removal of it is completely unjustified. SteveStrummer (talk) 05:40, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The whole part about it costing Nixon personal advantage is highly POV.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:45, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Now a FA in Chinese Wikipedia
I have translated this article to Chinese Wikipedia here and promoted to FA status, and I want to thank User:Wehwalt for his effort to write this amazing article. --Jarodalien (talk) 08:29, 11 January 2016 (UTC)